Should I complain?

[erikrocks]

So I ordered a couple of vials of WLP838 German Lager yeast from one of the bigger online homebrew shops last week and received them yesterday. Both have a "use by" date of 6/24/11, which means they now have a viability of 33% according to Mr.Malty, and I have to make a huge 10.2 liter starter and add both vials in order to brew 5.5 gallons of a 1.048 Helles.

Question is, should I email and complain? Or, since it's still technically not expired, should I just deal with it? I hate complaining, but it sucks that I have to use both vials and a kilo of DME for a single batch.

Thanks for the help.

 

[broadbill]

You still more than a month before you hit their "use-by" date, I'm not sure on what grounds you have to complain.

Are you sure you are putting the right numbers into Mr. Malty? I put in the number you gave in your post and it tells me you only need 5L of starter if doing the "simple" method. I can get it down to 3L if you shake intermittently.

 

[TheMan]

I wouldn't want to be sold yeast that is a month from the "use by" date. Either way, simple solution...let them know that this is what happened. You don't deserve a refund or replacement since it's not expired. But I would prefer to buy from a place that has more fresh yeast. Sounds like their stock doesn't rotate quick enough. Let them know this is not helping you feel comfortable buying from them in the future.

 

[dallasdb]

I used a dry yeast packet last year that expired in 1997!!!!

Just make a starter and you should be fine IMO.

Plus "use-by" dates aren't expiration dates they are dates to indicate when the product is reaching its peak and after that date the product is still viable, just not at its peak.

According to the Food Safety and Inspection Service:
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/factsheets/food_product_dating/index.asp

A "Use-By" date is the last date recommended for the use of the product while at peak quality. The date has been determined by the manufacturer of the product.

 

[erikrocks]

You still more than a month before you hit their "use-by" date, I'm not sure on what grounds you have to complain.

Are you sure you are putting the right numbers into Mr. Malty? I put in the number you gave in your post and it tells me you only need 5L of starter if doing the "simple" method. I can get it down to 3L if you shake intermittently.

On Mr.Malty, you need to use 2/24/11 as the production date, since production is 4 months prior to expiration. When I do this, it shows me I need 2 vials and 14 liters.

 

[erikrocks]

I wouldn't want to be sold yeast that is a month from the "use by" date. Either way, simple solution...let them know that this is what happened. You don't deserve a refund or replacement since it's not expired. But I would prefer to buy from a place that has more fresh yeast. Sounds like their stock doesn't rotate quick enough. Let them know this is not helping you feel comfortable buying from them in the future.

Good idea.

 

[BrewKnurd]

You still more than a month before you hit their "use-by" date, I'm not sure on what grounds you have to complain.

Are you sure you are putting the right numbers into Mr. Malty? I put in the number you gave in your post and it tells me you only need 5L of starter if doing the "simple" method. I can get it down to 3L if you shake intermittently.

I think you're using an ale fermentation. I get numbers a lot closer to OP with a lager fermentation.

 

[chumprock]

I've used a few WL vials that were given to me for free because they were "expired"

I made my normal starter and pitched without any issues.

 

[kansasbrew]

I wouldn't want to be sold yeast that is a month from the "use by" date. Either way, simple solution...let them know that this is what happened. You don't deserve a refund or replacement since it's not expired. But I would prefer to buy from a place that has more fresh yeast. Sounds like their stock doesn't rotate quick enough. Let them know this is not helping you feel comfortable buying from them in the future.

I agree. I would bet that if you called them and just explained how you felt about it, that they would offer you something in return with an apology. If I understand the whole yeast thing, the production date is critical to total number of viable yeast cells. A big online dealer ought to be closer to the production date than that imho. They live and die by reputation, so let them know you're a bit underwhelmed by their performance. BTW, I've always heard that if you're polite and act like you assume they are willing to make good, it goes a long way.

 

[erikrocks]

I've used a few WL vials that were given to me for free because they were "expired"

I made my normal starter and pitched without any issues.

Just to be clear, I'm sure the beer will ferment fine and without issue. At this point, I'm just trying to refine my process and make the best beer possible. I've been listening to Jamil (read the yeast book) and the Brewing Network religiously for over a year now, and they PREACH pitching a liberal amount of yeast, especially for lagers. I hadn't been doing this before (I've been making a standard 2L starter for everything), so I'm trying to gauge whether my beer will improve significantly if I do pay more attention to pitching rates.

 

[remilard]

Don't complain, just don't get yeast there again. I buy almost all of my yeast at my LHBS (Bacchus and Barleycorn) and typically it is less than a week from manufacture. I love that they are strict about fresh yeast. It does mean that they are out of stuff sometimes but I know what day they get their order and if I am proactive and let them know what I need when, they get it (including special orders).

Yeast is the one ingredient where freshness in terms of days or weeks matter (assume good storage of hop). Find a place that takes it seriously.

