Question on caramel

[GDRMaille]

Well, I pitched what I could salvage out of the larger bottle yesterday onto the following recipe:

2 gal apple juice
1 gal apple cider
3 packed cups brown sugar

-dissolved the BS into 0.5 gal of the juice
-took 1.5 cups of the remaining juice/cider mixture to "start"the yeast
-stirred like a mad man to aerate

36 hours in; the airlock is not bubbling away mad, but the yeast has formed a nice krausen

Here's to hoping all goes well!

OG ended up at 1.062

-captured from another post, provided as background info-

So, after pitching a second starter things seem to be progressing nicely. After reading about adding caramel in other recipes, I wanted opinions on an idea:

Would caramel be a good back sweetener added in at bottling, while adding some depth to flavor?

 

[Daze]

it will add lots of depth and be a fantastic back sweetener. Just make sure you used caramelized sugar and not caramel ice cream type syrup. also make sure to stabilize either before you bottle or by pasteurizing after it carbs up... if that is your plan.

 

[GDRMaille]

pasteurizing after it carbs up...

Is that done by cold crashing in the fridge after say, two weeks in the bottle? Or some other way?

-note, this is my second brew ever. I don't have any kegging equipment-

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

the only issue I see would be that it might not mix well in the bottling bucket. I'm sure this has been done before though with success. Be careful not to oxidize your cider while mixing.

You can find more info on bottle pasteurizing at:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-pics-193295/

 

[Daze]

the only issue I see would be that it might not mix well in the bottling bucket. I'm sure this has been done before though with success. Be careful not to oxidize your cider while mixing.

You can find more info on bottle pasteurizing at:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/easy-stove-top-pasteurizing-pics-193295/

If made properly the caramel is not to thick to begin with. Then when you mix it you need to thin it with some of the cider first. This will minimize oxidization and make it easier to mix with the rest of the cider.

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

Makes sense, more of a caramelized simple syrup...I was thinking the ice cream stuff

 

[Daze]

it is not quite a simple syrup because simple syrup is usually 1:1 this is thicker closer to 3:1 BUT still not as thick and gooey as the ice cream stuff this is a pic of the syrup I made

 

[GDRMaille]

Thanks for the input! I am still waiting for the fermentation to finish, but that write up was a nice read. I think I am going to cold crash this time, since I don't plan to hand out any (plenty of room in the 2nd fridge). Maybe SWMBO will be willing to make the caramel for me ;D

 

[GDRMaille]

After doing a little more research, looks like caramelizing sugar won't give me the flavor effect I want. What about something like Torani's flavor syrup?

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

I'd suggest doing some research on those to see what the ingredients are. Might be good to add into a glass and then pour your cider on top...I dunno if I'd want them in my fermenter.

 

[Daze]

After doing a little more research, looks like caramelizing sugar won't give me the flavor effect I want. What about something like Torani's flavor syrup?

says who??? The caramelized sugar gives fantastic caramel flavor

 

[GDRMaille]

aze: A few posts in here and several other articles that came up after "googling" caramel in beer

I think I will try your suggestion as my priming sugar. If the flavor isn't strong enough, then maybe I'll try pouring the cider on top of the flavored syrup in the glass at time of drinking.

Thanks again everyone for the input!

 

[Raudhbjorn]

Why not use the ice cream stuff? Or for that matter why not use actual caramelized cream?

 

[Daze]

aze: A few posts in here and several other articles that came up after "googling" caramel in beer

Well there is the first problem, beer and cider are totally different things There are a lot of assertive flavors in beer and I can see where caramelized sugar would not be enough with beer, however cider is not nearly as assertive as beer and doesn't need something stronger. when done correctly the caramel flavors come through loud and clear. I think the cases where the caramelized sugar was not enough in cider, were cases where it was added in the beginning or during fermentation. The fermentation process eats up all the caramelized sugar so you loose the flavor. Also if you do not make a DARK caramelized sugar then there is not a lot of caramel flavor.

