Real Wort Starter Idea

[SkiNuke]

I have been looking into real wort starters and I like the idea behind them. I have been making DME starters for my past few brews, and I feel like its cheating. As such, I have a few questions relating to RWS:

1) I don't do no-chill, and really don't plan to for a long long while, but I would be chilling and decanting the starter, so the wort will still be sitting in my fermentation fridge for a few days while the RWS is being prepared. What do I need to be aware of, or do in order for this to succeed?

2) Should I dilute the starter to an OG of 1.040 or is that overrated?

3) Is this a worthy endeavor, or should I just suck it up and make a starter out of DME?

 

[cravej]

I'm confused, are you drawing a small amount from your batch and letting the batch wait until your starter kicks off?

If that's the case, then you might as well just put the yeast right into the batch.

 

[SkiNuke]

I was going to draw a small amount from the batch, kick off the starter, then chill and decant (not pitching at high krausen). I'd rather not get the potential off flavors from the starter incorporated into the beer.

 

[Tinga]

what lots of people do is can wort. You do an all grain batch boil it without hops and then can the wort in a mason jar so all you have to do the night before is grab a can-o-wort ptch the yeast and you have yourself a starter.

 

[cravej]

I was going to draw a small amount from the batch, kick off the starter, then chill and decant (not pitching at high krausen). I'd rather not get the potential off flavors from the starter incorporated into the beer.

I wouldn't let a wort sit for a few days just to make a starter though. Save real wort from a previous batch, so that you can make the starter before brewing and have it ready when you need it.

 

[DubBrew]

what lots of people do is can wort. You do an all grain batch boil it without hops and then can the wort in a mason jar so all you have to do the night before is grab a can-o-wort ptch the yeast and you have yourself a starter.

This is what I was thinking about doing. Making a batch of wort just for starters and canning the whole batch which means I'll have plenty for many starters. I just need canning supplies

 

[TyTanium]

I wouldn't let a wort sit for a few days just to make a starter though. Save real wort from a previous batch, so that you can make the starter before brewing and have it ready when you need it.

+1 Absolutely. Fresh, cooled wort is Disneyland for microorganisms. You want to pitch your yeast ASAP so it takes over.

 

[SkiNuke]

Whats the shelf life of canned wort? And would it be possible to make life easier and mash in the oven?

 

[Tinga]

Whats the shelf life of canned wort? And would it be possible to make life easier and mash in the oven?

if you pressure canned the wort it would last probably about 5 years

 

[tknice]

This is what I was thinking about doing. Making a batch of wort just for starters and canning the whole batch which means I'll have plenty for many starters. I just need canning supplies

This is what I do and it works great--we make 7 x 1 quart starters at a time.

 

[BrewerinBR]

I use real wort for starters all the time. I normally have about 1.5 quarts of running's from my sparge (batch) that will not fit into the boil kettle. I put it unboiled into a growler and cap it and put it in the fridge the SG is usually about 1.030. When I need wort for a starter I boil this and cool and pitch the yeast (or harvest from bottles). Normally I brew Sunday and then prepare the starter Tuesday evening for the following weekend. If I do not have saved wort I make it. 1lb of grain crushed and placed in a nylon straining bag. Bring 2 quarts of water to 150F and put the grains in, steep for 30 to 45 minutes. Remove grains, boil and cool pitch or harvest get about 1.5 quarts of 1.030 wort. Not hard at all. Not much time either.

 

[TyTanium]

I put it unboiled into a growler and cap it and put it in the fridge...

And this doesn't sour on you? It's gotta be loaded with lactobacillus.

 

[Brewer_Steve]

This wort is from the bottom of my kettle, so it is hopped.
I pressure can it.

If you don't have a canner, you can just freeze it in a plastic container, and then thaw it and boil it before making a starter. I prefer canned, since I don't have to boil it.

 

[tknice]

Here's a guide on canning starters for anyone who is interested.

http://www.brewgeeks.com/make-starters.html

 

[bernerbrau]

I feel like it needs emphasis: Boiling wort will not kill off the botulism spores that can grow in an anaerobic environment. Wort MUST be pressure-canned. There is a very real risk of serious illness and even death from botulism poisoning if you simply store boiled wort in mason jars.

 

[tknice]

I feel like it needs emphasis: Boiling wort will not kill off the botulism spores that can grow in an anaerobic environment. Wort MUST be pressure-canned. There is a very real risk of serious illness and even death from botulism poisoning if you simply store boiled wort in mason jars.

+1

Yeah, don't play with this one.

 

[jd3]

If you let your wort sit for a day or two you risk letting it go wild and ferment from wild yeasts. Recovering from that is next to impossible.

 

[brewsme]

What's wrong with just using extra light DME? I've never noticed any difference in flavor and I usually toss the whole starter in.

 

[bernerbrau]

If you let your wort sit for a day or two you risk letting it go wild and ferment from wild yeasts. Recovering from that is next to impossible.

Then you just add some stale hops and call it a farmhouse ale.

 

[SkiNuke]

So if I don't want to shell out 200 bucks or so on a pressure canner, should I avoid canning wort?

 

[bernerbrau]

So if I don't want to shell out 200 bucks or so on a pressure canner, should I avoid canning wort?

Yes; that is, unless you like the idea of asphyxia due to lung paralysis while fully conscious.

 

[SkiNuke]

Well then, back to my original question. Whats so bad about letting my wort sit for a few days waiting on my RWS to be ready to pitch?

