Second batch -- Band aids, Blech, Some Questions

[tragic8ball]

My second batch of John Palmer's Cincinnati Pale Ale didn't go so hot. After two weeks in the bottle, there is a distinct Listerine smell and a similar taste, leaving a dry feeling on the roof of my mouth. Closest I can figure, by reading taste trouble-shooting posts, is that this sounds like the vinyl/band-aids flavor that some people describe.

The major differences between the first and second batch are:

1. Full 60 minute boil on a propane burner outside. (First batch was a crappy boil on my electric stove)

2. PBW + StarSan (First batch was Easy Clean)

3. Fermentation bucket was placed in a water bath to keep temperatures down to about 64-68 (First batch was simply placed in the basement at about 70-72, Missouri, like Hell, is warm.)

and the winner for most likely to have screwed up my batch?

4. Kansas City tap water, which has used chloramines since 1967. (First batch I used spring water)

...

So I think I'm going to make a third attempt at this recipe, and go back to grocery store spring water.

In both cases, my FG was pretty high (1.02, from an OG of about 1.045). I used Muntons standard dry yeast. What are some things I can do to get a lower FG?

 

[scrambledegg81]

Well, Band-Aid flavors are never a good sign, but even though it's tempting to toss the rest out, I'd give it another 2-3 weeks in bottle and see what it's like then.

It seems to me, reading a bit more into your post, that even though your first batch was using sub-par water, and used a lower intensity boil, it still turned out better, so that leaves me to believe it might be an infection developing somewhere.

Some questions:

-Do you use plastic utensils/buckets anywhere in your bottling? Plastic scratches easily (even food grade stuff), so it's easier for bacteria to make a home in.

-Anywhere in the bottling procedure that might have introduced oxygen to the beer? Even a minor slosh, or leaving the beer exposed to air for more than a few minutes can contaminate it.

-Do you use a bottle brush or Avvinatore to clean your bottles with, or do you just soak them in sanitizer before use? Definitely easy for bacteria to grow in bottles if not scrubbed thoroughly before hand. I use the Avvinatore to clean out mine, and also put caps in a Tupperware of sanitizer, and just pull them out one by one as I bottle.

 

[dogma9]

now i'm very new, but i thought i would write what my mrbeer kit manual says about medicinal flavor (band-aids, burnt plastic, or chloriseptic flavors) are formed by proteins in the malt and hops, combining with left over chlorine in the brewing water. this chlorine can be found when brewing water is heavily chlorinated. If this occurs use store bought spring water for brewing.

 

[tragic8ball]

Just to clarify, it was the second batch (the most recent one) that used tap water. The first batch, which turned out well, used spring water. I was pretty intent about having a good first batch, and I didn't really know about Kansas City tap water. Between batches, I read that it had won awards for quality several times in recent years, so I figured it was safe, and that any adverse chemicals would be boiled off. This was before I read abut the chloramines. We have had a particularly hot summer, and I've read that muni water treatment facilities can up the chlorination to prevent bacterial growth in hotter months.

-Do you use plastic utensils/buckets anywhere in your bottling? Plastic scratches easily (even food grade stuff), so it's easier for bacteria to make a home in.

Plastic bottling bucket, clear plastic racking cane, clear plastic hose, clear plastic bottle filler. All soaked and lightly scrubbed in PBW and sanitized with StarSan. The cane, hose assembly, and bottle filler have cleaner run through them repeatedly, then rinsed through repeatedly, and then sanitizer. The racking cane actually looks lightly scratched all around the inside, like cellophane almost, even after just a single previous use, and I'm wondering if that is due to temperature variation from using very hot water in cleaning and rinsing.

-Anywhere in the bottling procedure that might have introduced oxygen to the beer? Even a minor slosh, or leaving the beer exposed to air for more than a few minutes can contaminate it.

One thing I did forget to mention was that I accidentally racked about a gallon and a half before preparing the priming solution. In about 15-20 minutes, I prepared a solution of boiled sugar, siphoned carefully back into the primary, poured the sugar into the bottling bucket, and siphoned the batch into the bottling bucket. Perhaps the act of switching the buckets, re-siphoning about a gallon and a half, switching them back, and siphoning off the whole batch introduced some oxygen. I was very careful, however, in minimizing bubbling.

Other than that, everything else went per usual. My bottle filling technique appears to cause a few bubbles at the neck, but how to avoid that? Also nothing changed about the way I filled bottles between batches.

-Do you use a bottle brush or Avvinatore to clean your bottles with, or do you just soak them in sanitizer before use? Definitely easy for bacteria to grow in bottles if not scrubbed thoroughly before hand. I use the Avvinatore to clean out mine, and also put caps in a Tupperware of sanitizer, and just pull them out one by one as I bottle.

