Mark yeah
Active Member
I'll be keg conditioning this beer, so bottle bombs won't be an issue. The primary ferment was pretty fast though, being mostly done in 5 days.
Safbrew WB-06 for a Belgian Golden Strong ale
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Mark yeah
Active Member
Interesting article, it may dry out even further during carbonationI didn't realise WB-06 was a diastaticus
Decided I better google it and found quite an interesting article SafAle™ WB-06: Give the character you want to your wheat beer styles (nothing about Belgian Strong though)
They lost their credibility and my interest when they tried to convince me that it is possible to brew a German wheat beer with the diastatic wb06.
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
That is an overt blasphemy, though it's not completely a NB's fault.
It's the producer who markets this yeast as a legit WeizenBier strain, recommends it for the style in their brochures and even has hardcoded this dubious statement into the product name, WB. Fermentis are known for strange misleadning marketing sometimes: take S-33 for example, presented as a strain for "Trappist" beers, resulting in a lot of wheeping and gnasting of teeth from those who believed and tried to brew anything Belgiany with it, multiplying the bad rap.
I guess it was somewhere around this post?
Pie11
Member
I think wb means witbier.
Fermentis communication departement has an orrible reputation, even here in France.
It will propose any yeast ad well fitted for quite every style.
Fermentis sells some excellents yests (w34/70, s-189, us-05, k-97, ...) but imho wb-06 is not in this group.
I used several time wb-06 tring a decent wit, and I was never satisfied. When I changed to lallemand wit and FM23Magical garden I quickly found the rignt balance.
I have done a split batch with wit and wb-06, and the difference is remarquable.
The link on Wb-06 usage is very interesting, but those are only standard pratice for any yeast management.
Fermentis communication departement has an orrible reputation, even here in France.
It will propose any yeast ad well fitted for quite every style.
Fermentis sells some excellents yests (w34/70, s-189, us-05, k-97, ...) but imho wb-06 is not in this group.
I used several time wb-06 tring a decent wit, and I was never satisfied. When I changed to lallemand wit and FM23Magical garden I quickly found the rignt balance.
I have done a split batch with wit and wb-06, and the difference is remarquable.
The link on Wb-06 usage is very interesting, but those are only standard pratice for any yeast management.
That's the one! Thank you! This weekend shall be kveik time!
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
I think they mean Weizenbiers in the first place, unfortunately, as they elaborate that further in their brochure where they advertise the strain as the first and only choice for "Weissen" and only after that they mention Blanche and Saison as the styles to ferment with this yeast too.
I wonder why they're doing that. By default, they must know about yeasts, styles and history way more than we do. And still they market a diastatic strain as a "Weizenbier" and an English one as a "Trappist".
VikeMan
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Hmm. They certainly know about yeasts from the perspective of how to turn small amounts of yeast into large amounts of yeast, and getting it into the supply chain in good shape.
Style? Well, I've read enough (IMO) questionable information in various yeast manufacturers' literature, blog posts, packaging, etc. that I'm not even tempted a little bit to believe they know more than the very basics about brewing, including brewing style choices.
History? They know (or should know) where each strain that they propagate came from. But if you mean general brewing history, I see no reason to assume that.
I'll add that a yeast manufacturer who only makes dry yeast, and therefore a limited range of strains, may have an incentive to overstate the range of styles that a strain is suited for.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Commercial necessity - they will have had lots of people asking them for a yeast to brew wits or Trappists, and if they didn't have anything suitable (perhaps they had problems drying them or something) then they offer up the least-bad option they have available - the S-33 as Belgian thing dates to before they had eg Be-256 IIRC. And it's not completely ridiculous as WLP540 (allegedly from Rochefort, who don't use a traditional strain but something they got from the Palm yeastbank in the 1960s) appears to be quite closely related to eg Ringwood.
But WB-06 for wheat/wit beers and S-33 for Belgians are the two notorious examples from Fermentis. That's OK, you can ignore them, there are better options out there.
Surely you will be drinking Asahi.....???
Pie11
Member
Probably if appelled hb-06 is the yeast is addressed mainly for hefeweizen
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I will hopefully have a few of my newest invention, the (hazy?) Cheapskate. It consists of 2/3 wheat flour and 1/3 pilsner malt. Plus sabro hops. I bottled it last weekend and the sample was so extremely delicious, it's unbelievable. I have high hopes for this utterly beer-law-defying beauty of an adjunct ale. Will make a post in the recipe section if this works out as it looks like. I biab and during the bag squeeze, my bag burst (it was a bit ripped before, to be fair), so it's lautering again for me for the time being. It was an extreme brew day.Surely you will be drinking Asahi.....???
