Second Runnings

[chadkarol]

Anyone ever try brewing a second batch of beer after the first mash? I'm going to be brewing a 13% abv barleywine and I'm considering after the first mash, mashing a second time to create a second much lower abv beer. Thoughts?


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[IvanBrew]

I've toyed with the idea a lot, but haven't yet done it. The practice is actually really common in some places. It's referred to as parti-gyle brewing.

There's a pretty decent article on it here:

http://morebeer.com/brewingtechniques/library/backissues/issue2.2/mosher.html

 

[cluckk]

I do it pretty often. I especially like to do it with Scottish ales. You don't mash a second time, unless you are going to cap (add extra fresh grain to the tun). Instead your second runnings are a sparge. A barleywine is a good one to do this with. If you are fly sparging watch your pH to make sure it doesn't go too high.

 

[Leithoa]

Me and a buddy did one a couple years ago. RIS and robust porter were the two we brewed. I've got a few other parti-gyle recipes I want to try. By utilizing a cap of crystal and modified malts not only do you get more gravity in the second runnings but you can also change the character allowing you to brew a barleywine, DIPA, Trippel(Quad?), and then brew an unrelated style with the second beer.

The Mosher article already linked to provides excellent information as well as history. You can also brew three beers by mixing the first and second runnings to get an intermediate gravity wort.
It's a fun practice but be prepared to do a lot of work since you're juggling 2 boils now.

 

[Biergarden]

I do that with all my beers. Even if the second runnings will only give you a 2% beer,then why not? Otherwise those sugars are going to waste. I do ten gallons at a time and collect about 3.5 gallons to fill a three gallon keg post fermentation. Its always a good idea.

 

[Zepth]

I tried this and failed twice. Not being one to advise quitting before you try, I will go on with a couple things I learned first hand.

Lesson 1:
Get your first batch OG. One mistake I made is trying too hard to save second runnings for second batch and missing target OG on first batch. Next time I plan to commit 100% to the first batch, and take any second runnings as a gift from the gods.

Lesson 2: With batch 2 be prepared for a potentially smaller batch. Since one could view this batch as a bonus, if the original is 5 gal and this turns out to be 3-4 take it in stride and be happy. Don't be like me and aim for batch size then take gravity reading and find it disappointingly low.

Lesson 3: If you have the resources to use a huge sparge and boil down to desired volume do it. Makes for a longer boil, but allows more water to rinse grains on either batch resulting in better extraction overall. I can't do this in a practical way as I'm indoors with an electric stove. I have hard enough times getting 3.5-4 gal boiling, let alone reducing volume.

As Leithoa said it is fun, so have some fun with it. Though mine haven't been as successful as I dreamed the process is enjoyable. Happy brewing!

 

[cjgenever]

I party gyle anything big. My 15% abv double imperial ipa fills my 15 gal mash tun! I get three beers out of that one mash. The way to make it easy is to go light to dark. You can mash your giant beer, add specialty malts that need to be steeped, drain them in fifteen min. Another trick that works well for me is to use smaller mash tuns. Mash the primary bill. At the same time, mash the specialty grains with some base@ a high temp to increase body (this will be diluted). I use old ferment buckets and two gallon beverage coolers, whatever you got. After first batch runnings add the runnings from the mini mash to the main. Sparge the mini as needed into the main. Top off the main as needed to sparge for second runnings. Proceed as required. This prevents me from needing to cap. I also bring one batch to 180°f to stop enzyme activity as the batches come through. They then wait in buckets to be boiled separately. If you get three beers out of a mash that's 3+ hrs of mashing. That would be a pretty thin beer!

I also use mineral additions to drop the ph of my fourth sparge. I can this wort to use for starters.

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[cjgenever]

I think zepth made a good point on lesson one. I would like to dive deeper into that.

