Scorched Element

[cjp4627]

Hey Guys,

Last night I brewed for the second time on my all electric two vessel setup. It has a 2kw HWD 120v element in the boil kettle. I also use the boil kettle to heat the strike water.

I was brewing a pumpkin ale and had a tough time with a VERY slow sparge but finally got it all squared away and in the kettle. I started the boil, waited for the hot break and then added my hops and set the one hour timer. I started doing some other stuff since its mostly on autopilot now. About twenty minutes into the boil, I was away from it for about ten minutes when I smelled something burning. I ran to the kettle and it was almost ready to boil over so I stirred the worth quickly and the foam went away. I thought at first I had avoided the crisis. That was until I smelled the steam coming off the wort and it was burnt smelling beyond belief. I decided to finish the boil and see how it tasted. After the boil I tasted it and it was disgustingly burnt tasting. I dumped it out and I started to clean up. As I was cleaning up, I saw the element and it was partially covered in a VERY dark residue that seemed to chip off if i used a spoon try and scrape the element. Then at the bottom of the kettle I found more of the residue that had fallen off while I soaked it in oxyclean and ran the element a little.

Now the element still works and everything appears to be okay with the system. I was running the element at 100% but it didn't seem to hurt anything during my first beer I brewed on the system. I know it might be over kill but the boil didn't seem too aggressive to hurt anything.

The only thing I can think of that could cause this is that while bringing the wort up to boiling, I wasn't recirculating with my pump. This mean I get some pretty significant temperatures differences throughout the kettle. Is is possible it started to burn during this time and then it all fell apart during the boil? The boil started just fine and it smelled awesome but then whatever happened, happened, and it wasn't salvageable.

Any input is greatly appreciated!

Caleb

 

[P-J]

So very sorry for the loss of your brew.

This incident is another reason that I always recommend using a LWD element for the boil. With a HWD element, the surface temperature can be extremely high.

I'd replace the element with a LWD Incoloy unit.

But that's just me.

P-J

 

[jkarp]

Never had a scorched brew in 3 years of using HWD elements, but then I've never brewed with pumpkin. Contrary to P-J's opinion, as long as there's convective currents carrying the heat away, the surface temp of the element isn't much above boiling. Many of us use nylon bags for our hops that touch the element for an hour or more and they don't melt.

 

[jlachesk]

I'm certainly not an expert, but my guess would be the amount of particulate matter (likely much higher than normal as a result of the pumpkin) is the real culprit here.
I'd be curious to see if you had similar results with an equally high SG wort without pumpkin.

 

[cjp4627]

I brewed a Pale Ale last Monday with a slightly lower SG, maybe like 1.038 vs 1.048 for the pumpkin and had no sign of anything like this. I guess I might try using the pumpkin right in the fermentor next time. Hopefully i can't still get some flavor out of it that way.

 

[jkarp]

Just pulling this out of my a**, but I wonder if some kind of gelatinization happened during heating. Anything that impedes the liquid circulation can lead to large vapor pockets where the element temp would rise dramatically. RIMS brewers sometimes run into this when the flow through the RIMS tube is too slow.

 

[P-J]

Never had a scorched brew in 3 years of using HWD elements, but then I've never brewed with pumpkin. Contrary to P-J's opinion, as long as there's convective currents carrying the heat away, the surface temp of the element isn't much above boiling. Many of us use nylon bags for our hops that touch the element for an hour or more and they don't melt.

ABSOLUTELY no dispute.

The inclusion of pumpkin in the mixture changes the whole realm of things - IMHO.

Just saying.

You are right on the money - but?

Again, no dispute.

P-J

 

[P-J]

Just pulling this out of my a**, but I wonder if some kind of gelatinization happened during heating. Anything that impedes the liquid circulation can lead to large vapor pockets where the element temp would rise dramatically. RIMS brewers sometimes run into this when the flow through the RIMS tube is too slow.

That is another "right on the money" observation.

Good on you.

(said quietly in the background)

EDIT - damn I posted it???

 

[clearwaterbrewer]

Never had a scorched brew in 3 years of using HWD elements, but then I've never brewed with pumpkin. Contrary to P-J's opinion, as long as there's convective currents carrying the heat away, the surface temp of the element isn't much above boiling. Many of us use nylon bags for our hops that touch the element for an hour or more and they don't melt.

So how does one weld steel underwater? Add heat faster than the water can take it away...

So how does Milk Scorch in a pan on medium or low heat on a stove? Heat is still added faster than the liquid can take it away..


