Russian River Brewing Sucks

[Jukas]

One issue I can agree with the OP on is price!!

I can remember when Vinnie first started homebrewing in San Diego, he used to give his beer away! It was Free!!!

What's up with that! Why no more free beer?


the above statement is intended to poke fun at the troll who started this thread!

I know! Last time I went to RR I parked right in front of the brewery and then ordered a 16oz R2H56 during happy hour for $3.25. When I got back to my car I realized even though I hit max amount on the parking meter, it only charged my CC $0.25 and I had a $33 parking ticket.

$37 for a pint of beer? Seriously? Who does Vinnie think he is, damn sellout.

I know I know.. I shouldn't feed the troll, but I just couldn't help it

 

[lurker18]

Some would think so. That's why I'm asking...

It was the atrazine issue several years ago that got me looking into the issue more because it doesn't make sense.

Farmers are in the industry to produce as much as they can for as little cost as they can, right?

It doesn't make sense that they'd be using GMO seeds that needed more cost to get the same yield; hence the conspiracy folks...

The farmers do get a huge advantage in this case. Roundup (for RR ready soybeans) is fairly inexpensive kill all for the crop, so your chemical usage is actually less than conventional soybeans, where you have to use different chemicals for different weeds, and possibly multiple passes over the field (more fuel expense). The lack of weed pressure on the crop will produce better yeilds, thus more cash in the pocket. It is quite a bit cheaper to grow these GMO crops in the long run when everything is put together as a whole and not compared one piece at a time to conventional crops.

 

[lurker18]

Yep, they sell seeds that grow for one season, then you must buy more for the next crop. Add the fact that they have patents on some of these seeds and the size of their pockets to defend those patents/force out anyone who tries to compete with them and you can plainly see they have a monopoly and a death grip on farmers.

I agree that the mega chem companies are doing pretty good for themselves, but it is incorrect that the terminator gene is out there. They do have it, it does work, but there are (I am 99% sure) no plants that are using this gene at the moment.

 

[BigfootCounty]

I really was unaware how many of my fellow homebrewers were proponents of gmo products

very sad to me

ORGANIC FOR LIFE BITCHES

 

[wailingguitar]

Maybe I'm just riled up, but I would kind of like to hear the OP address the issue of alleging Cargill malt to be GMO. Clearly it isn't the case (I believe at least three posts thus far have shown this from different angles). So, OP, where did you come by this misinformation? FWIW, I am in no way connected to RR or Cargill, I just don't like unfounded accusations, especially between members of the brewing community.

 

[captgus]

Monsanto is evil!

 

[TrubHead]

No worries about the GMOs, the alcohol in beer destroys them.....it's science.

Pity the poor farmers who can't save their seed for next planting. Monsanto strong arms and litigate them into poverty if they don't buy their GMO seeds. It's been televised and nothing has changed since Monsanto makes substantial contributions ($$$) to the controlling political parties.

As far as RR raising their prices, well who is forcing anyone to buy them? Now if I could only get a bottle of that legendary enamel ripping brew.

 

[ao125]

I won't speak to the RR stuff as we don't get it here, but this word "Craft" needs to go.

Seems like you ask someone it's definition and they really can't define it accurately. I think "good" should replace "craft" when talking about beer. My.02

There's nothing wrong with the term "craft" to describe beer. If you're not mass producing it (e.g. BMC), and you're a brewer taking the time to make a good beer, that absolutely is a craft.

Craft
noun \ˈkraft\
Definition of CRAFT
1: skill in planning, making, or executing : dexterity
2 a : an occupation or trade requiring manual dexterity or artistic skill <the carpenter's craft> <the craft of writing plays> <crafts such as pottery, carpentry, and sewing> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/craft

According to Google:
craft/kraft/
Noun:
An activity involving skill in making things by hand.
Verb:
Use skill in making (something): "he crafted the chair"; "a beautifully crafted object".

Get down off your high horse before you hit your head.

 

[bob1852]

There's nothing wrong with the term "craft" to describe beer. If you're not mass producing it (e.g. BMC), and you're a brewer taking the time to make a good beer, that absolutely is a craft.

Craft
noun \&#712;kraft\
Definition of CRAFT
1: skill in planning, making, or executing : dexterity

Get down off your high horse before you hit your head.

So BMC lack skill in planning, making, and executing?

 

[SwampassJ]

Ummm...you were the first to use the term "liberal."

Had two other posters that had it but the posts have either been modified or removed.

 

[shoreman]

I think this post would be different if it was Sam Adams, New Belgium or .....wait for it....Guinness ( diageo )

RR has too much celeb status in craft for this post not to go nutz.