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
Nice subject! A joy to discuss.
I'm not a linguist, not a native speaker of German and overall I'm quite a dumb old slug, but I have a linguistical gut feeling that the word "Hefeweizen" as the primary term for the style is rather a specifically American term for the brew that in Germany herself is predominantly called Weizenbier or Weissbier, rather than Hefeweizen - which term is used as well, but way less common than the first two. Herr @Miraculix knows better.
In all European languages I know (and I know quite a few of them - albeit most are not-so-wide spread, and French is missing among them, to my ashamement) the naming of this style generally follows the German pattern: "Wheat Beer" rather than "Yeast Wheat". How this style is called in French, to distinguish it from the Belgian Blanche? Hardly Hefeweizen, I guess?
I mean, I doubt a French producer would name their product "Hefeweizenbier", so it's most probably the English words "Wheat Beer" that they encoded into those ominous W. B. From another side, who knows them, the yeast producers, after the spree of American-themed renamings in Mangrove Jack's product line...
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Although your reasoning seems logically, the most used terms in Germany are actually Hefeweizen, Weizenbier, Weizen, Hefe and Weißbier which all describe a classic German wheat beer. What is never used is the American "weisse" or "weissn" or "weissen", which does not exist in German. There is "Berliner Weisse", but this is something completely different, it is a sour. Another American invention is a "Stein". It is actually a Maßkrug. Stein means stone in German and nobody calls a beer glass a stein. It is called a Maß (which is the unit of 1 litre) or a Maßkrug, which is a Krug (drinking vessel) with 1 Maß in it.
Finally I had the chance to say it, everytime I read German weiss or weissn, something dies a little inside of me.
Thanks for that chance!
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
Great!
So, since Fermentis use exactly "Weissen" in their booklet as the sole name for the style, we might deduce they speak American English there, so any continental linguistic expertise is redundant in the case of their yeast nomenclature!
So, since Fermentis use exactly "Weissen" in their booklet as the sole name for the style, we might deduce they speak American English there, so any continental linguistic expertise is redundant in the case of their yeast nomenclature!
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CleanEmUpIves
Well-Known Member
Forgive me, my English and German is a little rusty. I mostly use heiroglyphs.
How would one pronounce Weißbier in English? The symbol of interest being ß.
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
I'm only 1/4 part German and my English and German are pretty rusty too, and I don't know a single hieroglyph (I do read and write the Arabic script, does that count?) but I just can't prevent myself from bragging my knowledge that the Eszet letter (ß) is pronounced like S.
I'm open to be corrected if I'm wrong.
UPD:
Sorry, I recalled, I know a single hieroglyph.
It's "茶", that means "Tea".
I'm open to be corrected if I'm wrong.
UPD:
Sorry, I recalled, I know a single hieroglyph.
It's "茶", that means "Tea".
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CleanEmUpIves
Well-Known Member
I'm not an expert but not sure that "weisse" or "weissn" or "weissen" is used alone in English either and if the ß is S then wouldn't the meanings be equivalent?
In hieroglyphs it's pretty simple just
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
There's a difference which Miraculix has referenced above. However similar meanings both names might bear, in German they mean different styles: Weissbier aka Weizenbier aka Hefeweizen is the "common" top-fermented German Wheat Beer while Weisse is a rare regional sour ultralight wheat beer from Berlin.
Fermentis uses "Weisse" as the official English name for the German Wheat Beer (Weissbier) style in their brochure, which is grossly incorrect, as the diastatic WB-06 stands very far from the yeasts traditionally used both for Weissbier and for Weisse.
Here my German expertise ends, let's wait till Miraculix comes to elucidate the question further.
All this talk about Duvel reminded me that it has been a while since I tried one. It sure is a light colored and pretty beer! Could this be made with WB-06? Maybe. It is not a yeast dominated beer like many Belgians. I get classic noble hop character with a solid bitterness up front, with some bready pilsner malt character and I have to search a little to get yeast character. There is a little bit of fruity aroma and just a touch of phenolic character. Way too crushable for a 8.5% beer!
@Mark yeah: I am curious how your version will compare!
@Mark yeah: I am curious how your version will compare!
Mark yeah
Active Member
Me too! Unfortunately, it'll be a while as I'm determined to do this properly and not take any short cuts to give WB-06 a fighting chance.
