Secondary fermenter, slowing fermentation

[merk_the_hermit]

Hey, first time poster/brewer here.

Right now I'm sort of in a pickle. We've made it to the secondary fermenter, but now the bubbling has slowed significantly down to about once every 2.5 minutes or so. Also it seems like a film has formed on the top. But it's still bubbling. We transferred on Saturday.

The person I'm working with wants to bottle immediately because hes afraid the yeast might die before we do. I'm thinking the yeast is just slowing down and running out of sugars to work with. I don't think the yeast would die at all unless we stuck the carboys outside in the snow. Right now our steady temperature is about 53-54 degrees.

Anyone think they could give me some feedback on what the smart thing would be to do?

 

[gtpro]

You guys need to do some reading if you're serious about this hobby.

How long was it in primary before you transferred?

Secondary "fermentation" should not be fermentation at all. You rack to secondary when the final gravity has leveled out and you want to clear/condition the beer before bottling.

Yeast can stay alive for months or years, cold temps wont kill them, just make them dormant.

Now that its in secondary, leave it for a couple weeks to finish fermenting, (if it even is), let it clear up and then bottle.

I suggest www.howtobrew.com by John Palmer, its got everything you need to know.

 

[boostsr20]

Ale or Lager? If its an ale the fermenting temp is way low. Bump it up to 60-70.

 

[merk_the_hermit]

You guys need to do some reading if you're serious about this hobby.

How long was it in primary before you transferred?

Secondary "fermentation" should not be fermentation at all. You rack to secondary when the final gravity has leveled out and you want to clear/condition the beer before bottling.

Yeast can stay alive for months or years, cold temps wont kill them, just make them dormant.

Now that its in secondary, leave it for a couple weeks to finish fermenting, (if it even is), let it clear up and then bottle.

I suggest www.howtobrew.com by John Palmer, its got everything you need to know.

It was in the primary for over 2 weeks prior to racking to the secondary. I'll relay the information, which is good because I really don't feel like bottling right now.

I have the book you're talking about right next to me. I reread the portion on yeast before posting but didn't see what I needed. Thanks for the speedy reply.

 

[merk_the_hermit]

Ale or Lager? If its an ale the fermenting temp is way low. Bump it up to 60-70.

The one we're having a problem with is a Bavarian Hefeweizen (ale), so that might be part of the problem

 

[gtpro]

if it was in primary for 2 weeks under normal conditions then it should have finished fermentation, but if it was under 60 degrees the whole time then it may not have finished.

 

[Revvy]

I don't see any mention of gravity readings. How do you know what's going on? It could be off gassing for all you know if you are JUST going by the airlock.

 

[merk_the_hermit]

I don't see any mention of gravity readings. How do you know what's going on? It could be off gassing for all you know if you are JUST going by the airlock.

We took some gravity readings prior to racking, but the kit came with some generic directions that mentioned going by the bubbling (once every 90 seconds). That's when we racked instead of waiting for the gravity to level out.

 

[merk_the_hermit]

if it was in primary for 2 weeks under normal conditions then it should have finished fermentation, but if it was under 60 degrees the whole time then it may not have finished.

yeah I'm not sure if the temperature was right at all. People are saying that ale is a little under room temperature, but the yeast was saying 50's. Not sure what's up with at all. I guess I might need to start taking the wheel on this since the guy working with me seems to be a little too sure about things but we keep making major mistakes

 

[Revvy]

We took some gravity readings prior to racking, but the kit came with some generic directions that mentioned going by the bubbling (once every 90 seconds). That's when we racked instead of waiting for the gravity to level out.

You were give stupid information.

Your airlock is not a fermentation gauge, it is a VALVE to release excess co2.


"Bubbling action" is not a good way to tell if anything is happening, plenty of beers ferment without a single bubble from the airlock.

Fermentation is not always "dynamic," just because you don't SEE anything happening, doesn't mean that any-thing's wrong,, and also doesn't mean that the yeast are still not working diligently away, doing what they've been doing for over 4,000 years..

