Question about Lallemand Munich Classic (do you always get intense banana?)

[user 336313]

Hey all,

I've been brewing a few hefeweizens with Lallemand Munich. The banana is very strong with all of them. They all had 50% wheat and all of them were done with a step-mash starting with twenty minutes at 113 F.

Now I'm planning on doing a beer with a base of Munich malts and only 20% (roasted) wheat. Mashing in at 150 F. But I think I could do with a little less banana on this one.

My question is: does this yeast produce lots of banana regardless of malt types and mash temps? Or is it a result of lots of wheat + 113F mash rest + yeast?

Thanks!

 

[thehaze]

Hello there! I've usd Munich Classic a few times and it's a great yeast. I do get banana, but not as much as I would want to ( definitely a subjective feeling, as different individuals will have different taste ). Certainly something to do with the way I brewed and packaged. Nonetheless, warm fermentation does increase ester production, which is the " banana " in this case. You could try to ferment colder and hold the temp. for a few days and then slowly increase. From experience, Munich Classic will finish fermenting in max. 48 hours with the proper wort and fermentation conditions/temperature. Cheers!

 

[user 336313]

Hello there! I've usd Munich Classic a few times and it's a great yeast. I do get banana, but not as much as I would want to ( definitely a subjective feeling, as different individuals will have different taste ). Certainly something to do with the way I brewed and packaged. Nonetheless, warm fermentation does increase ester production, which is the " banana " in this case. You could try to ferment colder and hold the temp. for a few days and then slowly increase. From experience, Munich Classic will finish fermenting in max. 48 hours with the proper wort and fermentation conditions/temperature. Cheers!

Yes, fermenting cooler was in my mind too. Thanks!

 

[Miraculix]

This will answer all of your questions, even those that you don't know that you have!

https://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

 

[user 336313]

This will answer all of your questions, even those that you don't know that you have!

https://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

Gracias!

 

[Jag75]

This will answer all of your questions, even those that you don't know that you have!

https://braumagazin.de/article/brewing-bavarian-weissbier-all-you-ever-wanted-to-know/

That's a great read . Never though about how the OG can determine esters* . Genius to have a high OG , then dilute with soft water to get that lower abv with a higher Og .

 

[Miraculix]

That's a great read . Never though about how the OG can determine phenols . Genius to have a high OG , then dilute with soft water to get that lower abv with a higher Og .

Same thing applies to ales where you want lots of esters!

 

[Jag75]

Same thing applies to ales where you want lots of esters!

I'm sorry , I meant esters lol. I love the German style . My bucket list is to spend time in Germany for the fest .

 

[Miraculix]

I'm sorry , I meant esters lol. I love the German style . My bucket list is to spend time in Germany for the fest .

Yeah well ... Remove that from your bucket list. If you want to see Germany, go somewhere else or at least come at another time. What to you see there at that time is just rubbish and tourists.

 

[Jag75]

Yeah well ... Remove that from your bucket list. If you want to see Germany, go somewhere else or at least come at another time. What to you see there at that time is just rubbish and tourists.

No kidding ? What's the best time to visit ?

 

[Bassman2003]

The Fest' is more about lager beer and consuming a lot of it. The fest beers are a little stronger lager beers. You can find other beers now as things seemingly have expanded. The first time I went there I could not find a weisse beer. The 2nd time there was a wine tent! But it is crowded and expensive etc...

Best time to visit is probably any other time than the Oktoberfest unless you are specifically wanting to go to the Oktoberfest. Munich has all of the big brands that have restaurants where you can get the fresh beer. That is a much more calm atmosphere. But it is down to what you are after.

 

[day_trippr]

No kidding ? What's the best time to visit ?

I was going to make the same comment. I've been in the Munich area a few times including the beginning of Oktoberfest and the best time to be there was late summer...

Cheers!

 

[Miraculix]

No kidding ? What's the best time to visit ?

I'd say it depends on what you want to see. Do you want to see Bavaria or do you want to see Germany? Going to the Oktoberfest because you want to see and experience Germany is like going to New Orleans for Mardi Gras because you want to experience America.

If you want to see Germany, make multiple stops. It all depends on what you are after.. so what are you after?

 

[Jag75]

I wanted to experience oktoberfest , but also see parts of Germany. I'd love to try different beers from different areas . I don't want my only experience in Germany to be in a oktoberfest tent .

 

[Miraculix]

I wanted to experience oktoberfest , but also see parts of Germany. I'd love to try different beers from different areas . I don't want my only experience in Germany to be in a oktoberfest tent .

Then go one day there, get really really wasted (that is what it is all about) and plan a nice trip from there on!

 

[Jag75]

Then go one day there, get really really wasted (that is what it is all about) and plan a nice trip from there on!

Yeah that sounds like a plan , except for the get wasted part.

 

[day_trippr]

If in the Munich area you simply must visit Kloster Andechs and enjoy simple but hearty food and a fabulous collection of beers with a crowd of people just there for the fun of it all. Good time guaranteed

Cheers!

