Saison Conditioning Question

[Hastur]

So after getting a few decent batches done, I wanted to try and brew a Saison. After extensive googling I was unable to find an answer to how long a Saison should condition for; getting answers that ranged from two weeks to six months. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance!

 

[MalFet]

Do you mean in primary or in the bottle? In any case, I'd stay away from fixed time tables. Saison yeasts are notoriously slow fermenters; they hit their first 75% of attenuation quickly and then trickly out the last 15-20%. Count on anything from three weeks to three months, depending on your yeast management. Hydrometer readings and good temp control are key here. As far as time in the bottle, once you've carbed and settled you are ready. That typically takes about three weeks for me, but your results may vary.

 

[Homebrewtastic]

Using the typical yeast strains for a saison yes you will see that your yeast sputter out at about 1.020. Which is why I prefer Wyeast 3711 French Saison. It's a beast and will fully attenuate (with good pitching rates) inside of 8 days.

 

[MalFet]

Using the typical yeast strains for a saison yes you will see that your yeast sputter out at about 1.020. Which is why I prefer Wyeast 3711 French Saison. It's a beast and will fully attenuate (with good pitching rates) inside of 8 days.

Yep, 3711 is easier to use, but I prefer the flavor profile of 3724. 3711 just tastes kind of sweet and bland to me, though perhaps I didn't give it a fair shot. Once you figure out the pitching rates and temperature profile for your system, 3724 is a phenomenal yeast. Beautiful esters/phenols and style appropriate attenuation.

 

[smizak]

Yep, 3711 is easier to use, but I prefer the flavor profile of 3724. 3711 just tastes kind of sweet and bland to me, though perhaps I didn't give it a fair shot. Once you figure out the pitching rates and temperature profile for your system, 3724 is a phenomenal yeast. Beautiful esters/phenols and style appropriate attenuation.

Pitch a big starter of 3724 and half a smack pack of 3711. I did this and the 3724 took off like mad, ground to a screeching halt @ 1.030, then the 3711 brought it down to 1.004.

To the OP, FWIW, a Saison I brewed last May aged better than any beer I've ever brewed. It just scored a 44 at Homebrewalley 5 in NYC, not bad for being almost 10 months old. I also depends on how well you store it I guess, mine was in a 33F fridge the entire time.

 

[MalFet]

Pitch a big starter of 3724 and half a smack pack of 3711. I did this and the 3724 took off like mad, ground to a screeching halt @ 1.030, then the 3711 brought it down to 1.004.

Yep, that might work. For the record, I don't have any problems with getting 3724 to attenuate properly. It takes about 2-3 weeks usually, but with a good pitch and a 68º pitch ramped up gradually I've been hitting 95% attenuation every time.

 

[starrfish]

I've love 3711, I've found the warmer fermentation temps really bring up a spicy flavor, I've gone as warm as 80° room temp... that was a great batch.

 

[motobrewer]

malfet, what's the temp profile if you don't mind me asking? pitch at 68F, then ramp up to where? how long?

thanks.

 

[MalFet]

malfet, what's the temp profile if you don't mind me asking? pitch at 68F, then ramp up to where? how long?

thanks.

Pitch a proper amount of healthy yeast at 68, let it sit there until active fermentation starts to slow, then rise 2 degrees per day up to about 84. Then I keep it at 84 for as long as I need to. It has worked for me, but I wouldn't be surprised if other systems need other numbers.

I know the conventional wisdom is to pitch higher, but I think that might be based on some faulty assumptions about the relationship between pitching temperature, yeast growth, and ester production. Soon as I started pitching cooler, any problems I had with 3724 went away, and the flavor profile significantly improved. Usual caveats off course, this is all subjective and anecdotal; the yeast population dynamics stuff in particular is still pretty poorly understood, most of all by me.

 

[Hastur]

Thanks for the advice! I meant time in the bottles to really bring out the good flavors, but the fermentation times help too. I'll probably end up leaving it in the primary at least three weeks in the bottles another month using the 3711 yeast.

 

[Homebrewtastic]

I love the 3711. When you hit the right temps you get some awesome spiciness out of it. It's not as fruity as the 3724, but that's how I personally prefer it. Plus the mouthfeel it gives is awesome and a half.

 

[MBasile]

I love the 3711. When you hit the right temps you get some awesome spiciness out of it. It's not as fruity as the 3724, but that's how I personally prefer it. Plus the mouthfeel it gives is awesome and a half.

"Awesome and a half" I like that!!

In regards to the OP's question, are you guys implying that 3 weeks (or 4 or 5 or 20 weeks) in primary and then carb and it is good to go? So theoretically you guys are drinking it 5 weeks after brewing?

 

[BryanJ]

I just bottled up a batch with 3724 belgian saison yeast, i left it in primary for 6 weeks since there was still a layer of krausen after a month. There are to many factors to put a definite time table on your beer. Just keep sampling until you're happy with the flavor then give it more time then bottle it up.

 

[Homercidal]

Hard to nail down a specific timetable since so many people ferment their Saison differently with different yeast. I don't think Saison was meant to be aged really long. But if you don't choose yeast and temps carefully, many of the yeasts will take their time finishing off.

I'd really like to try that blend of yeasts next time. I'd say once you get to the point of bottling, it shouldn't take more than 6 weeks to have a mature beer. A Saison is not a real high OG beer.

Just try and make it as dry as possible and ferment warm. Very warm.

