Secondaries and dry hops

[philosofool]

I have heard that some brewers use a secondary when dry hopping. What advantage would this bring? I don't harvest yeast from fermenters, so that's not a thing for me.

 

[flars]

Some brewers still use a secondary, even without dry hopping. I dry hop in the primary and still harvest the yeast cake. I have strained out the hop additions in the boil kettle though, so there is very little hop debris in the harvested yeast.

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

As my pro brewer friend always says, never leave your beer on spent yeast for longer than it needs to be. There is always a chance of generating off flavors from dead yeast if you let a beer sit in primary to long.

i have always found that transferring to secondary always helps to settle yeast to the bottom more quickly as well. When dry hopping, the beer needs to sit for a while, so it is a better idea to transfer it. And for all you novices who think the beer needs the yeast to absorb flavors, there is plenty of suspended yeast in the beer right up until you drink it.

If you plan on dry hopping, just spend the 11 bucks on a bucket and lid that you can use for that sole purpose (instead of a carboy with a narrow neck)

 

[Yesfan]

The only time I secondary is for fruit beers. I do three weeks in the primary, then keg/bottle. If there's a batch that needs a dry hop addition, then I just pitch the hops in the primary on the start of the 3rd week.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]i have always found that transferring to secondary always helps to settle yeast to the bottom more quickly as well. [...]

How could you tell?

There's really no way to rationalize that, fwiw...

Cheers!

 

[philosofool]

How could you tell?

There's really no way to rationalize that, fwiw...

Seems like the are a lot of ways to observe it though.

 

[day_trippr]

Seems like the are a lot of ways to observe it though.

There are ways to try to prove it, but I think it's a myth...

Cheers!

 

[RM-MN]

As my pro brewer friend always says, never leave your beer on spent yeast for longer than it needs to be. There is always a chance of generating off flavors from dead yeast if you let a beer sit in primary to long.

i have always found that transferring to secondary always helps to settle yeast to the bottom more quickly as well. When dry hopping, the beer needs to sit for a while, so it is a better idea to transfer it. And for all you novices who think the beer needs the yeast to absorb flavors, there is plenty of suspended yeast in the beer right up until you drink it.

If you plan on dry hopping, just spend the 11 bucks on a bucket and lid that you can use for that sole purpose (instead of a carboy with a narrow neck)

Don't confuse the advice given by a pro brewer to advice given by homebrewers. Their equipment and their needs are different. Because of the quantities they deal with, yeast autolysis is a concern. Not so much for small batches.

If you plan to move your beer to secondary for dry hopping (not recommended) you need to use a carboy that is small enough that your beer fills it to the neck to avoid a large headspace or surface as that large surface in contact with the air can lead to infections.

 

[kh54s10]

I have stopped doing secondaries almost entirely. I also dry hop in primary and in a Better Bottle. I put one ounce only in a one gallon paint strainer bag. If dry hopping with more than an ounce I use another bag. That way you can squeeze the swollen bags back out of the neck of the bottle. This also squeezes out good beer from the hops. I then let it settle for a while before bottling/kegging.

 

[kombat]

If you're not planning on reusing the yeast, just dry-hop in the primary. Secondary just adds extra risk with no benefit.

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

Don't confuse the advice given by a pro brewer to advice given by homebrewers. Their equipment and their needs are different. Because of the quantities they deal with, yeast autolysis is a concern. Not so much for small batches.

If you plan to move your beer to secondary for dry hopping (not recommended) you need to use a carboy that is small enough that your beer fills it to the neck to avoid a large headspace or surface as that large surface in contact with the air can lead to infections.

Been brewing for 21 years and have always used a secondary, sometimes even have racked a second time. granted i almost always re-use yeast, but i have never gotten an infection in a fermenter. not once not ever. talking about hundreds of batches. i dont know where you are getting this myth but have you ever read the papazian books?

remember, there is suspended co2 in beer. co2 is heavier than air, and it will come out of suspension and sit on top of the beer anyway. beer once fermented is naturally immune to infection for the most part as well. there are wild yeast strains and bacteria that you can introduce through unsanitary practices, but letting beer sit in a container with head space is not something to be concerned with.