The bubbling just means that it is venting excess CO2, nothing more. If it's not bubbling, that only means that it is not producing enough co2 to need to vent.

If your airlock was bubbling and stopped---It doesn't mean fermentation has stopped.

If you airlock isn't bubbling, it doesn't mean your fermentation hasn't started....

If your airlock starts bubbling, it really doesn't matter.

If your airlock NEVER bubbles, it doesn't mean anything is wrong or right.

The only way to truly know what is going on in your fermenter is with your hydrometer. Like I said here in my blog, which I encourage you to read, Think evaluation before action you sure as HELL wouldn't want a doctor to start cutting on you unless he used the proper diagnostic instuments like x-rays first, right? You wouldn't want him to just take a look in your eyes briefly and say "I'm cutting into your chest first thing in the morning." You would want them to use the right diagnostic tools before the slice and dice, right? You'd cry malpractice, I would hope, if they didn't say they were sending you for an MRI and other things before going in....

Thinking about "doing anything" without taking a hydrometer reading is tantamount to the doctor deciding to cut you open without running any diagnostic tests....Taking one look at you and saying, "Yeah I'm going in." You would really want the doctor to use all means to properly diagnose what's going on. It's exactly the same thing when you try to go by airlock....

Take a grav reading and tell us what you beer is really doing...We can't help you, you can't help yourself, JUST by looking at an airlock.

 

[gtpro]

its a learning process, you can find the answer to pretty much any question you have by searching this site or by reading that book.

 

[merk_the_hermit]

yeah even though I'm getting crucified, its helping haha. Might as well get the answers now before any more goes wrong.

The readings I have written down on gravity readings are about :

1.025 brew day
1.018 before racking.

It was about that, not exact since we're terrible at reading the hydrometer, but basically the gravity went down before racking. I'll try taking a reading tomorrow if that helps diagnose whats going on.

 

[Revvy]

yeah even though I'm getting crucified, its helping haha. Might as well get the answers now before any more goes wrong.

The readings I have written down on gravity readings are about :

1.025 brew day
1.018 before racking.

It was about that, not exact since we're terrible at reading the hydrometer, but basically the gravity went down before racking. I'll try taking a reading tomorrow if that helps diagnose whats going on.

Noone's crucifying you, we're trying to help you...You never should have racked UNTIL you took a grav reading, over 3 consecutive days (2 readings)...the secondary is to clear you beer, so fermentation should be complete before you take it off the yeast that you need to finish your job...SInce you were fermenting so cold, more than likely you had a few points yet to go, and if it's fermetning again, it got agitated or warm enough to ferment again, OR it is just off gassing becasue it got warmer, or your cat or kid nudged the secondary and it is venting off...but you won't really know til you take another reading.

You really never should do anything arbitrarily or based on something fautly like an airlock...or by a calendar...

In Mr Wizard's colum in BYO awhile back he made an interesting analogy about brewing and baking....He said that egg timers are all well and good in the baking process but they only provide a "rule of thumb" as to when something is ready...recipes, oven types, heck even atmospheric conditions, STILL have more bearing on when a cake is ready than the time it says it will be done in the cook book. You STILL have to stick a toothpick in the center and pull it out to see if truly the cake is ready.....otherwise you may end up with a raw cake....

Not too different from our beers....We can have a rough idea when our beer is ready (or use the 1-2-3 rule which, like I said, doesn't factor in things like yeast lag time or even ambient temp during fermentation and do things to our beer willy nilly, like moving it too early, or thinking our beer is going to be drinkable at 3 weeks....but unless we actually stick "our toothpick" (the hydrometer) in and let it tell us when the yeasties are finished...we too can "f" our beer up.

You can't really do something arbitrarily, you have to learn to "read" your beers, the hydrometer is the best way to do that.

