Russian River Brewing Sucks

[Dhruv6911]

I somewhat agree with the OP, regardless if his intention was to troll. Craft breweries for the most part try to steer those mainstream drinkers towards the 'better' side of beer, and one of the factors consumers have to deal with is a higher price point, fine. But when profit becomes the intention, it takes away the 'craft' in craftbeers IMO. I've had many of RR beers, will i stop purchasing them? No... but i will be more inclined to drink others before RR.

 

[Dhruv6911]

You guys buy beer? Why?

Because some beers are better bought... Pliny the Elder/Younger ring a bell? All clones come close, but are not the same...

 

[Jsuds]

And that's why I brew.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

But when profit becomes the intention, it takes away the 'craft' in craftbeers IMO.

Really? You think anyone shells out a couple hundred grand to get a brewery off the ground and profit isn't the intention?

 

[pdxal]

OP said: "But guess what...The jerks don't remove stone from the lines...They get cleaned but never changed...The gas regulator is poorly calibrated and the beer tastes inferior. Does a craft brewer allow his product to be dispensed without caring?"


I know the taste of beer from dirty lines, but how does one know there is stone in the lines, and that the gas regulator is poorly calibrated?

Seems like trolling.
-visiting Russian River for the first time in a couple of weeks.

 

[Dhruv6911]

Really? You think anyone shells out a couple hundred grand to get a brewery off the ground and profit isn't the intention?

Hah...are you denying the fact that they make ten-fold profit on each bottle? These guys are not hurting... believe that. If they were looking to pay off their "hundred grand" debt, they'd open up their limited export list and sell kegs to more stores... there are 50-100 people lines there quite often...

BTW it seems like you're not familiar with russian river... it's quite a way from being a up and coming brewery, it's well established with a cult-like following within its city and even neighboring states. There are people who drive excess of 500 miles to taste pliny the elder/younger, both of which being world-class brews.

 

[gr8shandini]

Hah...are you denying the fact that they make ten-fold profit on each bottle? These guys are not hurting... believe that. If they were looking to pay off their "hundred grand" debt, they'd open up their limited export list and sell kegs to more stores... there are 50-100 people lines there quite often...

BTW it seems like you're not familiar with russian river... it's quite a way from being a up and coming brewery, it's well established with a cult-like following within its city and even neighboring states. There are people who drive excess of 500 miles to taste pliny the elder/younger, both of which being world-class brews.

I'll readily deny that they make a 10 fold profit on their bottles. I've been looking into going pro for a while now and the only way to make that kind of profit is to sell for 5 bucks a pint in your own brewpub.

"Craft" does not mean "charity." Business pressures always enter into it. If you hired a roofer that found an alternative shingle supplier that reduced his cost by 10%, but he provided you the same quality roof that the previous guy got, would you ***** and moan about your roofer "selling out"? The only thing that's important in the transaction is: did you get what you paid for?

I look at it this way, if Mario Batali had just served me the best meal of my life, I wouldn't give a damn if he used Smithfield pork from the A&P or $100/lb Iberian ham. I haven't had the opportunity to sample anything from RR, but if it's as good as folks say, I'd gladly pay $15 for a 750ml, regardless of where they got their ingredients or how much they paid for them. Hell, we should count ourselves lucky since a world-class bottle of wine would cost many times that.

 

[Dunerunner]

I know the taste of beer from dirty lines, but how does one know there is stone in the lines, and that the gas regulator is poorly calibrated?


-visiting Russian River for the first time in a couple of weeks.

Have a good time and be sure to try the Row 2, Hill 56 IPA! Also I recommend the Omni Pizza!!

P.S. Find a place selling Moonlight Brewing's Death and Taxes while you're in Santa Rosa.

Note to the OP:

When you can brew had have available 9 interesting domestic craft styles and 10 Belgian styles including sours that are barrel fermented at your Nano, let us know so we can all ***** about the inconsistancy and high price of your beer!

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

Hah...are you denying the fact that they make ten-fold profit on each bottle? These guys are not hurting... believe that. If they were looking to pay off their "hundred grand" debt, they'd open up their limited export list and sell kegs to more stores... there are 50-100 people lines there quite often...

Ten-fold? Questionable. But I'll stipulate they're making good profit on each bottle. They have an excellent product and ridiculous demand. They *should* be making good profit. I've never bought a RR beer that I've been disappointed with the value for my dollar.