 

[doctorRobert]

Mr malty himself said that the calc may not be accurate for aged yeast because how much depends on strain and how it was handled. So, if it was handled properly the cell count could be much larger

 

[asidrane]

Don't complain, just don't get yeast there again. I buy almost all of my yeast at my LHBS (Bacchus and Barleycorn) and typically it is less than a week from manufacture. I love that they are strict about fresh yeast. It does mean that they are out of stuff sometimes but I know what day they get their order and if I am proactive and let them know what I need when, they get it (including special orders).

Yeast is the one ingredient where freshness in terms of days or weeks matter (assume good storage of hop). Find a place that takes it seriously.

Definitely do say something if you are unhappy with the service. This goes for every service in life, not just HB stuff. You stand to lose nothing and potentially gain something (be it a new yeast, or better service the next time).

 

[doctorRobert]

You could let them know you would order again if their yeast was fresher without being an ass about it. Every company should value honest feedback

 

[erikrocks]

Well, here's the response I got:

Sorry for the inconvenience and I'm more than happy to help you out with this. A starter that size is not necessary. For a lager, a start has to be pretty big to begin with, but not that big. I did the same calculations and for a simple starter with no shaking and it requires a starter of about 5l. If you shake it from time to time or have a stir plate it is less than 3l for a starter. Please let me know what you find out after rerunning the calculations. I've done a few lagers here in our heated and cooled 14 gallon conicals and I've never made a starter bigger than 5l's for any type of yeast I've used. Please let me know what you find out and what you'd prefer to do going forward. Thanks and cheers on your next brew!

He totally ignored the issue of the yeast being old. I think I'm going to drop it and I just won't order from that site again. Austin & BMW will get all of my business from now on.

 

[rockfish42]

I think I know which store you're talking about, their lager yeast is often approaching old age...

 

[malkore]

Considering I've bought yeast from the LHBS, got home and it was 5 days 'past due'...but still made a great beer...no you can't complain.

Its not expired yet. If you want to be able to select yeast packed yesterday, you need to go to the local store and pray they have it fresh.

I don't think the vendor 'did you wrong'.

 

[dallasdb]

He totally ignored the issue of the yeast being old. I think I'm going to drop it and I just won't order from that site again. Austin & BMW will get all of my business from now on.

But the yeast isn't old! While you are at it, go complain to the grocery store that their chicken breast has to be used within a few days and you'd like to cook their chicken months later and want it to stay fresh.

IMO RDWHAHB

 

[erikrocks]

But the yeast isn't old! While you are at it, go complain to the grocery store that their chicken breast has to be used within a few days and you'd like to cook their chicken months later and want it to stay fresh.

IMO RDWHAHB

IMO, 3 month old yeast IS old. One of the leading online retailers shouldn't be selling yeast with a 32% viability, especially when it spends a week on a UPS truck as it travels cross country.

So yeah, I'm making the switch to a homebrew shop that a.) hopefully values fresh yeast more than this one and b.) is a little bit closer to me.

And the sarcastic grocery store comment really wasn't necessary.

 

[Mustangfreak]

Let me see if I'm understanding this. You think you need to make a 10 liter starter, as in 5 coke bottles worth of starter, or are we talking about a different measurement that I've never heard of? If it's the same liter i see everywhere else I would think 1 would be too huge.

 

[rockfish42]

For a cold started lager that's the correct amount to pitch, he's starting with 1/3 the amount of yeast present in a fresh vial and he needs to pitch roughly twice as much as an ale fermentation. You normally need the equivalent of two vials for "correct" pitching rates in an ale.

 

[Mustangfreak]

But 10 liters?! I've only done a starter once and that was just to see if I could do it. Normally I just shake the vial wait 10-15 sec and pitch it. So for no problems.

I'm just surprised that you need 10 liters. 5.5 gallons is 20.9 liters, so his starter is half of his batch! I must be missing something!!!!

 

[BrewKnurd]

Mr malty himself said that the calc may not be accurate for aged yeast because how much depends on strain and how it was handled. So, if it was handled properly the cell count could be much larger

I was wondering about that....

 

[rockfish42]

But 10 liters?! I've only done a starter once and that was just to see if I could do it. Normally I just shake the vial wait 10-15 sec and pitch it. So for no problems.

I'm just surprised that you need 10 liters. 5.5 gallons is 20.9 liters, so his starter is half of his batch! I must be missing something!!!!

Feasibly he'd have to step up the starter by decanting and adding more wort or performing a drauflassen. To put it in perspective he needs ~400 billion yeast cells and a single vial only has 100 billion when brand new. He currently has ~60 billion, if he had a stir plate he could do a 5 liter starter and be set instead.

 

[Rundownhouse]

I've only done a starter once and that was just to see if I could do it.!

So you have no experience in the practice and no education or research on why someone would want to do it?

Thanks for your input!

 

[dallasdb]

And the sarcastic grocery store comment really wasn't necessary.