 

[phenry]

So BMC lack skill in planning, making, and executing?

Haven't you seen the thousands of bathtubs in which they ferment their beer swill? Their light beers don't taste like much, so they must be really bad at what they do, right? And in this response I'm agreeing with AZ if anyone is too dense to realize.

BMC has a market, they answer to it, and they make profit. I don't see what's so bad about that. I thought most Americans loved capitalism. Doesn't make sense why so many beer "connoisseurs" hate them so much.

 

[ao125]

How can a company claim to be against the fight for cancer with pink ribbons yet support pesticide producing GMO crop manufactures?

WTF does that even mean? "Against the fight for cancer"!? That's absolutely nonsensical.

Also, last time I checked, pink ribbons are for breast cancer... not this magical fictitious cancer you get from GMO crops.

 

[ao125]

So BMC lack skill in planning, making, and executing?

They skillfully plan an execute a consistently terrible product - but I'd never describe it as hand-made.

 

[SwampassJ]

I think this post would be different if it was Sam Adams, New Belgium or .....wait for it....Guinness ( diageo )

RR has too much celeb status in craft for this post not to go nutz.

I don't know about the Guinness one. Last time I told someone to not drink it if they didn't like it they commented on over 40 of my posts calling me derogatory names. Some people take their bitching to imaginary friends very seriously.

 

[bob1852]

They skillfully plan an execute a consistently terrible product - but I'd never describe it as hand-made.

But Sierra Nevada is hand made?

 

[terrapinj]

good read (few years old) on Monsanto and their business practices
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/05/monsanto200805

 

[shoreman]

I don't know about the Guinness one. Last time I told someone to not drink it if they didn't like it they commented on over 40 of my posts calling me derogatory names. Some people take their bitching to imaginary friends very seriously.

Lol - I think I remember it and my post was honoring the Guinness post.

 

[Obliviousbrew]

I understand the concern for the farmers here but the companies did invest billions into these products and should have some right to protect their investment. If they didn't make money they wouldn't be selling them. The farmers have the option of growing non-gmo and thus growing their own seed but it's not cost effective for them to do that either.

Having a seed that you can't reuse means interrupting the cycle of life... why is that a good thing why should we allow that someone haves a patent on a living organism... as homebrewers what we will think if companies producing yeast do something with them to make you buy a new vial everytime you brew?

 

[jtakacs]

WTF does that even mean? "Against the fight for cancer"!? That's absolutely nonsensical.

Also, last time I checked, pink ribbons are for breast cancer... not this magical fictitious cancer you get from GMO crops.

it's a typo - RRB makes a pink beer every year (most years?) for cancer fundraising.

 

[Jukas]

I really was unaware how many of my fellow homebrewers were proponents of gmo products

very sad to me

ORGANIC FOR LIFE BITCHES

I didn't see a single person on this thread saying "HELL YEAH I LOVE GMO GROWN FOOD".

I prefer organic and locally grown whenever possible, however not everyone cares or can afford to justify the 20-25% price increase for organic/local grown foodstuffs. I tend to buy mostly organic poultry, beef, veggies and eggs looking for natural fed and hormone free. It costs me significantly more and I guarantee you there are plenty of people out there that couldn't afford to make organics a substantial staple of their diet.

An organic pint of RR would likely cost $6 each for normal beers just by going to organic malts, likely more if you went all organic hops.

I bet they would see a significant trackable drop off in pint sales if they raised their prices to $6 each, especially when there wasn't much of a noticeable taste difference to the general public.

 

[OG2620]

They skillfully plan an execute a consistently terrible product - but I'd never describe it as hand-made.

You are right. It's made by robots.

 

[OG2620]

bmc has a market, they answer to it, and they make profit. I don't see what's so bad about that. I thought most americans loved capitalism. Doesn't make sense why so many beer "connoisseurs" hate them so much.

+1

 

[J-Pizzel]

Has the use of GMO grains been verified or is this all rumored or only in some of their beers and if so, are they the ones that all the pitchforks and torches being pulled out for?

 

[jtakacs]

so far rumor, but my torch, pitchfork and i are waltzing down the block to raid RRB.

i don't like waiting for facts.