BTW it seems like you're not familiar with russian river... it's quite a way from being a up and coming brewery, it's well established with a cult-like following within its city and even neighboring states. There are people who drive excess of 500 miles to taste pliny the elder/younger, both of which being world-class brews.

I'm plenty familiar with RR.

 

[MrFinstad]

This guy makes a decent point but his attitude sucks. GMO'S are bad for the same reason macro brew is bad, quality takes a backseat to profitability.

I think theres a few things he misses: beer is not the sum of its ingredients. It's also process and craftmanship. I'm fine with RR charging more because Vinnie make's some amazing beer. When he stops making amazing beer, let's grab some torches and mob out to Santa Rosa.

Also, if you're going to lump RR in with the likes of Stone and Dogfish head, you're only doing so based on quality, not based on quality or environmental impact. RR is small beans compared to those enchiladas.

So I get it; you're upset because some damn good beer got more expensive. Welcome to the beer business. If you want to change it, do something about. Vinnie doesn't seem like some evil beer monger so why not try emailing him. Last I checked, they were still answering their emails. And the organic nano revolution isn't going to happen by itself. You have to educate and inspire people, not just piss them off. I look forward to drinking you super local organic RR clones now that you'll be saving so much money boycotting their beer.

 

[944play]

Find a place selling Moonlight Brewing's Death and Taxes while you're in Santa Rosa.

Flavor is right around the corner on Courthouse Square and the only beers they serve are Moonlight, usually 5-6 of them! Get the cheese plate and warm olives while you're there, too.

 

[SPLASTiK]

To the best of my knowledge Cargill's malts aren't GMO.

This.

I attended a a couple lectures last year on the barley harvest and types of malt and I can't remember if it was Director of Ops or GM at Briess or Great Western (both did lectures) but someone asked about GMOs and they said that nobody produces malting grade GMO barley and the demand isn't really there as the brewing industry seems very wary about the idea.

 

[SwampassJ]

The OP reminds me of when I was a teenager and used to get pissed when I thought a band sold out.

Now it's gone to the next level. "Oh you probably never heard of them." And then when you have heard of them they feel upset that they aren't the only ones to know about them.

 

[passedpawn]

Flavor is right around the corner on Courthouse Square and the only beers they serve are Moonlight, usually 5-6 of them! Get the cheese plate and warm olives while you're there, too.

Will check that out in my July visit.

 

[govner1]

I'll be in the area next month and am now motivated to buy and enjoy even more brew from Russian River!!

 

[Qhrumphf]

I somewhat agree with the OP, regardless if his intention was to troll. Craft breweries for the most part try to steer those mainstream drinkers towards the 'better' side of beer, and one of the factors consumers have to deal with is a higher price point, fine. But when profit becomes the intention, it takes away the 'craft' in craftbeers IMO. I've had many of RR beers, will i stop purchasing them? No... but i will be more inclined to drink others before RR.

Really? You think anyone shells out a couple hundred grand to get a brewery off the ground and profit isn't the intention?

I actually agree with him. As far as I'm concerned, anyone with half a brain and one eye can see the economics of the brewing world are skewed, and anyone who gets into the brewing game strictly to make money is delusional if not flat out stupid. I know I'd never work the necessary kind of hours and put myself that deep in debt if I weren't really passionate about what I was doing. Plenty of easier ways to make money.

That said, even if I agree that the "craft" comes (and should come) before profit, if you don't remain profitable, you. will. close. And that's the end of the story regardless of whatever your intentions are.

 

[wailingguitar]

Hah...are you denying the fact that they make ten-fold profit on each bottle? ...

ABSOLUTELY! The profit margins on packaged beer are RAZOR thin! I don't even know of another industry that has such low margins, it's insane. The margins are very low on kegged beer too. If a brewery has to sell through a distributor, they make (on average) about $20/ keg. That's not much and you have to sell A LOT of beer to make a real profit. I haven't looked into the pricing for glass, labels, etc. lately, but by the time you have payed out all of those, plus labor, you're down to a per bottle profit that can be measured in pennies.

If a packaging brewpub makes it, you can bet they are relying on over the counter sales to make their money and support any other endeavor.

 

[MyNameIsPaul]

Maybe the OP's SWMBO is hiding his stuff, so he needed to vent a little?

 

[shoreman]

wow people really jumped on this guy - I realize he may be just venting but I can agree with the premise on some level.