 

[dbreienrk1]

You know, I started brewing beer about 3 months ago and I too thought Reevy was a d*ck. He's not. He's very knowledgeable. I've read tons of his posts and he's right about 100.1% of the time. I was paranoid about my first brews, but then I realized it's pretty hard to screw things up. All you need is sanitization, time, and patience. Check gravity readings like he said and you will know where your brew is at. And Reevy, thanks for all the posts. Cheers!

 

[merk_the_hermit]

Noone's crucifying you, we're trying to help you...You never should have racked UNTIL you took a grav reading, over 3 consecutive days (2 readings)...the secondary is to clear you beer, so fermentation should be complete before you take it off the yeast that you need to finish your job...SInce you were fermenting so cold, more than likely you had a few points yet to go, and if it's fermetning again, it got agitated or warm enough to ferment again, OR it is just off gassing becasue it got warmer, or your cat or kid nudged the secondary and it is venting off...but you won't really know til you take another reading.

You really never should do anything arbitrarily or based on something fautly like an airlock...or by a calendar...

In Mr Wizard's colum in BYO awhile back he made an interesting analogy about brewing and baking....He said that egg timers are all well and good in the baking process but they only provide a "rule of thumb" as to when something is ready...recipes, oven types, heck even atmospheric conditions, STILL have more bearing on when a cake is ready than the time it says it will be done in the cook book. You STILL have to stick a toothpick in the center and pull it out to see if truly the cake is ready.....otherwise you may end up with a raw cake....

Not too different from our beers....We can have a rough idea when our beer is ready (or use the 1-2-3 rule which, like I said, doesn't factor in things like yeast lag time or even ambient temp during fermentation and do things to our beer willy nilly, like moving it too early, or thinking our beer is going to be drinkable at 3 weeks....but unless we actually stick "our toothpick" (the hydrometer) in and let it tell us when the yeasties are finished...we too can "f" our beer up.

You can't really do something arbitrarily, you have to learn to "read" your beers, the hydrometer is the best way to do that.

I guess this all means I need to rethink what we're doing. The person I'm working with just informed me that we used the wrong yeast from the start (lager yeast) on the ale kit. So that's why we've been fermenting at the temps we are, but he doesn't seem to think we should take more readings to rack it again.

I don't know, at this point what happens happens on this beer. I'll just have to pay more attention to the other we started (low gravity czech republic beer) and make sure we don't have similar issues. I'm starting to get a little pissed since he keeps rushing things and making a mess. He almost pitched the entire 5 gallon batch the second day since the airlock hadn't bubbled. Just means I really need to start reading more about what we're doing since he doesn't seem to be.

 

[Revvy]

I don't know, at this point what happens happens on this beer. I'll just have to pay more attention to the other we started (low gravity czech republic beer) and make sure we don't have similar issues. I'm starting to get a little pissed since he keeps rushing things and making a mess. He almost pitched the entire 5 gallon batch the second day since the airlock hadn't bubbled. Just means I really need to start reading more about what we're doing since he doesn't seem to be.

You need new brewing friends, people who know what they are doing. And know that patience is what it takes to make great beer.

For one thing, yeast often takes 3 days to even reproduce enough yeast to START fermenting......so if some fool dumps their beer then they are simply idiots....We're not making koolaid here, we are dealing with a process based on living micro-organisms (yeast) and THEY are in charge, they have their own agenda, and it is more often than not, much slower than ours with out instant gratification and instant communication...this is a much slower process...

Most of my beers take 8 weeks from grain to glass, and that is just for weaker, watery beers...some beers takes months, and others take years to come unto their own....

If you really want to learn, stick around here, but what you will see the most is the need to relax and have patience....

I wrote this around christmas, it contains links to most of the "tip" threads we have on here.

Look at any of the stickies, at the top of every section of the forum. 99.9% of any new brewers questions have usually already been answered and they are usually stickied somewhere in the forum, usually in the section it is more than likely related to.