It'll be oxygen-free and naturally carbonated and conditioned a la the real deal. I've gone from thinking I'd knock out a quick-and-dirty beer to kind of obsessing over it now.
It'll be oxygen-free and naturally carbonated and conditioned a la the real deal. I've gone from thinking I'd knock out a quick-and-dirty beer to kind of obsessing over it now.
Zambezi Special
Well-Known Member
As far as I remember from taking German at school (compulsary) it's a "Ringel S" and can be replaced by "ss".
Necessary as there were no pc's and word processing programms. Just type writers
Other tit-but, but off topic
France and also Germany uses different keyboards.
Azerty for France (and part of Belgium).
Qwertz for Germany if I'm not mistaken
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
Absolutely not mistaken. QWERTZ for German and also for the closest eastern neighbours of German language: Polish, Czech, Slowak, Hungarian, Romanian. I think, for Jugoslavia too, but not so sure.
The real keyboard porn comes when you deal with an old Latvian typewriter: the keyboard layout is ŪGJRMV. It's rarely used now, though.
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That is correct.
That is also correct.
It's more complicated, especially as the German official grammar regarding ß always changes. We got s, we got ss and we got ß, all pronounced mainly the same, except s, which can be pronounced in two ways, which the others cannot. The others are always a "sharp" s, s can be sharp or soft. I think there's only a sharp s in English, so I cannot describe you a soft one. Listen to the wort sand in German and then in English, same spelling, same meaning, different s pronunciation.
Got one, sharp s is like a snake hissing, soft s more like the sound of a bee flying around.
If there's no ß available, it's common to replace it with ss, that is correct.
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
<bragging linguistic knowledge started>
As far as I understand the difference, the "sharp s" sounds like the English s in the word sand [send] and the "soft s" sounds like the English s in the word rose [rouz]. The difference could be very meaningful, like for example, between reisen [raizen] (to travel) against reißen [raisen] (to tear).
Weißbier (=Weissbier) is read like [waisbir], and if it was spelled "Weisbier", without the ß or ss, it should be read like [waizbir] which would sound ridiculous.
</bragging linguistic knowledge finished>
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
Oh no, nothing like a quick-n-dirty beer! It's a very important experiment, that's why the hopes of many here are vested in your brewing project.
It's no joke, to find the proper use for a yeast everyone has tried but noone has been satisfied with the results.
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Sorry, the example doesn't really match.
Rosy, that's the soft s! There is a soft s in the English language after all!
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
That's what happens to them braggers: soonner or later they're humbled! 
Frankly, I don't catch the difference between the s in English rose and rosy, they sound same to me.
I must have an awful pronounciaton then. Good this isn't a voice chat!
Frankly, I don't catch the difference between the s in English rose and rosy, they sound same to me.
I must have an awful pronounciaton then. Good this isn't a voice chat!
This discussion answers a lot of questions. Last spring I decided to do my summer hefeweizen with WB-06, hoping to find a suitable dry yeast rather than making liquid yeast starters. Did a double batch with a neighbor who kegged his and, once FG stabilized, I bottled mine in bombers with a normal amount of priming sugar. Beer was technically OK, but flavor was never right. Neighbor entered some in a local competition and judges commented that it didn't taste like a weissbier. In the meantime, my bombers slowly became bottle bombs and eventually all were opened and dumped. Lesson learned ... the 2023 version will return to a starter of WY3068.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Lallemand Munich Classic (not the old simple "Munich", now rebranded as their wit yeast to avoid confusion) is a dry version of 3068 that's generally regarded as one of the better dry equivalents of a liquid yeast.
Finally an explanation where this dubious "lallemand witt" is coming from that everybody talks about, which I've never heard nor seen before...
Protos
Die Schwarzbier Polizei
That's the reason I still hesitate to try Lalbrew "Witbier" for a Wit.
Yesterday it was a Munich, now it is a Wit... And tomorrow, a "Northern Coast IPA"?
It seems they themselves aren't too sure which kind of yeast it is.
There's always something fishy about a radical change of identity.
Yesterday it was a Munich, now it is a Wit... And tomorrow, a "Northern Coast IPA"?
It seems they themselves aren't too sure which kind of yeast it is.
There's always something fishy about a radical change of identity.
Mark yeah
Active Member
There is something Pilsner-like about Duvel, it's crisp and ridiculously drinkable. It's quite different to some of the better known tripels like Westmalle and Chimay White, definitely leaner and sharper. An outstanding beer!