 

[terrapinj]

I didn't see a single person on this thread saying "HELL YEAH I LOVE GMO GROWN FOOD".

read again - there were at least a few who praised the benefits and safety of GMO crops

 

[BigfootCounty]

I didn't see a single person on this thread saying "HELL YEAH I LOVE GMO GROWN FOOD".

not being able to afford organics and not supporting organics are two entirely different things


but people claiming that gmo "saved the world" or "are just as tasty"
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

live for 1 day on feeding yourself nothing but super potent chemically derived vitamins. Wash it down with something that will kill all of the living organisms in your gut then tell me how there were absolutely no effects.

then keep ramping you dosages up and up and up for 60 years... real healthy right.

for those of you who are unaware there are other things growing in the soil besides plants that our earth needs to function.

not to even mention the unknown long term effects of such farming practices.

we test drugs very very very thoroughly but do we test such pesticides/fertilizers...yes but only to make sure they grow things and or kill the bad stuff because well you know who gives a **** right?

 

[BigfootCounty]

sorry that was a bit dramatic...

it is a sore topic for me and I try to stay off those kinds of subjects on forums like this ( sometimes unsuccessfully )

my apologies to anyone who this may have offended homebrewers are my favorite kinds of people and I am certainly not trying to alienate anyone.

 

[wailingguitar]

Has the use of GMO grains been verified or is this all rumored or only in some of their beers and if so, are they the ones that all the pitchforks and torches being pulled out for?

Not verified, debunked... totally unfounded rumor. Not only does Cargill not sell GMO malt, but they know of none to exist.

 

[FredTheNuke]

GMO Barley would be awesome if it would prevent hangovers after over indulgence!!!

That's about as much thought as this thread warrants... For either side.

 

[KingBrianI]

we test drugs very very very thoroughly but do we test such pesticides/fertilizers...yes but only to make sure they grow things and or kill the bad stuff because well you know who gives a **** right?

Before you begin spouting off, maybe you should have an idea about what you're talking about. I happen to have an idea of what I'm talking about because it's my job. Each and every pesticide registered for use in the United States has undergone over 100 studies as required by the EPA to test their safety and kinetics in the environment and in organisms. Most pesticides are less toxic than many things you probably eat every day. Glyphosate, for example, the herbicide used for Roundup Ready crops, is less toxic than lima beans. You would die from eating lima beans long before you would die from eating pure glyphosate. And the residues of pesticides on crops that have been treated are typically in the ppm or ppb range at harvest. That is parts per million or billion. We are talking one blade of grass on a football field or one drop of water in an olympic size pool.

So while you and others like you spout off the danger of pesticides without knowing what you are talking about, scientists are testing them and companies are spending millions of dollars doing the testing REQUIRED to have them registered for sale. If they fail any of those tests, they don't get registered.

I probably haven't swayed your opinion with any of this, because people like you tend not to make decisions based on facts but based on feelings. But hopefully others who read this might now be a bit more informed about pesticides.

 

[passedpawn]

Vinnie sent me this email. This should seal this particular issue:

Andrew,

Thanks for the email, the malts we use are not GMO, in fact, as I understand it, no North American malt is GMO, for now.

I know there is talk in the malted barley industry regarding GMO malt, some companies are for it for obvious yield factors, while others are against it.

We purchase malt from several of the major malt suppliers in the North America and some from Europe. Obviously if some of our suppliers start growing GMO barley for malting we would seriously reconsider our relationship with that maltster. I am hoping that some maltsters will take the lead in keeping at least some of the barley GMO free for the hundreds of brewers that don’t want their malt GMO like us.

What web site is the debate going? I’d be curious to read some of the consumer comments, right now I think there is a real disconnect between the giant malt companies, their barley growers and the brewers and consumers who don’t want GMO. But this of course is the case with most food products that are no GMO. I just recently looked at a list of foods that are GMO, it is really crazy and it makes me appreciate all the local produce and food we get here in Sonoma County.

Take care,

Vinnie

Vinnie Cilurzo
Brewer / Owner
Russian River Brewing Company​

 

[wailingguitar]

I'm on the fence about the whole GMO thing, but have to say KingBrianI makes some good points and has a solid argument.

 

[bob1852]

Before you begin spouting off, maybe you should have an idea about what you're talking about. I happen to have an idea of what I'm talking about because it's my job. Each and every pesticide registered for use in the United States has undergone over 100 studies as required by the EPA to test their safety and kinetics in the environment and in organisms. Most pesticides are less toxic than many things you probably eat every day. Glyphosate, for example, the herbicide used for Roundup Ready crops, is less toxic than lima beans. You would die from eating lima beans long before you would die from eating pure glyphosate. And the residues of pesticides on crops that have been treated are typically in the ppm or ppb range at harvest. That is parts per million or billion. We are talking one blade of grass on a football field or one drop of water in an olympic size pool.

So while you and others like you spout off the danger of pesticides without knowing what you are talking about, scientists are testing them and companies are spending millions of dollars doing the testing REQUIRED to have them registered for sale. If they fail any of those tests, they don't get registered.