It really sucks when you support a little guy for a long time (in anything, music, art, etc) in your neighborhood and they make it bigtime and forget about what got them there - I think that's what OP is trying to get across.

No matter what the price is compared to your area it still jumped 30% or so and you get a smaller amount - that's lame. It's happening in most industries though - more money for less.

I would just stop supporting that brewery and find another smaller guy that's making great beer with the top tier ingredients at your price and forget about RR.

I've had some of Vinnie's beers and they are well made but really not worth the price for me.

 

[blakelyc]

The usage of terms like "liberal" and "socialist" in this thread is really terrible. OP seems to have an opinion about GMO crops, and I can support that. Some people seem to think that genetically modifying something somehow gets you something for free: "more per acre" or "more pest resistance". Some geek somewhere just uses his magic want to alter the genetic structure of something and then poof, better! Wrong. Not only are you absolutely, quantifiably, producing a different product, but you are also ignorant of the environmental impact of growing more foods per acre.

It is entirely possible to be "conservative" and support the free market, while having an opinion about GMO food.

BTW, I am a Ph.D. Chemical Engineer from the middle of the country who has participated in the creation of some of these abominations, so don't start in on me like I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[ktblunden]

I want to see proof they use GMO grains. It's been flippantly mentioned throughout this thread and I have yet to see someone post a link that unequivocally states that Cargill's malts are GMO. Until that happens, half of this guy's argument is null and should be ignored by everyone.

As far as price, deal with it or go somewhere else. It's also important to note that when a brewery is small (less equipment, less employees) it's easier to keep prices lower than when they expand (more equipment, more employees). As overhead increases, prices increase as well just to maintain the same level of profits per product sold. As has been stated numerous times in this thread, the draft prices are still below craft market average. The belgian and sour bottle prices have increased quite a bit, but something like half the footprint of the brewpub is taken up by aging casks. The longer you have to sit on your product before you can sell it the more expensive the end result will be. Again, if you don't like it don't buy it, but don't go around flinging accusations of lowering quality when you have zero proof to back it up.

 

[passedpawn]

The usage of terms like "liberal" and "socialist" in this thread is really terrible.

Pricing is driven by the market in a free market economy like ours. If the demand is high, the price should be increased. That's how our economy works.

In a socialist economy, the price is fixed by the cost to produce it and there is no incentive to increase it. It's a communal effort where profit is not the goal.

The OP indicated that the ingredients are cheap so the price should not increase.

 

[Old-Ned]

The usage of terms like "liberal" and "socialist" in this thread is really terrible.

Ummm...you were the first to use the term "liberal."

 

[HopKeller]

Like it or not, the explosion of the craft-beer industry is evidence that a free-market system can work beautifully. 30 years ago there were something like a half-dozen breweries in the US- there will be over 2000 by the end of the year.
Edit: Also, if not for BMC, we would not have access to the craft-brew we love so dearly. Profit margins on BMC are much higher than craft. A friend of mine who owns a bottle shop told me his BMC sales pay the bills, which allows him to carry a wide selection of great beer.

 

[Paramecium]

So I get it; you're upset because some damn good beer got more expensive. Welcome to the beer business. If you want to change it, do something about. Vinnie doesn't seem like some evil beer monger so why not try emailing him. Last I checked, they were still answering their emails. A

Absolutely. I have had the opportunity to talk to Vinnie and he has always been very approachable and will take the time to answer your questions. Hell last year at the Mammoth Blues and Brews Vinnie was pouring the beers at the RR table. I talked with him for about 10 minutes regarding different aspects of his brewing, process, hops, barrel selection for sours etc... He was very nice and had no problem answering any questions myself or some others had.

Also as others have said, taking up a large portion of your brew floor with barrels that age for a year to 18 months is costly. If you think the sour and Belgian prices are that bad I suggest you look at the rest of the sours available and compare prices. Anything aged that long will carry a premium price due to the time and space invested in the product.

RR beers are great, I won't go all fanboy and claim that they are the best in the world but having had a large number of them I can say that I have yet to come across one that I didn't like. If you really feel that they are overpriced then by all means pass them by and get something else. I'm sure someone else would be happy to come along and pick up the beer you didn't want.

 

[HopSong]

Is it PRICE or GMO? Price seems just fine. I also go there about once a month. PTE is great as a once-in-a-while hop bomb.. and the price is just fine with me.

However, GMO??? How do you prove that? Genetically Modified? Pesticides possibly, fertilizer more probable.. but, GMO?? Prove it. Sounds like one of our local eco nuts starting a rumor. Even if it is GMO.. I'd still drink it.