In fact THIS ONE probably has every question answered in one place if people would only look. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/faq-please-read-before-asking-question-7909/

This thread has a lot of tips, but sadly some folks can't tell the difference between information and an opinion about something, so some of it has to be tacken with a grain of salt. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/stone-cold-lead-pipe-lockd-n00b-advice-54362/?highlight=stone+cold

Then these threads of mine are meant to be helpful. They're basically summations of things I've answered hundreds of times.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/wh...where-your-beer-still-turned-out-great-96780/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/revvys-tips-bottler-first-time-otherwise-94812/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/never-dump-your-beer-patience-virtue-time-heals-all-things-even-beer-73254/

But basically just look through the threads there's a ton of info here, usually repeated thousands of times.

In the time I've been here, I've come to realize there is no new questions ever asked, no new situations that we haven't seen 100 times before. I know people hate it when we say it, BUT the answers really are already here, and people really just need to do some digging. This time of year especially, with all the new folks, there's usually 5 different version of the same question in the same section being answered the same time and all in a row. Like right now there are 4-5 "Should I secondary or do long primary?" threads where we're cutting and pasting the same answers in each thread.

Also don't forget http://howtobrew.com/intro.html

It's a good basic book, though it is sadly not that well written, and clear in some issues he contradicts himslef often, which has led to countless misunderstandings and arguments...but the basic info is good.

 

[Flounder]

and that is just for weaker, watery beers

Why do you make watery beers?

 

[Revvy]

Why do you make watery beers?

I meant like low adv beers, like lagers and wits, and milds....

 

[wolf08gang]

You'll have to forgive Revvy. Every time someone mentions airlocks he experiences severe headaches until he writes a long explanation about how airlocks aren't gauges.

Yes, hydrometer readings are the end-all when it comes to determining how your fermentation is doing. That said, the products of fermentation are alcohol and co2. If you have airlock activity, you very likely still have some active fermentation going on.

Mid fifties is pretty low for a Hefe. Low enough that your fermentation is likely going very slow. Try warming it up to about 65, give it a gentle swirl (don't splash) and wait a while longer. In my experience, hefeweizen yeast takes longer than your average ale yeast.

Don't stress over it. In the end it'll be beer, it'll taste great, and you will have learned from the experience.

 

[ohiobrewtus]

Good grief...

These type of responses are precisely why I and many other once valued contributors have fled.

Revvy, you said absolutely nothing of value directly related to the OP, providing no help to an obviously new brewer while simultaneously boosting your post count *and* spreading your cut and paste diatribe. That's quite an achievement.

I believe that you and I have been through this before - as long as an airlock or airlock/bung combination are installed properly, they are, in fact, a perfectly valid gauge of fermentation activity. Hydrometer readings, of course, are the best way to get more concise and accurate readings, but an airlock is not anywhere near as worthless as you seem to be telling everyone dozens of times a day with your cut and paste responses - provided that both the airlock and bung are installed properly.

I've seen you provide the same generic cut and paste multiple times this week, usually to OP's that aren't even requesting this information. I don't mean to be rude, but someone needs to say something about it. I've most likely brewed more beer in the last 3 years and most likely have just as much experience, but you don't see me spewing the attitude around here that you seem to have. If you're going to answer questions for new brewers, it might be beneficial if you read their entire post before you decide that it's time to cut and paste your standard reply.

Spare me the gloating about how many people you've helped and the lifetime membership that someone purchased for you, as I assure you that you have turned away close to as many people as you have helped.

Mods - feel free to contact me about this issue or delete my post. I don't feel that I have been overly confrontational with this reply, but I could certainly be wrong. From what I understand, some, if not most of you, feel the same way that I do regarding this matter. Revvy, you are also welcome to contact me via PM regarding this post.

 

[iron_city_ap]

I guess this all means I need to rethink what we're doing. The person I'm working with just informed me that we used the wrong yeast from the start (lager yeast) on the ale kit. So that's why we've been fermenting at the temps we are, but he doesn't seem to think we should take more readings to rack it again.

