Recipe advise for lager novice

[aidan]

I'm mostly a Pale Ale guy and have only done a couple of lagers which I've been underwhealmed with. But I have some Mangrove Jacks M84 lager yeast, Wyerman Bohemian Pilsner malt, Munich malt, Halertau hops here so I'm planning to have another go at a lager. Being a hoppy ale drinker I usually find lagers ok but a bit on the bland side for my liking. I was thinking of going a bit heavier with the Halertau hops to get a bit more hoppiness than usual but this thread has put that a bit into question.

So I'm looking for some advise on a lager recipe that uses the ingredients that I already have on hand but has a bit more character than a typical lager. Here's what I have on hand:

Yeast: Mangrove Jacks M84 Bohemian lager yeast

Hops:
Halertau - 100g (3.5oz ) pellets
Pacifica (aka Pacific Halertau) - 60g whole leaf
Pacifica (aka Pacific Halertau) - 100g pellets
I also have some other vaieties (Pacific Gem, Fuggle, Dr Rudi, Green Bullet, Rakau ) but the Halertau & Pacific Halertau are what I was thinking of using

Malt:
Wyerman Bohemian Pilsner
Wyerman Munich II
Munich I - small amount 1.2 kg
I also have ale malt, light crystal malt and small amounts of med crystal, wheat, rye, biscuit malt, CaraAroma, Carafa Special II, Pale Chocolate, Roast Barley

 

[aidan]

anyone got any input on this? like, what would be a good amount of munich to add? would adding 100g of Halertau pellets plus 100g of Pacific Halertau pellets and 60g of whole leaf Pacific Halertau, mostly in late additions, be a bad idea?

 

[FarmerTed]

Keeping in mind that I've brewed a whopping four lagers, one just four days ago, my advice is to keep the recipe simple. Most lagers use 1-2 malts and 1 or maybe 2 hops; imo the recipes aren't as complex as a lot of ale recipes. Anyway, it's not clear what you're trying to brew. Do you want a Vienna lager, or some kind of dunkel? They usually aren't that hoppy. If you want hoppy, brew a pilsner, and stick to pilsner malt, and maybe carapils or a small amount of Munich or Vienna malt. I wouldn't do a kitchen sink type of beer, though.

 

[aidan]

Keeping in mind that I've brewed a whopping four lagers, one just four days ago, my advice is to keep the recipe simple. Most lagers use 1-2 malts and 1 or maybe 2 hops; imo the recipes aren't as complex as a lot of ale recipes. Anyway, it's not clear what you're trying to brew. Do you want a Vienna lager, or some kind of dunkel? They usually aren't that hoppy. If you want hoppy, brew a pilsner, and stick to pilsner malt, and maybe carapils or a small amount of Munich or Vienna malt. I wouldn't do a kitchen sink type of beer, though.

Open to suggestion as I'm not that well up on lager styles. Maybe a hoppy pilsner might be the ticket as I am a bit if a hop head. So you wouldn't use much Munich malt then? Would it clash with the hops? Can you do a good hoppy beer with halertau? Would all 260g of my halertau and pacific halertau be too much?

 

[FarmerTed]

You should look up some of the recipes in the pilsner forum; if we're talking a five gallon batch, I would think that 260 g (9 oz) is way too much hops. Two or three oz near the end of boil is probably more like it, and possibly on the heavy side. (I personally would just use a high alpha hop lime magnum for the bjttering). I think some Munich would be alright, but I also think that most lager styles that are heavy on Munich (especially dark Munich) are meant to be malty, and don't have a huge hop presence.

 

[aidan]

If one was going for a hoppy pilsner with lots of late hops, is halertau a bad choice?

 

[FarmerTed]

If one was going for a hoppy pilsner with lots of late hops, is halertau a bad choice?

I think it's probably what most German pilsners use, so no, I'm sure it's a fine choice.

 

[aidan]

I think it's probably what most German pilsners use, so no, I'm sure it's a fine choice.

Well that's exactly what I was thinking - but then I come across discussions like this one which seem to imply that my original idea of a hoppy halertau lager might not come out so good.

Is there anyone here who likes halertau hops as a late hop addition? Anyone tried Pacifica (Pacific Halertau)?

 

[aidan]

Ok, here's first cut at a recipe:

November Pilsner
German Pilsner (Pils)

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size: 23 L (6 Gal)
Total Grain: 5 kg (11 lbs)
Total Hops: 160 g (5.6 oz)
Original Gravity: 1.047
Final Gravity: 1.012
Alcohol by Volume: 4.62 %
Colour (SRM): 4.8 (EBC): 9.5
Bitterness (IBU): 21.5 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 90

Grain Bill
----------------
4.0 kg (8.8 lbs) Pilsner - Wyermann Floor-Malted Bohemian (80%)
0.6 kg (1.3 lbs) Munich I - Wyermann (12%)
0.2 kg (0.4 lbs) Munich II - Wyermann (4%)
0.2 kg (0.4 lbs) Wheat Malt (4%)

Hop Bill
----------------
30 g (1 oz) Hallertau Hersbrucker Pellet (2.8% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.3 g/L)
30 g (1 oz) Hallertau Hersbrucker Pellet (2.8% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (1.3 g/L)
40 g (1.4 oz) Hallertau Hersbrucker Pellet (2.8% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (1.7 g/L)
60 g (2 oz) Pacific Hallertau Leaf (5.8% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Boil) (2.6 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------
0.1 g Koppafloc @ 15 Minutes (Boil)

Single step Infusion at 67°C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 12°C with MJ - Bohemian Lager Yeast - M84

Appreciate any feedback please.

 

[dfhar]

I think your bitterness is a little low at 21 for a German Pils. The other thing about lagers is that I find the cold conditioning seems to bring out the flavor/aroma of the 15-30 minute hops a bit more, and the late hops sometimes fade a bit. I would probably move 1 oz of the flameout hops to 30 minutes and see where that gets you bitterness-wise; try for around 30-35 IBU.

 

[aidan]

On dfhar's advice I've updated the recipe as follows:

November Pilsner
German Pilsner (Pils)

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size: 23 L (6 Gal)
Total Grain: 5 kg (11 lbs)
Total Hops: 160 g (5.6 oz)
Original Gravity: 1.047
Final Gravity: 1.012
Alcohol by Volume: 4.62 %
Colour (SRM): 4.8 (EBC): 9.5
Bitterness (IBU): 35.1 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 90

Grain Bill
----------------
4.0 kg (8.8 lbs) Pilsner - Wyermann Floor-Malted Bohemian (80%)
0.6 kg (1.3 lbs) Munich I - Wyermann (12%)
0.2 kg (0.4 lbs) Munich II - Wyermann (4%)
0.2 kg (0.4 lbs) Wheat Malt (4%)

Hop Bill
----------------
30 g (1 oz) Hallertau Hersbrucker Pellet (2.8% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (1.3 g/L)
30 g (1 oz) Hallertau Hersbrucker Pellet (2.8% Alpha) @ 30 Minutes (Boil) (1.3 g/L)
40 g (1.4 oz) Hallertau Hersbrucker Pellet (2.8% Alpha) @ 20 Minutes (Boil) (1.7 g/L)
60 g (2 oz) Pacific Hallertau Leaf (5.8% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil) (2.6 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------
0.1 g Koppafloc @ 15 Minutes (Boil)

Single step Infusion at 67°C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 12°C with MJ - Bohemian Lager Yeast - M84

Any further feedback most welcome
Cheers, Aidan

 

[aidan]

anyone have an opinion on how this will turn out with the aggressive late hopping schedule?