 

[tknice]

So if I don't want to shell out 200 bucks or so on a pressure canner, should I avoid canning wort?

I got mine from Walmart for something like $80.

Yes, don't can without a pressure cooker unless you are only storing for a short time.

 

[bernerbrau]

Well then, back to my original question. Whats so bad about letting my wort sit for a few days waiting on my RWS to be ready to pitch?

Spontaneous fermentation.

 

[cravej]

Well then, back to my original question. Whats so bad about letting my wort sit for a few days waiting on my RWS to be ready to pitch?

Some other organism (yeast or bacteria) will take over, before the strain of yeast that you are trying to prep. Good sanitation will limit that, but the wort is at it's most vulnerable as soon as you cool it down.

Another option is to do a mini mash a few days before brew day, to make a real wort starter.

 

[StMarcos]

You could also freeze the wort. My plan to do this with a specially mashed batch of 1.080 wort. Would take up half the space. Could be a good use for stale grain, which I unfortunately have a lot of right now!!!

 

[joelrapp]

I have been looking into real wort starters and I like the idea behind them. I have been making DME starters for my past few brews, and I feel like its cheating. As such, I have a few questions relating to RWS:

1) I don't do no-chill, and really don't plan to for a long long while, but I would be chilling and decanting the starter, so the wort will still be sitting in my fermentation fridge for a few days while the RWS is being prepared. What do I need to be aware of, or do in order for this to succeed?

2) Should I dilute the starter to an OG of 1.040 or is that overrated?

3) Is this a worthy endeavor, or should I just suck it up and make a starter out of DME?

Take it for what it is worth but what I do is this (Only with paler beers):

When I make a batch close to the OG of 1.040 I brew an extra 1-2 gallons. I portion out 1 quart mason jars of this wort and then use my pressure cooker to sterilize and seal it. When I am ready for a starter it is just as simple as cracking open a can or two. If I am making a light colored high gravity beer I will do the same and then just dilute when making my starter. This has worked great for me so far.

 

[ghpeel]

So if I don't want to shell out 200 bucks or so on a pressure canner, should I avoid canning wort?

A cheap pressure cooker can be bought at Wal-Mart or Target for $30-40 bucks. Isn't that all you need?

 

[adrock430]

Where do the claims of botulism come from? Botulinum is extremely pH sensitive. Unfermented wort is in the 5 range, while BoNT lives in pH 6.5 and higher environs. You may only think that 5 to 6 is only one unit, but its a log scale.

Also, and wort is not dense, its liquid, no heat penetration issues there. Heating it for 15-20 minute boil is more than enough to kill any bacteria in there, spores or not.

 

[bernerbrau]

Where do the claims of botulism come from? Botulinum is extremely pH sensitive. Unfermented wort is in the 5 range, while BoNT lives in pH 6.5 and higher environs. You may only think that 5 to 6 is only one unit, but its a log scale.

Also, and wort is not dense, its liquid, no heat penetration issues there. Heating it for 15-20 minute boil is more than enough to kill any bacteria in there, spores or not.

Where are you getting 6.5? According to wikipedia, Botulinum grows in a pH range of 4.8 - 7, not 6.5 and above:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_botulinum

And a google search for "botulinum pH" confirms this number.

The claims of botulism in actual beer are certainly alarmist. But unfermented wort isn't acidic enough to prevent the growth of botulism.

A 15-20 boil will not kill botulinum spores. Pressure cooking is the only simple means of raising wort to 250F in a home kitchen.

 

[ghpeel]

Hmm that article mentions that "Honey, corn syrup, and other sweeteners may contain spores but the spores cannot grow in a highly concentrated sugar solution..."

I wonder if it's possible to guard against botulism in canned wort by getting the gravity high enough, in addition too, NOT REPLACING, the high pressure boil.

 

[weirdboy]

What I did the other day was make a small BIAB batch in my rice cooker for the starter.

 

[bernerbrau]

I wonder if it's possible to guard against botulism in canned wort by getting the gravity high enough, in addition too, NOT REPLACING, the high pressure boil.

At that point you're probably making LME

 

[adrock430]

Where are you getting 6.5? According to wikipedia, Botulinum grows in a pH range of 4.8 - 7, not 6.5 and above:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_botulinum

And a google search for "botulinum pH" confirms this number.

The claims of botulism in actual beer are certainly alarmist. But unfermented wort isn't acidic enough to prevent the growth of botulism.

A 15-20 boil will not kill botulinum spores. Pressure cooking is the only simple means of raising wort to 250F in a home kitchen.

The google search did show below 5 can have activity, so this is me with egg on my face (although I did see 5.6 pH prevents terrestrial strains from growing, but safety first)

However, to the OPs question, hop compounds inhibit growth as well (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6251461.html) It's a patent, but the evidence is laid out. So maybe a little hop in the starter, paired with an acidity can assuage any botulism concerns? I hop to prevent lacto, so it's a good addition regardless.

 

[bernerbrau]

However, to the OPs question, hop compounds inhibit growth as well (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6251461.html) It's a patent, but the evidence is laid out. So maybe a little hop in the starter, paired with an acidity can assuage any botulism concerns? I hop to prevent lacto, so it's a good addition regardless.

If the only risk was a bad bowel movement or a week of vomiting, I'd say have at 'er. But the LD50 is measured in billionths of a gram. Only half a kg of pure botulinum toxin, administered directly, would be sufficient to wipe out half the world's population. I just wouldn't bless with it at all. Stick to the tried and true methods.