Sierra Nevada Otra Vez

[wapitiscat]

Just had Otra Vez this weekend. I was always afraid of Gose since I thought they would be too salty. Now, this is labeled as Gose-style so may not be representative of the style. Does anyone know of a clone recipe floating around. I found this at the Northern Brewer forum and it looks like a good start. I can probably source some prickly pear pads locally but have no idea how to process and/or use them in a recipe.

EDIT - As I was drinking this beer over the weekend I had sort of a flashback to a golf outing where the beer on course was free and you could have anything you wanted as long as it was Bud Light Lime. I had my share and the taste was seared into my palate. Couldn't help but get some similar feelings when drinking Otra Vez. Is this a craft version of BL Lime? Am I overlooking that due to the gorgeous Sierra Nevada label?

Todd

 

[saltymirv]

Great idea. I've had Otra Vez in bottles and fresh off the tap at the brewery. To me, its got light acidity and the salt flavor is mild. The vital stats and ingredients I stole off their website http://www.sierranevada.com/beer/year-round/otra-vez It tastes nothing like bud light lime to me, but BLL just gives me a headache so I don't know.
I honestly don't know how they sour. It could be hot side/cold side or even just adding a lactic/saline solution. I have experience doing kettle sour (hot side) so that's what I plan. Based on the kettle sours I've done and having tasted Otra Vez, I'd shoot for a pH of ~3.7 before boiling to stop the souring. That'll give a nice tartness but not overly so. Here's a proposed recipe that I drew up. I haven't brewed this of course, but it puts us in the ballpark and we can refine it later.

For a 5.5 gallon batch:

OG: 1.044
FG: 1.007
IBU: 5

**2-3 days prior to brewing, make sour starter however you prefer** Ensure it smells clean/lemony and not funky/pukey

Grain
4.5lb 2-row
4.5lb wheat malt
Mash at 148F for 60 mins

**Once you've mashed, pull the grain and add the sour starter. Continue souring until pH 3.7 reached**

Boil
.2oz Cluster (7%AA) @ 60 mins [5 IBU]
.75oz Sea Salt @ 5
1oz ground coriander @ 5
Zest of 1 grapefruit @ 5
.5oz Cluster @ 0

Yeast
US-05/WLP001/1056

Water
Soft-pilsen like water

Secondary
Prickly pear in some form
If you're using fruit I'd use a couple pounds. If you're using juice maybe 24oz? Syrup use 12oz??

 

[wapitiscat]

Looks like a solid start salty. I've never messed with any sour beers. Does this batch dictate that I designate some part of my setup for this. How much if any other gear do you move to the funkhouse and out of the regular brewery to use exclusively for sour beers?

Todd

 

[m00ps]

ive had really good success at making a Gose using acid malt, lactic acid, and a tart saison yeast in addition to all the typical ingredients. The nice part there is that you can add lactic acid to taste so it doesnt end up too tart.

This also means I didnt have to deal with getting our my sour brew gear or do any sort of bacteria culturing

 

[saltymirv]

Looks like a solid start salty. I've never messed with any sour beers. Does this batch dictate that I designate some part of my setup for this. How much if any other gear do you move to the funkhouse and out of the regular brewery to use exclusively for sour beers?

Todd

Thanks. No need to dedicate funky gear, the souring is done in the kettle, after the mash, but before the boil. Once this is boiled you can treat like any other beer. Here's some more info on the method https://www.fivebladesbrewing.com/lactobacillus-starter-guide/

 

[saltymirv]

ive had really good success at making a Gose using acid malt, lactic acid, and a tart saison yeast in addition to all the typical ingredients. The nice part there is that you can add lactic acid to taste so it doesnt end up too tart.

This also means I didnt have to deal with getting our my sour brew gear or do any sort of bacteria culturing

I agree, there's several ways to go about this. Although, without knowing SN's souring process its going to be tough to truly "clone" it

 

[ram5ey]

I emailed them about this and seem to recall that they are kettle souring.
I will try to look back through at some point.

