Searched and found conflicting answers - wiring heat element question

[rkhanso]

I've searched and found conflicting answers so I thought I needed clarification before I wire up my 5500w 240v heat element today.

I have a Spa Panel with GFCI that I'll be connecting a 3-prong 240v wall outlet that the brew controller box plugs into for power to the heat element. I believe the Spa Panel GFCI breaker monitors the neutral line for voltage to trip the GFCI part of the breaker. Does this mean that I need to connect the Ground terminal on the wall outlet to the (1)Neutral bus bar of the panel so a fault can be detected by the GFCI? Or, connect the ground wire of that run to the outlet to the (2)ground bus bar of the Spa Panel? I've seen both answers on this forum.

I've seen some posts where they're connecting the ground on the outlet to the ground on the spa panel. This doesn't seem correct to me if the GFCI is not monitoring ground for faults, but instead - watching neutral (which the GFCI came with a white wire on the breaker with instructions to connect it to the neutral bus of the spa panel).

So, I'm pretty sure I need to use the neutral bus in the spa panel to go to ground on the wall outlet. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Next, should I use the white wire or ground wire for this connection? I'm not sure what would be code since I would suspect the white wire in the Spa Panel, but the ground wire at the wall outlet.

 

[Thedutchtouch]

I replaced my dryer outlet to have 4 wire service to plug in my spa panel so have not done this myself, but I believe you wire everything up as normal and put a jumper between ground and neutral in the spa panel. Similarly to how you bond ground to neutral in the dryer when using a 3 wire plug. I'm not an electrician and didn't wire this way myself so let someone else could firm before you go ahead and wire this way.

 

[rkhanso]

I'm sure that's not kosher connecting ground and neutral in a spa panel. Functionally OK, maybe - I guess. But not to code.
Only in the main panel is the ground and neutral supposed to be tied together. Never anywhere else in another panel in the house.

 

[Thedutchtouch]

I'm sure that's not kosher connecting ground and neutral in a spa panel. Functionally OK, maybe - I guess. But not to code.
Only in the main panel is the ground and neutral supposed to be tied together. Never anywhere else in another panel in the house.

This has been discussed a lot... Like here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/3-wire-spa-gfi-control-box.577754/. Basically, it's not to code if it's hardwired in to the house. If the spa panel is wired to a plug, it's treated as an appliance, not a sub panel so it's "ok" (just like how a dryer has ground and neutral bonded if you wire a 3 wire cord/whip) Again, in my opinion the best thing to do is to replace the 3 wire feed with a 4 wire hot/hot/neutral/ground, but that wasn't what it seemed was what you were asking

 

[SoCal-Doug]

The only place the neutral should be bonded to ground is at the breaker box, which i would be confident it already is. Don't make another ground to neutral connection. Have your outlet rewired if need be.

In my case, I found that my dryer outlet (originally a 3-wire from years ago) already had a 4-wire connection to the breaker box. They ran the two hot's and neutral to the outlet and connected the ground wire to the box. All I had to do was buy a new outlet. Depending on the age of your home, you may find this is also the case.

 

[rkhanso]

I'm a little confused on SoCal-Doug's reply - which posts above are correct?

All the panels I'm working on are sub-panels. My main box in the house has neutral and ground tied together. This is normal and from what I've seen the ONLY place that neutral and ground are supposed to be tied together.

I have a sub-panel in the garage that I installed for a welder outlet. It has 4 wires from the main panel in the house....2 hot, neutral and ground.

In the sub-panel, I ran 4-wires to a Spa Panel. All 4 wires are separate.... ie. the 2 hots go to the hot lugs in the panel, the neutral goes to the neutral bus and the ground to the ground bus.

From the Spa Panel, I'm putting a 240v outlet on the wall to plug the Brew Controller into. I don't need neutral in the controller as there is nothing that runs on 120v.

My question is: since I have the GFCI breaker in the spa panel that is doing the GFCI protection for the kettle heat element - do I need to use the Neutral from the spa panel on the ground screw at the kettle to get the GFCI to monitor and trip if there is trouble? Or, should I use the ground wire coming from the ground bus at the spa panel to the ground screw on the kettle heat element?

The GFCI in the spa panel came with a white wire that is supposed to be connected to the neutral bus in the Spa Panel. The instructions said that it monitors for voltage differences in the neutral to trip. This is why I thought that I might need to use the neutral going to the ground on the kettle heat element. I really have no need for a 4-wire outlet going to the brew controller since the kettle heat element only needs 3 connections.

The link that Thedutchtouch posted has a lot of contradicting answers. I'm not sure what is correct in that thread. But I think more people said to use ground wire (not neutral) going to the brew controller and then on to the ground screw at the kettle heating element. I think the consensus is that the GFCI can sense a difference in voltage between the 2 hots and still trip, regardless if there is a neutral or ground in play.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Maybe I misread (I haven't had enough coffee yet today).

If you are not using the neutral on your rig, just don't use it, that's ok. The ground is the ground. The neutral in the spa panel connects to the neutral in your sub panel. When I hear "connect neutral to ground" I cringe. Because the ground is connected to the neutral, way back at the origination point, they are actually connected and the GFCI will see the potential (or lack thereof) in the neutral even though you are not using it in the rig (i.e. a fault in the ground). Make sure your rig itself is connected to the ground (control box, frame, kettles at the elements, etc).

 

[rkhanso]

Got it. Thanks.
Here's the control box so far - no wiring connected yet. I'm waiting for the JB Weld holding the heat-sink to set.

 

[augiedoggy]

Got it. Thanks.
Here's the control box so far - no wiring connected yet. I'm waiting for the JB Weld holding the heat-sink to set.

View attachment 549180

You can easily drill it and use screws too... that how I attached mine.

 

[lschiavo]

You can easily drill it and use screws too... that how I attached mine.

I have to agree with this. I only use jb weld it I don't care if my project falls apart... So, never

 

[rkhanso]

It's all together - well...almost. I just need to get the 12v DC power jack installed on the controller box. But, it's functional now.

I'm running the PID auto-tune right now and then will do a boil after that. It's 32F in my garage today. I'm curious how long it will take the 5500 watt element to get the water up to temp. I started with about 70F water.

 

[rkhanso]

It took about 40 minutes to go from 70F to 152F. PID tune is still happening.

 

[itsnotrequired]

since you have two hots, a neutral and a ground at your spa panel, you are golden. attach the white pigtail on the gfci breaker to the neutral bar in the gfci panel. do not connect it to ground and do not tie the ground/neutral bars in the spa panel together. a two-pole gfci has a current transformer in it thru which both hots and the neutral pass through. in a true 240v brew panel with no 120V loads, what comes in on the black conductor goes back to the source panelboard through the red conductor. if these don't balance, it means the total current going in doesn't match the total current coming back which means it is going through something else downstream of the gfci (i.e. your body). with no neutral (i.e. 120V loads), there will never be current on the white wire but the 240v circuit is still protected.

many gfci breakers need that neutral connection for the test button to function properly. the gfci will still function properly without the neutral, it is just the test button won't work. the problem is when there is NOT a neutral coming into the spa panel and folks start jumpering neutral to ground...