About half of the bottles I knew were clean, and I ran them through a rinse in the dishwasher. The other half were re-used bottles, and they were soaked in PBW for about an hour, scrubbed with a bottling brush, and rinsed. About an hour prior to bottling, I use the Avvinatore with StarSan sanitizing solution on all the bottles and placed them on a bottling tree. I also have my bottle caps in sanitizer in a small dish while I bottle.

I believe I am getting the same taste out the dishwasher-rinsed bottles that I am out of the soaked-and-rinsed bottles.

 

[Yooper]

The medicinal flavor is more than likely from the tap water. You can treat your tap water by adding 1/2 a crushed campden tablet to it, and then letting it sit overnight if you don't want to go buy spring water. You just get out the big primary fermenter, and add 6 gallons water to it and then add the campden tablet. The next day, the chloramines will be gone. I'd probably just get RO water from the store- I do that now for some of my beers and it's $.78 for two gallons at the store I go to. If you don't mind buying water, that's a good choice.

The other thing that may be causing you some issues is the Munton's yeast. That yeast is NOT designed to be used for all-malt beers. It's the yeast you use for those kits that add sugar for a large percentage of fermentables. There is a Munton's Gold, and that is supposed to be better than the standard yeast in fermenting all-malt batches, but I'm not convinced. I'd buy either Safale S04 or S05 if you want to use dry yeast.

 

[tragic8ball]

If store-bought, should I still boil and cool the preliminary 3 gallons?

The medicinal flavor is more than likely from the tap water. You can treat your tap water by adding 1/2 a crushed campden tablet to it, and then letting it sit overnight if you don't want to go buy spring water. You just get out the big primary fermenter, and add 6 gallons water to it and then add the campden tablet. The next day, the chloramines will be gone. I'd probably just get RO water from the store- I do that now for some of my beers and it's $.78 for two gallons at the store I go to. If you don't mind buying water, that's a good choice.

The other thing that may be causing you some issues is the Munton's yeast. That yeast is NOT designed to be used for all-malt beers. It's the yeast you use for those kits that add sugar for a large percentage of fermentables. There is a Munton's Gold, and that is supposed to be better than the standard yeast in fermenting all-malt batches, but I'm not convinced. I'd buy either Safale S04 or S05 if you want to use dry yeast.

 

[BeerJorge]

All soaked and lightly scrubbed in PBW and sanitized with StarSan. The cane, hose assembly, and bottle filler have cleaner run through them repeatedly, then rinsed through repeatedly, and then sanitizer. The racking cane actually looks lightly scratched all around the inside, like cellophane almost, even after just a single previous use, and I'm wondering if that is due to temperature variation from using very hot water in cleaning and rinsing.

Chloramine will definitely give you the medicinal taste you are describing... it is hard to remove by boiling so you can either buy spring water or treat your water with campden tablets. I believe one tablet treats up to 20 gallons...

This is more than likely your source of medicinal taste, otherwise it would most likely be from cleaning and sanitizing. Since you are using PBW and Starsan I doubt it, unless when you say "very hot water" you mean you are using water over 150 F, which PBW doesn't like...

For now focus on the water...

 

[Yooper]

If store-bought, should I still boil and cool the preliminary 3 gallons?

I wouldn't boil bottled water. That seems like overkill to me.

 

[Wellshooter]

If you opt for spring water at the store be forewarned that not all spring water is created equal and some may even have chloramines in it. If you switch brands you will switch the taste of the final product. I buy RO water from a dispenser (same one every time), it just helps with consistency. Being consistent is one of the keys to being a good brewer, because then you can 'fine tune' without introducing a new variable every brew day.

 

[tragic8ball]

Is there a liquid yeast that I can use in place of dry for an APA? Perhaps a Wyeast strain smack pack I can have ready in about 3 hours?

The other thing that may be causing you some issues is the Munton's yeast. That yeast is NOT designed to be used for all-malt beers. It's the yeast you use for those kits that add sugar for a large percentage of fermentables. There is a Munton's Gold, and that is supposed to be better than the standard yeast in fermenting all-malt batches, but I'm not convinced. I'd buy either Safale S04 or S05 if you want to use dry yeast.

 

[tragic8ball]

Doesn't RO water remove pretty much everything? I thought it was good to have a trace amount of minerals in your water.

If you opt for spring water at the store be forewarned that not all spring water is created equal and some may even have chloramines in it. If you switch brands you will switch the taste of the final product. I buy RO water from a dispenser (same one every time), it just helps with consistency. Being consistent is one of the keys to being a good brewer, because then you can 'fine tune' without introducing a new variable every brew day.

 

[Wellshooter]

I had my 'RO' water tested by Ward Labs. It still had minerals, just not as much as the tap water. RO water is not the same as distilled water which should not have ANY minerals.

Actually I'm not sure it is honest to gosh RO water. I fill up 5 gallon bottles at a vending machine. I just know that it tested better as a base water when I compared tap water and the vending machine water at Ward Labs.