I don't know, at this point what happens happens on this beer. I'll just have to pay more attention to the other we started (low gravity czech republic beer) and make sure we don't have similar issues. I'm starting to get a little pissed since he keeps rushing things and making a mess. He almost pitched the entire 5 gallon batch the second day since the airlock hadn't bubbled. Just means I really need to start reading more about what we're doing since he doesn't seem to be.

I'm surprised nobody has really asked this yet, but, how much experience does the person 'helping' you have? Is it a case of them just doing their thing and not giving you any information, or teaching you anything about the process? Do they have little/no experience and just firing shots in the dark? The second seems more like what is going on based on what I have read.

I think you should do as much reading as possible between now and your next batch. I mean as much reading as you can stand. And then a couple extra chapters. Re read things. Even if you think or know you understand them, read them again. The more you know, the better off you are. Ask questions on here. You might get 2-3 different types of answers. Just realize that sometimes there are 2-3 different ways of coming to the same thing in the end. Try to stay as simple as possible in the beginning. Think out EVERY step in the process. Be methodical and deliberate. TAKE YOUR TIME. BE VERY PATIENT.

You will have beer. It takes time. It will probably be a little rough at first. Learn where your mistakes are. Your 2nd batch will be better. The 3rd will be better yet. Get a solid knoledge base, you don't need to know everything, but you do need to learn the basics well, and build on that.

If you can, try brewing a batch on your own without the other person's 'help'. Make a batch that is just yours and yours alone to make perfect or screw up. You'll learn much more 'flying solo'.

Chin up. Don't let people on here or in the 'real world' discourage you.

Hope that helps you.

 

[Revvy]

And yet Brutus, I see stuff like THIS multiple times a day, from new brewers on a daily basis, and you still want to argue about my post????

....He almost pitched the entire 5 gallon batch the second day since the airlock hadn't bubbled.

This is not the exeption, on here, it's the rule.....New brewers panic because their airlock doesn't start, or stops, or bubbles slowly, or any number of conditions. And yet you wanna debate once again how in an ideal world an airlock will bubble..yadda yadda yadda......

There seems to be a lot less than ideal brewing situations on here Brutus, than you may care to admit.....

No matter brutus what you may think, I don't give a f about my post count, or how big my brewing balls are....All I care about is helping new brewers who are scared, or stressed out on their first couple batches.

And many are scared because they have come to believe their airlock is some sort of perfect tuned instrument. And if it acts in a way different then they think it should, then they think somethings wrong....and long before they think to take a reading with a hydrometer they would rather consider dumping the batchlike the OP's friend or pitching yeast or any other "fix it" without even knowing somethings wrong.

You don't care about the amount of who have been helped. Or you think I touting some ego gratification by the number of folks who HAVE been helped by that post....That's your pergogitive....

All I care about is that the person comes back, and you may not like it, but they come back 90% of the time with a gravity reading, and says "Whew, I guess I was worried for nothing."

That's all than matters to me....no matter WHAT you think....If I were in it for some ego gratification, then do you think I would put up with the Trolls, the attacks, and with stuff like this from you?

The one thing I've never asked you, or any of those that hate that post, what DO you do, when and if the rare time that YOUR airlock doesn't actually bubble?

Do you assume that the yeast is dead?
Do you thinks you beer is ruined?
Do you consider dumping it?
Do you just blindly pitch more yeast?

In other words do you immediately assume there is something wrong with your beer?

More than likely, just like me, you don't.

What you will probably do is first check your seal- check to see if starsan lifted the bung on your carboy, or push down on your bucket lid, or something like that.

And then, if it's STILL not bubbling, you are probably still more than likely NOT panic. You will probably either still relax and walk away from it for a few days, OR, you will take a hydrometer reading.

That's the difference between most of us who have been brewing for years and the folks that start "is my beer ruined" threads.....

The last thing they think of doing is taking a hydrometer reading. In fact most of them think that taking a hydro reading will infect their beer, or cause more. So they often opt to pitch more yeast or dump....