I would think that if you bottle directly from the primary (transferring to a bottling bucket) you will get more sludge and yeast into your soon to be finished product resulting in more sediment in your bottles. something that i have noticed a long time ago when i switched from bottling right off of the primary.

as far as observation is concerned, i use glass carboys so you can see if there is any activity very easily. yes if you transfer when it appears fermentation is complete, you will notice the remaining yeast settling out over the next few days. i often even find myself bottling after 10 days and drinking the beer after 15 days or so.

 

[RM-MN]

Been brewing for 21 years and have always used a secondary, sometimes even have racked a second time. granted i almost always re-use yeast, but i have never gotten an infection in a fermenter. not once not ever. talking about hundreds of batches. i dont know where you are getting this myth but have you ever read the papazian books?

remember, there is suspended co2 in beer. co2 is heavier than air, and it will come out of suspension and sit on top of the beer anyway. beer once fermented is naturally immune to infection for the most part as well. there are wild yeast strains and bacteria that you can introduce through unsanitary practices, but letting beer sit in a container with head space is not something to be concerned with.

I would think that if you bottle directly from the primary (transferring to a bottling bucket) you will get more sludge and yeast into your soon to be finished product resulting in more sediment in your bottles. something that i have noticed a long time ago when i switched from bottling right off of the primary.

as far as observation is concerned, i use glass carboys so you can see if there is any activity very easily. yes if you transfer when it appears fermentation is complete, you will notice the remaining yeast settling out over the next few days. i often even find myself bottling after 10 days and drinking the beer after 15 days or so.

If you have never had an infection without minimizing the headspace/surface of your secondary you have been extremely meticulous in your cleaning/sanitizing regimine or very lucky. I get my ideas from other home brewers and from this thread. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=71400

 

[philosofool]

If you have never had an infection without minimizing the headspace/surface of your secondary you have been extremely meticulous in your cleaning/sanitizing regimine or very lucky. I get my ideas from other home brewers and from this thread. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=71400

I can believe that there's some additional risk of infection when using a secondary fermenter, but this seems to exaggerate the worry a lot.

 

[Yesfan]

My cousin does secondaries for the same reasons Great maibock mentions. He hasn't had an infection either, so I guess whatever works huh?

I don't, because I just try to keep everything as simple as I can. No secondaries for me mean one less fermenter I have to rack to and one less vessel I have to clean. If I brew an IPA, I use a hop spider so there's not so much sludge in the primary and the slurry I harvest will be cleaner. I'm going to start using bags for my dryhops and if there is still some sludge, no worries. Most of the beers I've been brewing, especially IPAs, use US-05 anyways so I could just harvest that yeast from another cleaner beer like some of the blondes I've done. Worst case is I spend $3 for a fresh packs.

 

[DesignatedDrinker]

I use secondary's when I dry hop. Its easy to add the leaf hops and get them mixed in and all wet when you rack on top, also I feel personally better about my beer when I take it off that 1.5" layer of poop and into a fresh container, especially if its going to be sitting in another container for 7-10 days. I have made more beers then I can count this way, and never had an infection, never had any oxidation issues, or anything. So I will continue to do so until something happens that makes me think I shouldn't. Others have the own opinions....

 

[peterj]

remember, there is suspended co2 in beer. co2 is heavier than air, and it will come out of suspension and sit on top of the beer anyway.

This is not how gases behave. They will not settle out like liquids do. All of the gases in the headspace will be constantly mixing and diffusing creating a homogenous mixture. Even if this were true (which it's not), the CO2 would not shield it from dust and bacteria in the headspace air falling into the beer.

But I think the main concern is oxidation from too much headspace in the secondary. Because the gases will mix evenly, you need to minimize the headspace in order to minimize the amount of oxygen that comes in contact with the beer. The best way to do that in my opinion is to not use a secondary at all because the CO2 created during fermentation purges all of the air out of the primary. Then if you quickly and carefully open it up and add hops to the primary you will hopefully not lose too much CO2 or introduce too much air. Other ways would be to fill the secondary almost completely or purge the headspace with CO2 or some other inert gas.