Prepare your boil recipe on your system efficiency. BE READY to make adjustments. You may need to add dme, dilute with water, or adjust your hops due to missing/overshooting. A good beer depends on a well thought out recipe. If you don't hit your expected gravity that's ok. That means your abv will be lowered, but that doesn't matter because you need to balance your beer. Dme can fix that. Or you settle for a lower abv. Just be sure to stick to the recipe, which requires you to adjust your hop additions on the fly. There are a lot of ways to reach the same goal (good beer). You get to decide what works for you.

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[solo_smith]

I just did a partigyle today. 5 gallons of a Belgian dark strong (which included 2lbs homemade candi syrup) and 5 gallons of oatmeal stout. The Belgian finished out at 1.098, so I added specially grains and oatmeal for the stout which came in at 1.058.

It is really simple to do partigyles, and it just takes a little more time. I usually have one boiling while the second is steeping, then start the boil of the second beer as the first is finishing. Clean first pot and mash tun while second boils. I started at 10a and was done by 4p. Total grain bill and yeast cost $38.


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[PetenNewburg]

I used to sparge with a extra gallon or two, using some to top up to the desired boil volume then boil the extra to make future starters. I intended to do the same thing on the Pale Ale I brewed the other day, but it smelled like boiled wood, tannins I guess.

To do the parti-gyle should I hold off the hot sparge until drawing off the second wort, or wait until both are pulled. Then do a 168 degree rest on the boil(s)?

 

[cjgenever]

If your topping it with a grain that must be mashed then you don't want to disable the enzymes. Otherwise, it wouldn't much matter.

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[chadkarol]

So this is my plan for my barleywine and red ale using all the same grains. We'll see how this works out.


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[Biergarden]

View attachment 183952

So this is my plan for my barleywine and red ale using all the same grains. We'll see how this works out.


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You might want to make 2 starters just in case you need to re pitch more should the fermentation become stuck. I've had to do the same, even with a stepped up starter to match the OG.
Looks like it will be nice though.

 

[PetenNewburg]

View attachment 183952

So this is my plan for my barleywine and red ale using all the same grains. We'll see how this works out.


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What is your mash plan for your initial mash? What will your Steps & Temps be, Sparge or no Sparge. Mash Out for second running's?

Pete

 

[chadkarol]

My plan is just a single infusion mash at 150. I'll do an initial sparge to get the volume I need. My main concern is the first brew. I want to make sure I don't do anything different than normal simply to make a second batch. Then while the first brew is boiling I'll sparge again. If the gravity of the second sparge looks acceptable then I'll go with it and boil the second batch.


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[MamaSuesBrews]

I tried a parti-gyle about 6 weeks ago month. I have a 5 gallon igloo set up. I was aiming for an 8% stout that I was going to rack onto a secondary over peanut butter powder, cocoa nibs and raspberries for a PBJ taste. The second runnings was supposed to be a 4% brown ale - take first runnings and then add box of PB Captain Crunch to get a brown ale with a hint of PB. The plan was to let the cereal steep whilst I did the first boil, then crack on with the second boil. I was aiming for about 3.5 gallons final volume for both.

What actually happened was I got a stuck sparge on the first runnings due to the large grain bill - I have learnt a valuable lesson for next time re using rice hulls. Once I cleared up that mess I ended up with much lower OG than desired - ended up about 5% in the end. I thought "bugger it" I'll keep going and see what happens. The brown ale turned out at 3% - I only got about 3 gallons for each - so I pretty much messed it up.......HOWEVER the brown ale is actually pretty nice - quite roasty, malty with a slight PB hint. It is still very young so I've had a couple but will leave the rest for another month or so.

I've not tried the PBJ Stout yet - will leave that for a couple of months also. I would definately do it again - it was fun (even the stuck sparge - my first ever so a good learning experience). You are busier than a one armed paper hanger and you need to be organised but I reckon it is a very efficient way to brew if you're doing something big.