Why not use the ice cream stuff? Or for that matter why not use actual caramelized cream?

That is a great question. The biggest issue is there is a lot of "other stuff" in ice cream type syrup including oils which can separate out as the cider ages. Even on a caramelized cream the main flavor is the caramelized sugar and that is why it is an effective backsweetener.

 

[GDRMaille]

Daze, thanks for the clarity... I will post somewhere down the line after I taste the results! To finalize this, do you recommend brown or white sugar? I have 3 gal to prime, so how much dry sugar should I prepare into a syrup?

 

[Daze]

depends on how sweet you want it. I recommend making it and then sweetening to taste. I plan on adding 2 cups to a 1 gallon batch I am currently making, but I added a lot of acid blend to it so I will need it to be sweeter. here is my caramel recipe

"**caramelized sugar syrup

The following is my own version of a caramel syrup illustrated in this thread
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/20-lb-sugar-jar-yeast-nutrient-114837/

Really the only difference between mine and his is I use white and brown sugar and I don't use DAP. By not using the DAP you are required to heat the sugar up hotter to get the same effect.

To make the caramel syrup take 1 lb white sugar and 1 lb brown sugar and 1 cup of water. Mix together and bring the mix to a boil over medium heat. Using a candy thermometer, stop the boil at 300º F by SLOWLY adding a about a cup of hot water while gently stirring the solution. Be careful as the mix will spit out hot bits. After adding the water you will need to dissolve the syrup by stirring gently until the solution reaches the stage called soft ball (240F). This is when the syrup is done. Stop the cooking by submerging the pan in cool water or by transferring the syrup to a preheated mason jar. The final product should have a nice dark brown color similar to a dark beer and should have a strong caramel flavor but should not have a burned flavor. Make sure you taste it after it cools because if it tastes burnt it will ruin your cider."

 

[jkoegel]

Thank you Daze for inspiring this batch with your picture of the mason jar filled with syrup.
I have a 6.5 gal batch in secondary now.
5lb white sugar
2lb light brown sugar
1/4cup lemon juice
3 cups h2o
Slowly brought the temp up to 285deg. nice medium brown caramel color. That last 15 degrees will make a big difference in color.
cooled the pot in the sink filled with ice water and then thinned the syrup with a gallon of cider and added it to the carboy.
After 2 weeks in the primary it was down to 1.012 from 1.076 and still has an awesome caramel flavor to it. The cider is staying a nice amber color as it clears.
Added oak chips in the secondary too.

 

[Daze]

sounds tasty. Keep in mind that if you ferment it out dry you will loose a lot of the nice caramel flavor.

 

[jkoegel]

I was under the impression that the act of caramelization creates some non-fermentable sugars that would be left behind.
I could be wrong.
Waiting game for a couple weeks to see what the FG and taste will be like.

 

[Daze]

could be, I was under the impression that adding the carmel before fermentation caused you to loose most of it, so I have never tried adding it at the beginning. My thinking has always been to back sweeten with it. can't weight to see how yours comes out so that if it works I can add one more technique to my arsenal. thanks for the update.

 

[jkoegel]

New info I found here: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2007/02/belgian-sugar-experiment.html

The homemade caramel was made using instructions from the great book Brew Like a Monk. It was easy enough, heat one bottle of light Karo Corn Syrup with 9 grams of Diammonium Phosphate (DAP, a yeast nutrient) until the desired color and flavor are reached. While the batch containing the caramel did end up tasting pretty good the caramel did not ferment (.009 gravity from the sugar, finished .009 higher than the other batches) leaving the beer too sweet for my tastes. In a future sugar experiment I am planning on trying other methods for making caramelized syrups at home.

 

[Daze]

interesting read. I have to wonder if his caramel being made from corn syrup had anything to do with the higher FG. It may not have, I really don't know, just curious.

 

[jkoegel]

I can foresee some experimentation in my future.
If I get time I think I will make up some small batches of caramelized sugar at different temperatures ranging from 320 to 370 and run some fermentation tests.