I would think that if you bottle directly from the primary (transferring to a bottling bucket) you will get more sludge and yeast into your soon to be finished product resulting in more sediment in your bottles. something that i have noticed a long time ago when i switched from bottling right off of the primary.

as far as observation is concerned, i use glass carboys so you can see if there is any activity very easily. yes if you transfer when it appears fermentation is complete, you will notice the remaining yeast settling out over the next few days. i often even find myself bottling after 10 days and drinking the beer after 15 days or so.

Why would you get more sludge and yeast in the finished product? If you are letting the beer sit for the same amount of time both ways, then you should get the same amount of sediment settling out of the beer no matter what container it happens to be in. There's nothing magical about a secondary that causes sediment to fall to the bottom faster. So if you have good racking skills there should be no difference in the amount of sludge and yeast in the finished product. I might even expect transferring to be counterproductive because you're probably stirring some of the trub up and mixing it into the secondary when you transfer.

As my pro brewer friend always says, never leave your beer on spent yeast for longer than it needs to be. There is always a chance of generating off flavors from dead yeast if you let a beer sit in primary to long.

This is good advice for commercial breweries with very large cylindroconical fermenters that exert a large amount of pressure on the yeast in the bottom. But as RM-MN said, it doesn't really apply to the small scale of homebrewing.

 

[RM-MN]

This is not how gases behave. They will not settle out like liquids do. All of the gases in the headspace will be constantly mixing and diffusing creating a homogenous mixture. Even if this were true (which it's not), the CO2 would not shield it from dust and bacteria in the headspace air falling into the beer.

But I think the main concern is oxidation from too much headspace in the secondary. Because the gases will mix evenly, you need to minimize the headspace in order to minimize the amount of oxygen that comes in contact with the beer. The best way to do that in my opinion is to not use a secondary at all because the CO2 created during fermentation purges all of the air out of the primary. Then if you quickly and carefully open it up and add hops to the primary you will hopefully not lose too much CO2 or introduce too much air. Other ways would be to fill the secondary almost completely or purge the headspace with CO2 or some other inert gas.



Why would you get more sludge and yeast in the finished product? If you are letting the beer sit for the same amount of time both ways, then you should get the same amount of sediment settling out of the beer no matter what container it happens to be in. There's nothing magical about a secondary that causes sediment to fall to the bottom faster. So if you have good racking skills there should be no difference in the amount of sludge and yeast in the finished product. I might even expect transferring to be counterproductive because you're probably stirring some of the trub up and mixing it into the secondary when you transfer.



This is good advice for commercial breweries with very large cylindroconical fermenters that exert a large amount of pressure on the yeast in the bottom. But as RM-MN said, it doesn't really apply to the small scale of homebrewing.

If you truly believe that the gasses mix and that the heavier CO2 doesn't settle to the bottom and push the oxygen out, put your fermenter in a chest freezer and then on about the third day, open the lid, stick your head in, and take a deep breath. Make sure you have someone there to rescue you when you discover that there is little oxygen in that chest freezer.

 

[peterj]

If you truly believe that the gasses mix and that the heavier CO2 doesn't settle to the bottom and push the oxygen out, put your fermenter in a chest freezer and then on about the third day, open the lid, stick your head in, and take a deep breath. Make sure you have someone there to rescue you when you discover that there is little oxygen in that chest freezer.

I have unfortunately done this more times than I care to admit and gotten a nose full of burning CO2.

I truly believe that there is enough CO2 produced during primary fermentation to completely fill a chest freezer and purge all of the oxygen out. It's not filling it because it's heavier than air, it's filling it because there is so much of it that it displaces all of the air.

I wasn't talking about primary fermentation though. I was referring to maibock's comment that after transferring to secondary the small amount of CO2 that comes out of solution will settle under the oxygen in the headspace and protect the beer from oxidation, which is not correct. If this were true we would all be dead because all of the CO2, ozone, and every other molecule that has a higher molecular weight than O2 would settle to the earth's surface and suffocate us all.

 

[kombat]

If you truly believe that the gasses mix and that the heavier CO2 doesn't settle to the bottom and push the oxygen out, put your fermenter in a chest freezer and then on about the third day, open the lid, stick your head in, and take a deep breath. Make sure you have someone there to rescue you when you discover that there is little oxygen in that chest freezer.