I called them - big brown dog and small brown dog (you can guess which)


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[chadkarol]

Hopefully I don't have a stuck sparge. Not only is this my first gyle attempt but also my highest gravity beer by far. This will be around 1.120. Highest I've done in the past was around 1.080. My end goal is to make sure everything goes right with the first brew. If the second brew works out the great. If it doesn't I won't be upset about it.


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[PetenNewburg]

I tried a parti-gyle about 6 weeks ago month. I have a 5 gallon igloo set up. I was aiming for an 8% stout that I was going to rack onto a secondary over peanut butter powder, cocoa nibs and raspberries for a PBJ taste. The second runnings was supposed to be a 4% brown ale - take first runnings and then add box of PB Captain Crunch to get a brown ale with a hint of PB. The plan was to let the cereal steep whilst I did the first boil, then crack on with the second boil. I was aiming for about 3.5 gallons final volume for both.

What actually happened was I got a stuck sparge on the first runnings due to the large grain bill - I have learnt a valuable lesson for next time re using rice hulls. Once I cleared up that mess I ended up with much lower OG than desired - ended up about 5% in the end. I thought "bugger it" I'll keep going and see what happens. The brown ale turned out at 3% - I only got about 3 gallons for each - so I pretty much messed it up.......HOWEVER the brown ale is actually pretty nice - quite roasty, malty with a slight PB hint. It is still very young so I've had a couple but will leave the rest for another month or so.

I've not tried the PBJ Stout yet - will leave that for a couple of months also. I would definately do it again - it was fun (even the stuck sparge - my first ever so a good learning experience). You are busier than a one armed paper hanger and you need to be organised but I reckon it is a very efficient way to brew if you're doing something big.

I called them - big brown dog and small brown dog (you can guess which)View attachment 184453


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My first BIG batch all grain also got stuck, probably due to lack of rice hulls, but it was also the first time I ground my own grain. I was using a cheap Chinese version of the Victoria style mill. On my next batch I opened up the adjustment on the mill, but efficiency dropped, so I closed the gap and started using rice hulls. I recently bought a Malt Mill Barley Crusher. The crush is very nice, I quit using rice hulls when I'm using fresh grain.

Will you give your first run a 168 degree rest to stimulate full conversion before the boil?

 

[PetenNewburg]

If your topping it with a grain that must be mashed then you don't want to disable the enzymes. Otherwise, it wouldn't much matter.

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Please excuse me for being a PITA. If you do a 168 degree mash out with your first run, you will add tannin off flavors to the Second running. If you do NOT bring your "mash" to 168 degrees, you will not complete the required starch conversion cycle. Simply bringing the first run up to boil with out a rest will lower efficiency, ABV and flavor.

I have thought about doing a 2 x IPA or IMP. Stout, Dough-in rest @ 122, removing a decoction, (1/4 - 1/3 of the first main/ mash center to a second kettle), sparge the first run at 154 degrees, making sure to keep the mash "floating", re-sparge (for the second run) @168 WITH the removed decoction boiled, to achieve the desired second mash volume.

Give the first run a 168 degree 10 minute rest, in the boil kettle. The second run will already have it's conversion rest and will be ready to boil.

I am pretty new to brewing, so I may have missed a point or two, three, four in the books I've read. I have used the "second" running's for starters a few times with good success, basically a second small brew. It just seems to me that a Parti-Gyle does not need to be difficult, but failure to observe basic brewing technics will result in a skanky second batch. If so, toss an extra ounce or two of hops in the fermenter.......:cross:

 

[IvanBrew]

Please excuse me for being a PITA. If you do a 168 degree mash out with your first run, you will add tannin off flavors to the Second running. If you do NOT bring your "mash" to 168 degrees, you will not complete the required starch conversion cycle. Simply bringing the first run up to boil with out a rest will lower efficiency, ABV and flavor.

This isn't precisely accurate.

If you do a 168 degree mash out with your first run, you might add tannin off flavors to the second running.