Heck, I can't prove the grains I use are or are not GMO... dang, I'm running blind.. I hate that.

 

[BrewKnurd]

It really sucks when you support a little guy for a long time (in anything, music, art, etc) in your neighborhood and they make it bigtime and forget about what got them there - I think that's what OP is trying to get across.

The only problem is that this whole argument is based on the assumption that "the little guy" has "forgotten what got them there." Its pretty pompous to assume that you know the motivations of a business and just declare that they've forgotten where they came from. Its pretty pompous to pretend that you understand every last cost that the brewer is facing and confidently state that they're just ripping you off as opposed to trying to stay in business, and gosh, maybe make a living.

If people don't think brewers should care about profit, that's fine. But accept that what would come with that is a lot less beer, because you'd only have brewers that could afford to brew as a hobby. As much as it is craft, it is also a living for these people.

 

[malevolent]

Your tears taste better than Russian River beer, and their beer is quite fantastic

 

[RosewaterFoundation]

100% incorrect. Russian River makes amazing beer. You boohoo about being able to easily get their beers, which are still cheap in relation to comparable goods, puhleaseeeeee.

 

[GLWIII]

The price of a pint is all relative. Those of us paying far more than $3.25 for a pint have a hard time sympathizing with the OP. That said, I think it's misplaced to counter his argument by effectively saying 'you're paying a lot less than me so be happy and shut up'. Though I don't necessarily agree the OP's comments I do see his point…which is not that some of us are paying more/less than anyone else. It's that if costs for ingredients is going down why isn't the price of a pint?

As one other poster correctly pointed out it's economics 101 in all its glory. Supply/demand, costs of (non)ingredients, cost of doing business in CA, taxes, insurance, etc. etc. etc. It all adds up to price increases. More goes in to the cost of a pint of beer than just the ingredients. No real mystery here. Now, if the OP can convince more people to take his side then demand will drop, as will the price of a pint. I'm sure RR has altruistic intentions and wants to make great beer, but it means nothing if they are not profitable. Altruism won't pay the bills. To be honest, when the OP said it was $3.25 I couldn't believe it was that low given the demand and that it is CA which ain't exactly the friendliest place to do business.

 

[homebrewdad]

The price of a pint is all relative. Those of us paying far more than $3.25 for a pint have a hard time sympathizing with the OP. That said, I think it's misplaced to counter his argument by effectively saying 'you're paying a lot less than me so be happy and shut up'. Though I don't necessarily agree the OP's comments I do see his point…which is not that some of us are paying more/less than anyone else. It's that if costs for ingredients is going down why isn't the price of a pint?

As one other poster correctly pointed out it's economics 101 in all its glory. Supply/demand, costs of (non)ingredients, cost of doing business in CA, taxes, insurance, etc. etc. etc. It all adds up to price increases. More goes in to the cost of a pint of beer than just the ingredients. No real mystery here. Now, if the OP can convince more people to take his side then demand will drop, as will the price of a pint. I'm sure RR has altruistic intentions and wants to make great beer, but it means nothing if they are not profitable. Altruism won't pay the bills. To be honest, when the OP said it was $3.25 I couldn't believe it was that low given the demand and that it is CA which ain't exactly the friendliest place to do business.

Because demand is sky high for the product, and the company is using that revenue to turn a greater profit. This is capitalism.

If demand were low, a smart company would lower prices whenever possible to satisfy customers. Demand is through the roof; this is not necessary.

Do note that just because grain prices may be lower does not mean there is less overhead. fuel prices, energy prices, insurance prices have ALL gone up noticeably in the last year.

Also note that $3.25 would be cheap here in Alabama - and a dollar goes much farther here thanin California. $3.25 is an inexpensive price for BMC here. There are zero craft beers available at that price point.

 

[brewit2it]

I am only a short drive from RR, as I live in East Bay. I moved to CA about 9 months ago fro WI, and just having the privilege of being able to go to the store or drive to the brew pub and get RR beers is great.

So far as the price: If you don't like it, no one is making you buy it. Instead of ranting about it on a forum that has a lot of respect for both the brewery and the brewer, why not just simply forego purchasing RR beers? More for all of us that have absolutely no problem paying a fair price for an incredibly well made beer. In fact, I can't think of a single thing that HASN'T gone up in price. You want to know what serious price increase is? Try moving from Milwaukee, WI to Bay Area, CA. That will make paying a little more for top quality beer feel like pennies falling out of your pocket.