I am 100% with P-J on this... Spend the money on a lower watt density element, not potentially on another wasted batch of beer. (Or even waste the time worrying about it!)

 

[P-J]

---
I am 100% with P-J on this... Spend the money on a lower watt density element, not potentially on another wasted batch of beer. (Or even waste the time worrying about it!)

Thank You.!

P-J

 

[jlachesk]

Yea, I'm not sure there are many good alternatives to solving the potential for this outside of a lower watt density density. Maybe augmenting the flow of liquid via recirculation or stirring?

I wonder if there's a way to determine the threshold for this type of occurrence based on the watt density (e.g. can this phenomenon still occur with a LWD? ULWD?). This is particularly interesting if the root cause is related to the amount of particulates or some kind of gelatinization as a result of the pumpkin. Is this something that might be a risk with other adjuncts other than pumpkin?

 

[jkarp]

So how does one weld steel underwater? Add heat faster than the water can take it away...

So how does Milk Scorch in a pan on medium or low heat on a stove? Heat is still added faster than the liquid can take it away..

Right. Localized vaporization allows the heat to rapidly rise. I never said scorching wasn't possible, just that there's a lot of electric brewers out there that haven't experienced it. A LWD element certainly helps but isn't 100% insurance, as seen even here on HBT with pics of elements pulled from improperly run RIMS tubes that look like charcoal briquettes.

Oh, and for the record, the scalding point of milk is 180F. A wee bit lower than the caramelization point of sugar, 340F.

 

[cjp4627]

I would have to agree it was related to the pumpkin at this point. Its a little disappointing I will gave to miss out on the beautiful orange worth that I saw last night when I mashed with the pumpkin!

 

[pickles]

I've never scorched a batch of beer and I have a 4500w HWD element in the bk and about 1500 HWD in my RIMs. I have however, completely fried my RIMs, it had a thick layer of goo on it. It's normally pretty clean after a brew. The culprit was wheat. It gelatinized or something, my guess is the pumpkin. Any chance you had wheat or rye in the grist?

 

[clearwaterbrewer]

I have run 2 batches of 58% wheat hefe through my RIMS and BK with no issues, (4500W, 13" single loop, about 24" of heating length, so I assume HWD).. I need to find a LWD, but I built my rims tube a tad too short for the 4500w double loop that is 13.5" long and has about 45" of heating length, I have a 8" double loop that has about 28" of heating length.

Interestingly, years ago before going electric, I did scorch a direct-gas heat (low flame, *almost* constant stirring) 50+% hefe mash in my BK that left the same black flaky things on the bottom, I salvaged the ashtray tasting beer with Smoked Habanero's and 6 months waiting

I do have a 15" diameter false bottom and run the pump for the full 60 minutes, mash is always clear as beer going into boil kettle. I would like to see your recipe, maybe we can try similar ingredients in our systems...

 

[pickles]

I'll have to get the recipe out of Beersmith. There was an entire thread about wheat and fried elements a few months back, ironically it popped up the week after my incident.

 

[cjp4627]

There was a somewhat small portion of wheat in the brew. Roughly 3%.

 

[pcr150]

I have been brewing with an all electric rig for over 2 years and never have had a scorched batch but have had build up on the kettle and RIMs elements. For the record I started out with an 5500W ULWD element: http://www.plumbingsupply.com/images/water-heater-element-02963.jpg. I had more problems with the ULWD element than the 6000W element I use now but I think it had more to do with fine tuning my brew day than the elements themselves. Here are my observations for what it is worth:

1. After every brew session I need to clean my boil element off. There is always some build up, more with wheat batchs than with others. But what I have learned is if I do not get the sediment off the element it will be 2 times worse on the next batch, and build up even faster on each batch after. I have found I only need to clean my RIMS element after batchs with lots of wheat but my RIMs element is a Stainless Steel cartridge heater so it does not get build up on it as easy.

2. Watch how agressive your boil is. Once you reach boil dial down the element to allow for a nice rolling boil but not a violent one. This avoids the large vapor pocket and will help avoid the element getting to scorching temperatures.

3. I know some people will object to this but, use a hop bag, but try to avoid letting it touch the element. The less particulates that can settle on the element the better. If the element gets a layer of material on it insultating it from the wort it will allow its surface temperatures to get higher. This will scorch whatever is on the element which in turn will give the wort a burnt taste.


That's my 2 cents worth, hope it helps.

 

[cjp4627]

My biggest issue with finding a LWD element is the diameter of my brew kettle. It is only 9" ID. It is a corny keg.

