Color extraction

[pvtpublic]

I'm on my second batch of brown ale. I have done everything exactly the same as the first time, I've even hit the same numbers. I've built the water exactly the same, everything seems to be the same. The problem is that the color, and therefor the flavor is incredibly different. The first batch was almost perfect beer, the second, turned out the color of Sierra Nevada pale ale.

Strike with 120gal RO @ 168*F, 150mL LA, 202g gypsum, 88g epsom, 20g salt, 3g CaCl
Target temp 154*F for 90 min
Grist
Pale 2-row 70%
Carapils 8%
Wheat malt 7.5%
Crystal 30 6.3%
Crystal 120 2.5%
Roasted wheat 2.5%
Munich 60 1.8%
Roasted barley 1.3%

The two roasted malts are added at the last 15 min of the mash and recirculated.

What could have caused this?

 

[pvtpublic]

The color in the photo doesn't show the actual color, but it still illustrates my point.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I add all malts at the start of the mash without any off flavours. I suspect late mash additions is a brewing myth.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I suspect late mash additions is a brewing myth.

One source for the idea of adding dark roasted malts later in the mash is the books Brewing Better Beer (2013) and Modern Home Brew Recipes (2016). The author's reasons for doing it are in the book.

 

[pvtpublic]

I add all malts at the start of the mash without any off flavours. I suspect late mash additions is a brewing myth.

Back in my home brewing days, I never had this issue. I've made stout after stout, and they've all came out the same.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

What could have caused this?

a missed ingredient? or a mis-labeled / mis-packaged ingredient?

 

[pvtpublic]

One source for the idea of adding dark roasted malts later in the mash is the books Brewing Better Beer (2013) and Modern Home Brew Recipes (2016). The author's reasons for doing it are in the book.

It's discussed quite often over many podcasts

 

[pvtpublic]

a missed ingredient? or a mis-labeled / mis-packaged ingredient?

I check them off as I add them to the mill. Its very unlikely, but I won't rule it out entirely.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, the concept of holding back on dark malts 'til late in the mash is to avoid driving the mash pH down below the ideal range. Presumably the technique does not actually affect color and flavor...

Cheers!

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Adding baking soda will overcome the dark malt acidity.

 

[day_trippr]

At the expense of adding a crapton of sodium. Which is one of the reasons for that technique...

Cheers!

 

[pvtpublic]

Not just that, but also pulling astringency from the darker grains.

 

[pvtpublic]

Just finished doing a porter, and I added everything to the mash, 90 minutes, stirred the entire time.
Special B 5%, roasted barley 2.5%, and roasted wheat 2.5%. I even had two fellow brewers come in. I picked their brains, to no avail.

Beersmith pegs this at 26 SRM, but check the pic, this ain't no stinkin' 26 SRM.

 

[day_trippr]

That looks like Special B without all the roasted malts. Reviewing the grain bill I would definitely have expected the 5% roasted grains (should be up in the 600+ Lovibond range?) to dominate the color but that's a huge miss right there...

 

[pvtpublic]

The base grist was my concoction, but the dark grain bill is Jamil's porter grist percentages.

 

[day_trippr]

Is it possible for a malt to suck the color out of the mash?

 

[doug293cz]

Were all of the darker grains from the same supplier(s) as the previous batch? I sounds like you mill your own grains - was the mill gap setting and speed the same for both batches?

Brew on

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Special B 5%, roasted barley 2.5%, and roasted wheat 2.5%. I even had two fellow brewers come in. I picked their brains, to no avail.

A couple of next steps:

1. verify that the *L for the actual malts matches *L for the values used for the estimates
2. double check the configuration / assumptions used for the estimate

I would definitely have expected the 5% roasted grains (should be up in the 600+ Lovibond range?) to dominate the color

Agreed.

More information about the grain bill (brand name for malts, *L of the malts, actual weight of the malts users, etc) would have been helpful.

 

[hotbeer]

It's looks pretty murky with stuff suspended in it. You might wait while longer and let all that settle out. Color and taste will change then.

Allowing for the suspended solids, it looks about 26 SRM to me. But I have seen disagreements between SRM charts as to what each color is.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

eta: ... or agree on another color chart for purposes of this topic.

 

[pvtpublic]

A couple of next steps:

1. verify that the *L for the actual malts matches *L for the values used for the estimates
2. double check the configuration / assumptions used for the estimate

Agreed.

More information about the grain bill (brand name for malts, *L of the malts, actual weight of the malts users, etc) would have been helpful.

I've entered these malts into beersmith by hand, so I know that's not the issue. I know it's not the brand of malts, since this problem carries over.

As I've said previously, I didn't have this problem at first, it just started happening a few batches ago.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Let's go back to the initial problem (one brown ale recipe, brewed twice, with two different results)

I'm on my second batch of brown ale. I have done everything exactly the same as the first time, I've even hit the same numbers. I've built the water exactly the same, everything seems to be the same. The problem is that the color, and therefor the flavor is incredibly different.

If the ingredients are the same (brand and lot) and there are no accidental mix-ups (mislabeled bag, picked wrong ingredient), an accidental process change (or inconsistent process results) might explain the difference.

There may be a seasonal/weather consideration, since "it just started happening a few batches ago".

If the color / flavor differences are related to the roasted malts, reviewing processes that use those malts might be a good place to start.

The ability to do word / phrases searches on the two books mentioned earlier will likely offer additional insights into the processes that the book uses.

I don't know enough about your processes (or the differences between 5 gal and 120 gal batches) to continue further.

 

[hotbeer]

View attachment 835852

eta: ... or agree on another color chart for purposes of this topic.

If the stuff suspended in the beer that is making it murky settle, it will look darker. So maybe it'd be in the 20 to 24 range of that chart. But maybe more likely the 18 to 20 range.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

WRT color, there is also this:

https://www.brewingwithbriess.com/blog/defining-wort-colors-red-malts-vs-black-malts/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

A couple of observations, maybe unrelated to OPs problem, on color extraction

Extraction of color (crystal vs roasted): see the grain bill and "Formulation Notes" in the "Four Seas IPA" recipe in Modern Home Brew Recipes for a rather unique technique.

"cold steep" timing, color, and OG (refractometer) measurements. (I'm not aware of any "hot steep" measurements. most DME/LME kit/book recipes use on 30 minutes @ 155F or "from flame-on to 160F" (for me that's 20+ minutes).

• “Cold Water Extraction of Dark Grains” by Mary Anne Gruber (Zymurgy Jan 2002). (mentioned in Brewing Better Beer).
• as noted else where, I did some short cold steep trials, visually observing color and measuring SG. The color/SG tended to stabilize at about 25 or 30 minutes. My process used a smaller "side pot" (while the kettle was heating), the grains were not in a bag, and I stirred the steeped grains every five minutes.

I have no idea if any of this translates to a late mash addition in a 120 gal batch.