All my post addresses is not to sweat what their airlock is doing, and use something a little more precise to find out what their beer is doing.

Even the OP is looking at things a little differently from when he started his post. He's realized that he needs to slow things down a bit, and get more information.......and that really IS all that matters to me.

 

[JustLooking]

No matter brutus what you may think, I don't give a f about my post count, or how big my brewing balls are....All I care about is helping new brewers who are scared.

....If I were in it for some ego grtatification, then do you think I would put up with the Trolls, the attacks, and with stuff like this from you?

Well, it may be that you should have responded with a PM, the way that OB requested. But defending your ego and adding to the post count is the direction that you took.

 

[blacklab]

Well, it may be that you should have responded with a PM, the way that OB requested. But defending your ego and adding to the post count is the direction that you took.

You were expecting something different?

 

[olllllo]

I'd like to first apologize to the OP and those with questions in this thread. We generally discourage OT discussion in the technical forums especially when it seems to be personality driven.

Unfortunately it's become apparent that something has to be done and this thread is where it's going to happen. As moderators, we generally delete these OT distractions and encourage people to work this out via PM. That hasn't seemed to work.

I'll be blunt.

Revvy. It's not your job to inform every brewer about your take on fermentation with a prepared block of text. We are all here to learn, discuss, engage and inform. I find that posting a wall of text is neither engaging nor encouraging of discussion.

Most people that have been here awhile that I have talked to about this agree that this style is off-putting. You are a likable individual here, so much so, that someone has chosen to create a fake identity just so they don't have to publicly disagree with you. Please consider answering the questions at hand and allow others to participate. Stop carrying on about Ohiobrewtus. It has NOTHING to do with the OP or the OPs concern.

Ohio. There have been times when you have confronted Revvy in a less than civil manner. This is NOT one of those times. I think you laid it out fine.

I think you addressed something that we have chosen to ignore because we had hoped it could be worked out behind the scenes. That is my failing and I share it with the other mods.

You need to use the report the post function and answer the OPs damn question. If your concern was for the OP, then address the OP. Your arguments about low participation here because of Revvy don't persuade me. It's just as much your place as his and you should spend more time answering questions here if that is your concern.
I realize that you and others have brought this up before and you didn't seem to see any lasting effects. Well the cards are all on the table now, so lets move forward.

Some of you other folks, I only see when you hear people are arguing about Revvy. Shame on you. If you left to avoid this kind of crap, what good are you posting now?


In short,
OP, sorry.
Revvy, dial it down. Less text more engagement.
Ohio, Point taken, now help out.
Mods, don't be afraid to piss anyone off, just tell it like it is.
New Brewers - It's OK to fail once in awhile. Learn from it. It beats seeing 2 grown adults sniping.
Trainwreck spotters, IBTLers, etc. **** off.

 

[ohiobrewtus]

Points well taken. Thanks for responding, olllllo.

Hey, first time poster/brewer here.

Right now I'm sort of in a pickle. We've made it to the secondary fermenter, but now the bubbling has slowed significantly down to about once every 2.5 minutes or so. Also it seems like a film has formed on the top. But it's still bubbling. We transferred on Saturday.

The person I'm working with wants to bottle immediately because hes afraid the yeast might die before we do. I'm thinking the yeast is just slowing down and running out of sugars to work with. I don't think the yeast would die at all unless we stuck the carboys outside in the snow. Right now our steady temperature is about 53-54 degrees.

Anyone think they could give me some feedback on what the smart thing would be to do?

Since primary fermentation has ended, and you have racked off of the yeast cake, you're not going to see much activity in secondary. I'm surprised that you're seeing your airlock bubble at all, actually. How long was the beer in primary, and what does the 'film' look like?

Regarding the issue of there being yeast remaining for bottling time - I can't guarantee that this will be the case with your beer, but I have, on multiple occasions, had beers sitting around in carboys for 6+ months before they were bottled with priming sugar. They carbed up just fine without adding any additional yeast at bottling time.