It looks like the LWD element suggested above may JUST fit due to the extra length of the half coupler.

I am using a PID that is not PWM capable. This means that I can set a duty cycle but it turns the element completely off for a period of time. I can adjust the overall time of each cycle but I run the risk of harming the internal relay if I switch it too often. Any recommendations for this? It is an Automation Direct PID. Model #: SOLO-4848-RR.

 

[Psych]

And not to hijack either, but what's the best way to clean a gunked up element?

I have a 4500watt LWD element, it came with a stainless steel look but that's now turned black after some 10 batches and in places I can see copper showing, but overall it's a crusty black mess.

I've tried soaking in 'the pink stuff' overnight, that didn't loosen much up, I've obviously tried scrubbing with a sponge, even steel wool, and the crusty bits don't want to come off. My element flakes black stuff after brews lately so I'm leary about using it without cleaning it off.

I presume I can't sand it or anything...oxyclean? Belt sander?

 

[pcr150]

I just soak in Oxyclean or PBW for 15-20 minutes and then use a 3M Scotch-Brite pad.

 

[pickles]

I recirc with hot homemade PBW do about 20 min then lightly hit it with a scrub brush. I think the key is to not let things go a few brews, but instead get the light film each time when your done brewing.

 

[Shockerengr]

And not to hijack either, but what's the best way to clean a gunked up element?

I have a 4500watt LWD element, it came with a stainless steel look but that's now turned black after some 10 batches and in places I can see copper showing, but overall it's a crusty black mess.

I've tried soaking in 'the pink stuff' overnight, that didn't loosen much up, I've obviously tried scrubbing with a sponge, even steel wool, and the crusty bits don't want to come off. My element flakes black stuff after brews lately so I'm leary about using it without cleaning it off.

I presume I can't sand it or anything...oxyclean? Belt sander?

sounds like it was chromed...and the chrome has come off.

 

[btgold29]

Yea, I'm not sure there are many good alternatives to solving the potential for this outside of a lower watt density density. Maybe augmenting the flow of liquid via recirculation or stirring?

I wonder if there's a way to determine the threshold for this type of occurrence based on the watt density (e.g. can this phenomenon still occur with a LWD? ULWD?). This is particularly interesting if the root cause is related to the amount of particulates or some kind of gelatinization as a result of the pumpkin. Is this something that might be a risk with other adjuncts other than pumpkin?

jlachesk, Not to bring to life an ancient thread but last night I experienced the same issue as the OP with my pumpkin beer. And was hoping to resolve this issue, and provide some more info. And to be clear. we added the 4 cans of pumpkin to the kettle at about 180 degrees when it was warming up to a boil.

I have a 12 gallon all electric rims set up that ive been using flawlessly for 50 plus batches. I have a 3500 watt LWD (low watt density) element in my BK and again, its been awesome... Last night when we added the canned pumpkin to the boil we had the same problem as the OP. This awful smell. I decided to rack it, and pitch yeast as usual with hopes that the smell wont show its face in the final product. The smell was so bad it over powered the spices and pumpkin. Quite disappointing especially because it was a 12 gallon batch

There was a crusty black coating that was stuck to the element after i drained the kettle that flaked off just like the OP said. I also noticed that the crusty material insulated the element which caused it to over heat and anneal the material. The element is now very malleable and most likely junk.

I will be sure to update this post with a result of the final beer in a few weeks. Any input or suggestion would be great. Has any one else experienced this?

 

[BrothOfVigor]

I would guess all that pumpkin goop just sank to the bottom of your kettle and started getting baked around the element. Maybe putting the purée in nylon bags hung from the side of the kettle would prevent that, but you would have to deal with less thorough mixing of pumpkin awesomeness.

I haven't done a fruit or veg beer on an electric setup, but I've done several on the stove. I would always just boil the fruit in a separate pot for an hour or so and then strain the liquid and add it to the boil. I've also mashed with sweet yams. Unsurprisingly it got kind of stuck.

 

[thughes]

I too have had the black flakey stuff burn on the element. It was an LWD element and the grist was mix of wheat and Pils. Sadly, that smell doesn't go away but instead manifests itself as a taste in the final product that is very similar to licking an ashtray. Didn't catch the grungy element until two batches later, all 3 ended up being dumpers. Replaced the element with the standard ULWD ripple element and the problem has never resurfaced. A simple wipe with a green scrubby pad after every session keeps the element looking brand new.

Good luck with your toasty batch.