Pie11
Member
Lallemand munich classic is a very good yeast for hefeweizen. An more complex alternative is breed a hefeweizen bottle. This stile is not filtered and normally are not pastorised (at least in europe).
Lallemand wit is a decent witbier yeast, but is not fitted for hefeweizen.
Fermentis wb-06 is far from great for witbier, and is not fitted at all for hefeweizen.
Always on dry yeast for european wheat beers, k97 ans nottingham are very good for french biere blanche (that use a clean fermentation profile and has an hint of sweetness).
be-134 is well fitted for spelt or wheat biere de saison, where m29 or belle saison are far from decent.
All assertions are only my personal opinion on my personal experience.
Lallemand wit is a decent witbier yeast, but is not fitted for hefeweizen.
Fermentis wb-06 is far from great for witbier, and is not fitted at all for hefeweizen.
Always on dry yeast for european wheat beers, k97 ans nottingham are very good for french biere blanche (that use a clean fermentation profile and has an hint of sweetness).
be-134 is well fitted for spelt or wheat biere de saison, where m29 or belle saison are far from decent.
All assertions are only my personal opinion on my personal experience.
The problem with the european beers is, a lot of breweries bottle with a different yeast because their fermentation yeast is not powdery enough, so you get a different yeast from bottle propagation. The good thing is, Schneider seems to be using the same yeast through the whole process (and that's the one you want)
.
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Pie11
Member
wit and hefeweizen are "juicy" stiles and historical brewery often uses only one yeast, that is the signature of the brewery.
Cask conditioning yeast gerally don't prolifeate on maltotriose filled petri dish.
Sta1+ yeast often proliferate very well on lin's agar.
It's quite easy to isolate a dry yeast from the cask conditionner, expcially sta1+
Cask conditioning yeast gerally don't prolifeate on maltotriose filled petri dish.
Sta1+ yeast often proliferate very well on lin's agar.
It's quite easy to isolate a dry yeast from the cask conditionner, expcially sta1+
Mark yeah
Active Member
So it's been 2 (of 3) weeks lagering, and I've had a thought. A direct comparison to Duvel might not be entirely fair for many reasons, so I've decided to brew another identical beer with WLP-570. I will include a bottle of Duvel in the tasting comparisons as a kind of control, but I expect my two to be somewhat different to the commercial version. I'm REALLY curious to see how WB-06 stacks up against WLP-570, and this is the only way to do it.
I've obtained the yeast and will be brewing this weekend, stay tuned for updates!
I've obtained the yeast and will be brewing this weekend, stay tuned for updates!
Mark yeah
Active Member
Successfully brewed the clone yesterday, despite having caught COVID and feeling like a thousand angry wasps are stinging the back of my throat!
It hit all the right numbers, and took off like a rocket after making a vitality starter. The aroma is slightly fruity with bubblegum, not a lot of banana at this stage. I'll be ramping up the temp over the next few days so it will be interesting to see how the ferment compares to WB-06, which didn't stall or hiccup at all and powered through very consistently to its FG.
It hit all the right numbers, and took off like a rocket after making a vitality starter. The aroma is slightly fruity with bubblegum, not a lot of banana at this stage. I'll be ramping up the temp over the next few days so it will be interesting to see how the ferment compares to WB-06, which didn't stall or hiccup at all and powered through very consistently to its FG.
Mark yeah
Active Member
The WB-06 batch has finished lagering, been filtered into a keg, and warmed to mid 20s Celsius. I collected the yeast from this ferment, cleaned it up a bit and made a small (250ml) dextrose starter to make sure it was OK for re-pitching. After an hour it was nicely active, so I pressure transferred it to the keg and added the rest of the dextrose required for 4 vols by the same method. Now I let it carb for a couple of weeks!
Below is a photo of the yeast starter and the dextrose, ready to be transferred to the keg.
Below is a photo of the yeast starter and the dextrose, ready to be transferred to the keg.
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Mark yeah
Active Member
The WLP-570 has finished fermenting, so I've put it in the fridge for its 3 week lager.
WB-06 has been at 25C in the keg for over a week now, I'll probably give it another week or two before conditioning. My biggest concern is it not carbonating and leaving a sickly mess of a beer. However the two control bottles have firmed up nicely, so I'm fairly confident it's all going to plan.
WB-06 has been at 25C in the keg for over a week now, I'll probably give it another week or two before conditioning. My biggest concern is it not carbonating and leaving a sickly mess of a beer. However the two control bottles have firmed up nicely, so I'm fairly confident it's all going to plan.
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