Sorry you took offense. You put your business on the street and I was just making a funny.

It is a crap shoot ordering online sometimes, if you don't have a LHBS you don't have a choice but if you do your best bet would be to handpick your yeast in store.

I just don't understand what the fuss is about if you are just a homebrewer. You aren't selling your beer, granted you do want to make the best for yourself, but myself and many others have harvested yeast that is over 6 months old in a fridge and made a starter and pitched into what turned into great beer.

RDWHAHB

 

[dallasdb]

So you have no experience in the practice and no education or research on why someone would want to do it?

Thanks for your input!

Wow who lit the fuse to your tampon?

This thread has turned into one big whine fest.

UNSUBSCRIBED from this one. Haha

 

[broadbill]

I think it bears repeating (for the third time) that Mr. Malty estimate of yeast viability is just that...an estimate.

So this yeast isn't as fresh as the OP hoped. At what viability are we going to say that its crap? 33% is obviously crap....what about 50%? Is 70% acceptable? Why? It still have 30% dead cells....

I think such a large starter is needed here is because many things....a lager is being made, the yeast is older, the OP isn't stirring or adding oxygen, etc. So why does it all come down to the yeast being old and that the homebrew shop needs to rectify this?

Another possibility is that this particular yeast strain isn't a big seller so maybe White lab limits production runs of this strain (meaning the stuff you find in the store can be older) or the shop limits the inventory of this strain (meaning it will have on average older stuff).

 

[Poobah58]

Chill out...or should I say RDWHAHB? You are making a starter with yeast that has yet to expire. What's the problem? I make starters from yeast that is 2 and even 3 years old. It only takes 1 cell to make a few billion!

 

[Mustangfreak]

So you have no experience in the practice and no education or research on why someone would want to do it?

Thanks for your input!

When did I give input in this thread?????? I just asked why he needed a starter that is half the size of his batch. Re-read my post before you jump down my throat.

 

[Jawbox0]

*shrugs* Really, if you step the vial up in a liter, pitch to 3-4 liters, then pitch, you'd probably be darn close on the cell count.

 

[erikrocks]

I think we're losing sight of my goal here. I understand that beer--and possibly good beer--can be made from a 3 month old vial of yeast. I'm just disappointed that a large online retailer will send said yeast to a customer, knowing that a huge starter is needed in order to make the BEST beer possible.

I'm simply not going to spend $8 for a vial that is 3 months old, whether it has expired or not. Hopefully, BMW and AHB value fresh ingredients.

 

[iaefebs]

Question is, should I email and complain?
Thanks for the help.

No

 

[IffyG]

I think we're losing sight of my goal here. I understand that beer--and possibly good beer--can be made from a 3 month old vial of yeast. I'm just disappointed that a large online retailer will send said yeast to a customer, knowing that a huge starter is needed in order to make the BEST beer possible.

I'm simply not going to spend $8 for a vial that is 3 months old, whether it has expired or not. Hopefully, BMW and AHB value fresh ingredients.

They didn't send you yeast past the use by date, therefore your concerns based on the Mr. Malty estimate of viability is pretty much going to be ignored by the vendor. Had they sent you something past the use by date, I could see you being upset. If you want to be that picky about a product you need to go to a LHBS and get yeast with a date that satisfies you.

Honestly, I'd be more concerned about what might have happened to the yeast in transit than the use by date.

 

[broadbill]

They didn't send you yeast past the use by date, therefore your concerns based on the Mr. Malty estimate of viability is pretty much going to be ignored by the vendor. Had they sent you something past the use by date, I could see you being upset. If you want to be that picky about a product you need to go to a LHBS and get yeast with a date that satisfies you.

Honestly, I'd be more concerned about what might have happened to the yeast in transit than the use by date.

+1 to this.

The yeast passes White Labs specifications for quality---if it didn't it would have a shorter use-by date on it.

It passes the the online homebrew shops specification for quality---if it didn't they would not have sent it to you.

It just doesn't pass YOUR specification on quality---so its on you to go where you have to to find yeast that pass your quality standards. Lesson learned, move on.

 

[BrewForMe]

I would have to agree that as long as it isn't expred, you really shouldn't complain. The "use by" date is clearly not gone by so the yeast is very usable. I would just pitch it and forget it.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

I'm simply not going to spend $8 for a vial that is 3 months old, whether it has expired or not. Hopefully, BMW and AHB value fresh ingredients.

We order White Labs every week. We order and sell approximately 1,000 vials a week. We keep it fresh.

Forrest

 

[Shooter]

AAAAAaaaargh, just brew the &$%^& beer!!!!


...sorry!

 

[iaefebs]

AAAAAaaaargh, just brew the &$%^& beer!!!!

 

[BuckeyeBrewAZ]

Im going to jump on this tread just to say WTF... did you make a starter? did any good yeast come from it? I swear this forum is full of Bit****