 

[MBasile]

Thanks guys! I wasn't really concerned with fermenting time since fermentation ends when it ends, more so the conditioning (age it like a blonde? age it like an imperial stout?) It makes sense given the birth of the style to drink it fairly young though! I'll be trying out one of these this summer for sure!

 

[Homebrewtastic]

"Awesome and a half" I like that!!

In regards to the OP's question, are you guys implying that 3 weeks (or 4 or 5 or 20 weeks) in primary and then carb and it is good to go? So theoretically you guys are drinking it 5 weeks after brewing?

I prefer three to four weeks in the bottle for conditioning. The batch I'm drinking now (literally I'm drinking one as I'm typing this) only spent two weeks before I fermented it. I like my saisons cloudly. I like to swirl up the yeast in the bottle. So I never really wait for the yeast to settle out.

 

[Homebrewtastic]

I don't think Saison was meant to be aged really long.

You couldn't be more wrong. Saisons (traditionally) were brewed early in the winter to be served throughout the summer.

 

[MBasile]

You couldn't be more wrong. Saisons (traditionally) were brewed early in the winter to be served throughout the summer.

Hmm, that makes more sense. I was thinking that they were brewed to be turned over quickly while working, but now thinking back I realize that may be off. IIRC, they would make the farmhouse styles when there was nothing to harvest.

But if they were brewed in the winter, why does the yeast like such warm temps?

 

[starrfish]

3711 ferment hot in the upper 80's. let it room temp crash... mmm winey musty. highly alcohol.... get sloppy with 3711.

 

[msa8967]

Has anyone used Wyeast 3725 to ferment a saison? I saw this yeast in the last NB catalogue and decided to order it for my try a saison.

 

[MalFet]

You couldn't be more wrong. Saisons (traditionally) were brewed early in the winter to be served throughout the summer.

If you want to get nitpicky, there was a lot more variation than that. Many saisons were brewed as late as March and were drunk as early as May. Even the BJCP style guide says that saisons were traditionally brewed "at the end of the cool season". Saison is a "biere de garde", so certainly many were aged longer than that, but at the point in history when saisons were very common anything older than a few weeks was relatively "old".

 

[Homebrewtastic]

But if they were brewed in the winter, why does the yeast like such warm temps?

I think that's kind of how we've come to think of saisons here in the USA. Traditional saisons aren't really much like what's brewed here in the US. In fact originally they weren't necessarily one definitive style. Moreover they were typically low alcohol, refreshing pale ales that were meant to be drunk during the summer, but had a lot of variances from place to place.

A saison was given to farm hands instead of water because the water in the region wasn't always potable. So it had to be refreshing. It also had to be low alcohol so no one got too snockered to work.

Todays saisons typically follow suit after Saison Dupont. Which are higher in alcohol, and that particular yeast strain does better at a warmer temperature.

 

[starrfish]

I like 3711 ferment hot.... nice pepper and herb... almost red whiney... nice for a hot summer high alcohol drink

 

[Jogurt]

Just adding my thoughts to this old thread. I was googling how people tend to approach saison conditioning.

I have recently bottled my second saison.
I used Danstar Belle Saison in both.

First one was bottled after 2 weeks in primary and then took a gold in saison category 4 months later. (amongst 16 entries, it is this way in this part of the world ) It was as good two months earlier and a month later.

I bottled this second one after 2 weeks also (finished fermenting after 7 days or so). After 1 week in the bottle, I noticed bubblegum and banana flavour, and became concerned. Now, 2 weeks in bottle, these flavours disappeared and the spices and funk came in. Now the beer is exactly as I remember the first one being when it was young. Hopefully it will eventually get to the same tranquil point, that the first one managed.

So my very limited experience with Danstar Belle Saison saisons can be described in this timeline:
done fermenting in 7 days
left in primary for another 7 days, then bottle
1 week in bottle - extremely young, inappropriate flavours
2 weeks in bottle - inappropriate flavours disappear, spices and funk appear. However the beer overall is somewhat alcoholic and sharp. The colour starts to clear.
1 month - the beer somewhat mellows, rounds around the edges
2 months - the beer reaches its prime, is crystal clear (if poured properly)
5 months - the last bottle drank, still in its prime

I stored it at room temperature and fermented a bit higher (close to radiator). Unfortunately I do not have the opportunity to control it more precisely yet.

I would be interested in reading more experience with conditioning saisons

 

[Chops1867]

I'll be brewing my first Saison soon. I have some WLP566 that needs to be used.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[TheCanisDirus]

I think that's kind of how we've come to think of saisons here in the USA. Traditional saisons aren't really much like what's brewed here in the US. In fact originally they weren't necessarily one definitive style. Moreover they were typically low alcohol, refreshing pale ales that were meant to be drunk during the summer, but had a lot of variances from place to place.

A saison was given to farm hands instead of water because the water in the region wasn't always potable. So it had to be refreshing. It also had to be low alcohol so no one got too snockered to work.

Todays saisons typically follow suit after Saison Dupont. Which are higher in alcohol, and that particular yeast strain does better at a warmer temperature.

This. They, for the most part, were just cobbled together beers from whatever each farm had on hand to be used as Gatorade for the hands.

Id imagine the variation was pretty large far to farm. All those old mash paddles and equipment that each family passed down from generation to generation harbored unique combinations of yeasties bugs that would make one farm's Saison potentially much different than the neighbor's who was only a mile down the lane.