 

[m00ps]

any commercially produced gose / berliner weisse is definitely kettle soured. Or else the fermentation timeframe would take too long to sell it in 6packs for ~$10

 

[wapitiscat]

Thanks. No need to dedicate funky gear, the souring is done in the kettle, after the mash, but before the boil. Once this is boiled you can treat like any other beer. Here's some more info on the method https://www.fivebladesbrewing.com/lactobacillus-starter-guide/

Right. I read that Northern Brewer post a little closer and came back to edit my comment so I didn't come off as too daft. Saw your post and m00ps post above it so I decided to leave things alone and wear my ignorance with pride.

Todd

 

[arnobg]

Otra Vez actually isn't kettle soured. It took a while, but I got an email back from the lead microbiologist at Sierra Nevada that led the Otra Vez development team. They said to maintain production levels in their scale they couldn't possibly do that with kettle souring and they use a process called sour wort inclusion instead.

Long story short, they take un-boiled and un-hopped Otra Vez wort and sour it over the course of a week with their house lactic culture until it is around an acidity of about ~1.4%. They then blend it with regular wort 25:75 and boil that normal.

If anyone wants exact numbers and what not I have a long email with pH levels for various steps of the process.

 

[saltymirv]

Otra Vez actually isn't kettle soured. It took a while, but I got an email back from the lead microbiologist at Sierra Nevada that led the Otra Vez development team. They said to maintain production levels in their scale they couldn't possibly do that with kettle souring and they use a process called sour wort inclusion instead.

Long story short, they take un-boiled and un-hopped Otra Vez wort and sour it over the course of a week with their house lactic culture until it is around an acidity of about ~1.4%. They then blend it with regular wort 25:75 and boil that normal.

If anyone wants exact numbers and what not I have a long email with pH levels for various steps of the process.

Sounds like their souring method is just another way of doing a hot side sour. For our purposes I think a kettle sour would suffice. If you could post the pH values that would be awesome. To me, I'm most interested in the post-blend, pre-boil pH value. To us, that would signify when to stop souring and begin the boil

 

[arnobg]

In the email she said that the sweet wort destined for souring will start around 5.3 pH prior to pitch, then drops to about 3.1-3.3 when it is fully acidified. I assume that 5.3 is the mash pH after mash out. Again, this is much higher acidity then you would experience in the final product because they blend 25:75. She said if looking to target the packaged product the sour wort pH would probably be around 3.7-4.0 pH.

I am thinking that it is around 3.75-3.80 personally, it is a lot more less tart than other Gose's.

 

[saltymirv]

In the email she said that the sweet wort destined for souring will start around 5.3 pH prior to pitch, then drops to about 3.1-3.3 when it is fully acidified. I assume that 5.3 is the mash pH after mash out. Again, this is much higher acidity then you would experience in the final product because they blend 25:75. She said if looking to target the packaged product the sour wort pH would probably be around 3.7-4.0 pH.

I am thinking that it is around 3.75-3.80 personally, it is a lot more less tart than other Gose's.

That's about what we estimated before, I think I guessed at a pH of 3.7 in my initial recipe post. Starting with a pH of 3.1-3.3 will result in a pH of 3.7-3.9 after dilution. So if anyone wants to make a clone I would just sour until ~3.8 is reached and then stop.

Edit: I just realized I have some Otra Vez in the fridge, I could easily just take a pH reading...

 

[arnobg]

That's about what we estimated before, I think I guessed at a pH of 3.7 in my initial recipe post. Starting with a pH of 3.1-3.3 will result in a pH of 3.7-3.9 after dilution. So if anyone wants to make a clone I would just sour until ~3.8 is reached and then stop.

Edit: I just realized I have some Otra Vez in the fridge, I could easily just take a pH reading...

Yeah I was considering doing that myself. I would let it sit and gas off though, I believe the CO2 will throw off a pH reading too.

 

[saltymirv]

I let it sit for about 2 hours, degassed with a chop stick. The pH was 3.45. That's post fermentation obviously, which is generally lower than pre fermentation, so 3.8 sounds very reasonable for pre fermentation pH