I probably haven't swayed your opinion with any of this, because people like you tend not to make decisions based on facts but based on feelings. But hopefully others who read this might now be a bit more informed about pesticides.

How is atrazine still registered as safe?

 

[BigfootCounty]

Before you begin spouting off, maybe you should have an idea about what you're talking about.

all you have to do is ask anyone involved in almost any other science

ask any microbiologist or mycologist or really any biologist the long term implications of widespread chemical farming


surprising that a lot of chemists and chemical industry takes a positive stance towards this kind of thing...pharmacutical companies still dispense deadly drugs to lots of people daily that have been fda approved. that doesn't mean that 1000miligrams of oxycoton wont kill you

the people in charge REALLY saw DDT coming right that stuff was SUPER safe

not to mention all the stuff the G deems unsafe we sell to countries where it isn't illegal and then buy the products they grow with it

I guess it is collateral damage

I have no beef with chemists at all just to clarify. SCIENCE RULES! Some other organizations may want to re-evaluate their testing before they deem something safe

 

[Qhrumphf]

all you have to do is ask anyone involved in almost any other science

ask any microbiologist or mycologist or really any biologist the long term implications of widespread chemical farming


surprising that a lot of chemists and chemical industry takes a positive stance towards this kind of thing...pharmacutical companies still dispense deadly drugs to lots of people daily that have been fda approved. that doesn't mean that 1000miligrams of oxycoton wont kill you

the people in charge REALLY saw DDT coming right that stuff was SUPER safe

With all due respect, this argument is kind of a straw man. I'm not particularly educated on the specifics of GMO, herbicides, pesticides. I tend to be of the mindset that ecosystems (as just about everything else in the natural world) are incredibly complex systems that we don't (and likely never will) fully understand, and there will always be some sort of unforeseen reaction. The question, as with just about everything else in life, is cost/benefit analysis.

 

[motobrewer]

i didn't read past the first page...

but essentially, OP posted "This brewery just upped their price 40% (forty percent) overnight"

people on here literally nickel and dime over a pound of two row, but since it's RR, they can charge whatever they want.

 

[KingBrianI]

How is atrazine still registered as safe?

I'm not too familiar with atrazine as it's a syngenta product, but in my brief reading it looks like it may show teratogenic and demasculinating effects at certain levels. Alcohol is a teratogen, should we ban it? And hops have demasculinating effects on humans. What you must understand is that everything is toxic. Water is toxic in high enough doses. The poison is in the dose, as they say.

all you have to do is ask anyone involved in almost any other science

ask any microbiologist or mycologist or really any biologist the long term implications of widespread chemical farming


surprising that a lot of chemists and chemical industry takes a positive stance towards this kind of thing...pharmacutical companies still dispense deadly drugs to lots of people daily that have been fda approved. that doesn't mean that 1000miligrams of oxycoton wont kill you

the people in charge REALLY saw DDT coming right that stuff was SUPER safe

not to mention all the stuff the G deems unsafe we sell to countries where it isn't illegal and then buy the products they grow with it

I guess it is collateral damage

Pesticides have labels that must be legally followed by the farmer. These labels dictate the rate and time between applications the farmer must follow in order to use the product. When used according to the label, the pesticides' use is safe. The same as oxycoton when used at the prescribed rate.

And DDT is super safe. You could drink it and not feel a thing. The problem was that it caused the eggshells of raptors to become weak. It is still used in Africa where its use prevents millions of people from dying of malaria.

 

[BigfootCounty]

With all due respect, this argument is kind of a straw man. I'm not particularly educated on the specifics of GMO, herbicides, pesticides. I tend to be of the mindset that ecosystems (as just about everything else in the natural world) are incredibly complex systems that we don't (and likely never will) fully understand, and there will always be some sort of unforeseen reaction. The question, as with just about everything else in life, is cost/benefit analysis.

I don't really feel it is a straw personally as you can look at the huge list of chemicals with similar applications that have been made illegal in our country and worldwide.

lots of them are banned in Canada and Europe but we still use them here

 

[bob1852]

I'm not too familiar with atrazine as it's a syngenta product, but in my brief reading it looks like it may show teratogenic and demasculinating effects at certain levels. Alcohol is a teratogen, should we ban it? And hops have demasculinating effects on humans. What you must understand is that everything is toxic. Water is toxic in high enough doses. The poison is in the dose, as they say.

Oh I understand that, and yes dihydrogen monoxide is extremely dangerous!

The industry just seems to have a very powerful lobby when it comes to pesticide registration and everything I've read about atrazine's effects on living things, especially amphibians, leads me to believe it is nasty stuff, especially when there is very little enforcement of labeled use.