If you do NOT bring your "mash" to 168 degrees, you can complete the required starch conversion cycle.



If pH is in the appropriate range, raising to 168 F will not, by itself, cause tannin extraction. Better would be to let the temperature fall back to more normal mash temps during the main wort boil and then raise again, if desired, before sparging the 2nd batch.

168 F is used to shut down enzymatic activity. It's not directly a part of starch conversion. You can absolutely get full conversion without doing a mashout. You'll simply leave enzymes active until temp gets over 168 in the boil kettle, which "might" somewhat alter your fermentability.

The bigger reason for the 168 rest is to thin out the mash so that sparge happens faster, with less risk of sticking, and greater sugar extraction from the grain. I'd think raising it back for the 2nd batch is less important, as the wort is already quite thin.

 

[PetenNewburg]

This isn't precisely accurate.

If you do a 168 degree mash out with your first run, you might add tannin off flavors to the second running.

If you do NOT bring your "mash" to 168 degrees, you can complete the required starch conversion cycle.



If pH is in the appropriate range, raising to 168 F will not, by itself, cause tannin extraction. Better would be to let the temperature fall back to more normal mash temps during the main wort boil and then raise again, if desired, before sparging the 2nd batch.

168 F is used to shut down enzymatic activity. It's not directly a part of starch conversion. You can absolutely get full conversion without doing a mashout. You'll simply leave enzymes active until temp gets over 168 in the boil kettle, which "might" somewhat alter your fermentability.

The bigger reason for the 168 rest is to thin out the mash so that sparge happens faster, with less risk of sticking, and greater sugar extraction from the grain. I'd think raising it back for the 2nd batch is less important, as the wort is already quite thin.

Thank You! I have inquired about this a few times in other threads and other forums, but this explanation is what I was looking for. Hitting the 168 ENDS the conversion, anything un-converted, stays un-converted. I neglected to consider the PH factor in the tannin flavor extraction.

This still gives credence to my thought of not raising the mash temp to 168 until both worts have been removed. Obviously the mash will "thin", but the longer the mash stays submerged at a lower temperature, the greater amount of viable wort will be available.

Is that correct?

 

[IvanBrew]

This still gives credence to my thought of not raising the mash temp to 168 until both worts have been removed. Obviously the mash will "thin", but the longer the mash stays submerged at a lower temperature, the greater amount of viable wort will be available.

Is that correct?

Sort of, but it depends...

Cliff Notes Version:

I don't think that staying at mash temps after conversion is complete has any benefit.



Long Version:

Usually the term "conversion" is used to refer to the process of converting starches to sugars. Conversion is "complete" when no starches remain, and the iodine test can be used to measure this.

In that regard, letting temperature remain in the mash range beyond beyond conversion does nothing. Complete is complete.

The process is a bit more complex than that, though... I apologize in advance if I start telling you things you already know...

The two main enzymes responsible for conversion are alpha and beta amylase. They're active at different bands and work slightly differently. Beta amylase works by snipping individual maltose molecules off at the end of a longer chain sugar (or starch). Alpha amylase snips the chain anywhere in the middle, creating shorter chains than the original, but usually still producing a "complex" sugar. If both enzymes are active, beta amylase will continue to reduce the sugars that alpha amylase produces.

So... if you are mashing at a temperature low enough to have left beta amylase intact, but high enough for alpha amylase to also be working, there may be a point at which an iodine test shows conversion is complete, but beta amylase is still making more simple sugars. It's not very likely, though.

Beta amylase is denatured at most mash temps. How quickly it denatures depends on time, temp, and pH. Any mash that's gone on long enough to fully convert, and has spent any time above 149 F, has "probably" denatured most or all of the beta amylase.

 

[pigroaster]

Any chance of learning how to make homemade candy syrup?

 

[IvanBrew]

Any chance of learning how to make homemade candy syrup?

That's just a bit outside the scope of this thread, but check this out: http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html