Sure, if you do it with a freezer that has been sealed while the CO2 pushes out all the air, then of course all that's in the freezer the moment you open the lid will be CO2.

The real test would be to do the same experiment, but leave the lid of the freezer open for a couple of days. THEN stick your head in. Is it still pure CO2, or has it mixed with the air in the surrounding room, even though it's in a "well" and, as such, the heavier CO2 should have remained trapped in the freezer cavity?

 

[peterj]

Here's a good explanation of it: http://colinb-sciencebuzz.blogspot.com/2010/01/if-co2-is-so-heavy-why-doesnt-it-sink.html

The Bromine example (second picture) is particularly relevant.

 

[philosofool]

But I think the main concern is oxidation from too much headspace in the secondary. Because the gases will mix evenly, you need to minimize the headspace in order to minimize the amount of oxygen that comes in contact with the beer. The best way to do that in my opinion is to not use a secondary at all because the CO2 created during fermentation purges all of the air out of the primary. Then if you quickly and carefully open it up and add hops to the primary you will hopefully not lose too much CO2 or introduce too much air. Other ways would be to fill the secondary almost completely or purge the headspace with CO2 or some other inert gas.

I would love to see someone test this carefully, because I'm not sure there's a real oxidation risk from racking to secondary. I was talking with a pro who is also an engineer and a scientifically minded guy. He expressed some skepticism that oxidation is a serious problem for unfiltered beer with live yeast in it. He's the sort of guy who would say "Well, you need to test it," but he also thinks that live yeast is a great antioxidant, so that fresh beer, especially in the state when you're racking (still lots of suspended yeast) is probably well protected against oxidation, as long as you're racking carefully and not splashing the hell out of it. Apparently some pros actually add live yeast to filted beer at packaging because they believe that it helps with oxidation on the shelf.

So, yeah, it would be nice to test this.

 

[orangehero]

Apparently you can even take oxidized beer and run it through fresh yeast to clean up some of the oxidation off-flavors.

 

[peterj]

I would love to see someone test this carefully, because I'm not sure there's a real oxidation risk from racking to secondary. I was talking with a pro who is also an engineer and a scientifically minded guy. He expressed some skepticism that oxidation is a serious problem for unfiltered beer with live yeast in it. He's the sort of guy who would say "Well, you need to test it," but he also thinks that live yeast is a great antioxidant, so that fresh beer, especially in the state when you're racking (still lots of suspended yeast) is probably well protected against oxidation, as long as you're racking carefully and not splashing the hell out of it. Apparently some pros actually add live yeast to filted beer at packaging because they believe that it helps with oxidation on the shelf.

So, yeah, it would be nice to test this.

That may be true to some extent, and if we're just talking about the time it takes to dry hop (5-10 days or so) it's probably not much of a problem. But I can tell you from experience that if you leave a beer with too much headspace in the secondary for a longer period of time, you will get some pretty bad oxidation flavors.

But my thoughts on it are that I can't really see any benefits to racking to a secondary, but I can see potential problems (no matter how small the possibility may be). So I usually don't rack. But I agree if you rack carefully and minimize headspace in the secondary then you shouldn't really have to worry about oxidation.

 

[day_trippr]

Gas laws and molecular motion. Tireless busy li'l bastids, ain't they?

It's why "CO2 Blanket" is a myth - and why we're all still alive...

Cheers!

 

[RM-MN]

The reason that that chest freezer is full of CO2 is because the CO2 is heavier than the air that it displaces and pushes the lighter air out first. If you open the freezer and leave it open then the gas laws apply and the two gasses will mix but as long as you leave it closed it traps the CO2 in and keeps the air out. In secondary, you have little CO2 available to push out the air so you fill the carboy to the neck so the CO2 does push out the air. Then the CO2 is kept from mixing by the little bit of water/vodka/whatever in the airlock (notice that it is called an air lock) which limits the mixing because the oxygen needs to diffuse through the liquid and it is being repelled by the pressure of the CO2 on the other side of the liquid. If it were not for the airlock, your beer would oxidize fairly quickly in secondary.