So far as the GMO grain: they probably use it because it is the highest quality. It is likely GMO to produce grain that is more resistant to attack by bugs and bacteria. A lot of GMO foods are used precisely to circumvent the use of pesticides. Not exactly sure what your beef is with that...

Exactly. I am all for GM food and brew. And 3.25 for a pint of RR is way way below average price for BMC where I live and in fact pretty much anywhere. And when you consider the pub you are getting it at is in one of the most expensive areas of the country it is that much more of a deal.

In fact I'm starting a movement;

We Want $3.25 RR Pints!!
We Want $3.25 RR Pints!!
We Want $3.25 RR Pints!!

Say it with me

We Want 3.25 RR Pints!!
We Want 3.25.........

 

[shoreman]

The only problem is that this whole argument is based on the assumption that "the little guy" has "forgotten what got them there." Its pretty pompous to assume that you know the motivations of a business and just declare that they've forgotten where they came from. Its pretty pompous to pretend that you understand every last cost that the brewer is facing and confidently state that they're just ripping you off as opposed to trying to stay in business, and gosh, maybe make a living.

If people don't think brewers should care about profit, that's fine. But accept that what would come with that is a lot less beer, because you'd only have brewers that could afford to brew as a hobby. As much as it is craft, it is also a living for these people.

You used pompous too many times for me to take this post serious. You really didn't understand what I meant in my post & frankly I don't have the time to spell it out to you more clearly.

 

[ktblunden]

Do note that just because grain prices may be lower does not mean there is less overhead. fuel prices, energy prices, insurance prices have ALL gone up noticeably in the last year.

This needs to be stressed. OP has offered no proof that RR's costs have dropped significantly while their prices go up. He throws out claims of GMO malts, which no one can seem to verify and says nothing about the actual high driver ingredient in beer: hops. RR uses a lot of (shortage-prone) hops in their beers. Malt prices may have gone down (I have no idea if they have or not), but hop prices are going up.

 

[TyTanium]

He throws out claims...

*She

 

[BrewKnurd]

You used pompous too many times for me to take this post serious. You really didn't understand what I meant in my post & frankly I don't have the time to spell it out to you more clearly.

Can't handle a word being used twice? Ok, good to know.

the argument you made was that rr its obviously forgetting where they came from. You provided no evidence for that claim other than an increase in price. That is my point.

if you don't have time to clarify, that's fine. I'm not sure why it would take that long, but you're obviously very busy.

 

[ktblunden]

*She

Huh, so it is. I stand corrected.

 

[Obliviousbrew]

Well if have to choose I want my beer for free.. but I can´t get for free... so then I have to buy it and if a like a particular beer that is hard to get (try to get any russian river in europe) I´ll just have to pay the price is worth. I think those guys worked their a*** off to make great beer and now they have a name, so if they want to charge 3.5 por a pint (here that´s really cheap that´s what you pay for a BMC pint) they have all the rigth to do so without anyone bitching about it... if you don´t like the prices or the beer anymore well you can always stop going there... it´s a free country... but please don´t ask me to agree with you because I can´t.

 

[brewit2it]

This needs to be stressed. OP has offered no proof that RR's costs have dropped significantly while their prices go up. He throws out claims of GMO malts, which no one can seem to verify and says nothing about the actual high driver ingredient in beer: hops. RR uses a lot of (shortage-prone) hops in their beers. Malt prices may have gone down (I have no idea if they have or not), but hop prices are going up.

GM CROP INFO

Barley

Research: Fungal resistance, modified product characteristics, herbicide tolerance

Field trials: EU 9, USA, Canada, Iceland, Australia

Approvals: None

Perspective: To date, a commercial use of GM barley cannot be expected to date.

 

[flatfour64]

A few things here:

1. If you want to stir things up on HBT, talk s*** about RR.

2. If you want one of the fastest growing threads on HBT, talk s*** about RR.

3. One other thing that sucks just as bad as a $3.25 pint of good beer from RR is that in some cars you have to press AND HOLD DOWN the window button to make the window go all the way down on a hot day. (Luckily, for me, my BMW has the one touch button for all four windows... whew!)

Someone talked about 1st world problems several pages ago, and I agree! I would have quoted it here, but I can't find it in the 16 pages of posts now!!!

I really do think the OP posted this as a joke????