 

[Cayuga-Brewer]

A less touristy festival in Munich is the Strong Bier Festival. Definitely more 'German' and a lot of fun.

 

[Miraculix]

Also spend some time outside of Munich and visit some of these smaller village restaurants/pubs. That's where you can find the best food ever.

For example "Zum lustigen Hirsch" in Akams. If you are already there, stay a few days in the Allgäu area. Beautiful area!

Completely different direction, visit the "Sächsische Schweiz" and in it the "Elbsandsteingebirge". Add some beer-relevant stops, maybe also Goslar or Lüneburg, or visit some wine areas like Boppard and then make your way up to Hamburg and Kiel and visit the harbours.

 

[RJB.]

Fermentation temperature plays a huge role in the balance of banana/clove in the finished beer when using this yeast. Fermented at 59-60f it was a clove bomb - no banana whatsoever and everybody thought I spiced it with actual cloves. Fermented at 64-65f there was a good balance of clove to banana but not nearly enough banana in my opinion. Fermented at 68-69f was the sweet spot for me with great amounts of banana and just enough clove. Lastly, fermented with no temperature control (77f+) it was a banana bomb with no clove whatsoever but was still “clean” with no fusel alcohols. I’ve also found even a short (5min) ferulic acid rest noticeably bumps up the clove phenolics. After all my trial batches my personal opinion on Munich Classic is that it’s a great option for a dry Hefe yeast but is not what I’m after in my Hefe’s because it throws off a red apple ester that I’m not fond of (Lallemand even lists this on their aroma/flavor wheel for the yeast). People throw around that it’s the dry version of the Weihenstephan strain but that’s not completely true - it is Doemens Strain 479 which is a descendent of the Weihenstephan strain but not a 1:1 comparison.

From Doemens:
“Strain 476 The strain 476 produces a balanced flavour profile with notes of clove and banana. The produced beers show the balanced and typical aromatic taste of Bavarian wheat beers. Due to it’s good fermentation properties (high yeast growth and fermentation) these strain is the most frequently used bavarian wheat beer strain. Other yeast collections provide it under a different name.”

“Strain 479 This is a breed of strain 476. It has similar fermentation properties with a higher ester production which pronounces the fruity flavour of the beer.”

 

[user 336313]

Fermentation temperature plays a huge role in the balance of banana/clove in the finished beer when using this yeast. Fermented at 59-60f it was a clove bomb - no banana whatsoever and everybody thought I spiced it with actual cloves. Fermented at 64-65f there was a good balance of clove to banana but not nearly enough banana in my opinion. Fermented at 68-69f was the sweet spot for me with great amounts of banana and just enough clove. Lastly, fermented with no temperature control (77f+) it was a banana bomb with no clove whatsoever but was still “clean” with no fusel alcohols. I’ve also found even a short (5min) ferulic acid rest noticeably bumps up the clove phenolics. After all my trial batches my personal opinion on Munich Classic is that it’s a great option for a dry Hefe yeast but is not what I’m after in my Hefe’s because it throws off a red apple ester that I’m not fond of (Lallemand even lists this on their aroma/flavor wheel for the yeast). People throw around that it’s the dry version of the Weihenstephan strain but that’s not completely true - it is Doemens Strain 479 which is a descendent of the Weihenstephan strain but not a 1:1 comparison.

From Doemens:
“Strain 476 The strain 476 produces a balanced flavour profile with notes of clove and banana. The produced beers show the balanced and typical aromatic taste of Bavarian wheat beers. Due to it’s good fermentation properties (high yeast growth and fermentation) these strain is the most frequently used bavarian wheat beer strain. Other yeast collections provide it under a different name.”

“Strain 479 This is a breed of strain 476. It has similar fermentation properties with a higher ester production which pronounces the fruity flavour of the beer.”

Great info. Thanks.

However I fermented at 67F and got crazy banana, no clove. So I will be be fermenting cooler next time.

 

[RJB.]

Great info. Thanks.

However I fermented at 67F and got crazy banana, no clove. So I will be be fermenting cooler next time.

Yes by all means ferment cooler if you’re getting too much banana. Although I do find it odd you didn’t get any clove considering you even included a 20min ferulic acid rest. I will say, as thehaze touched on, people have varying levels of sensitivity to the banana ester (isoamyle acetate) so you may be in the camp of being hyper sensitive to it and that hypersensitivity could have masked the other aromas in the beer like the clove. Did anyone else try the beer and detect any clove?

 

[user 336313]

Yes by all means ferment cooler if you’re getting too much banana. Although I do find it odd you didn’t get any clove considering you even included a 20min ferulic acid rest. I will say, as thehaze touched on, people have varying levels of sensitivity to the banana ester (isoamyle acetate) so you may be in the camp of being hyper sensitive to it and that hypersensitivity could have masked the other aromas in the beer like the clove. Did anyone else try the beer and detect any clove?

No reports of clove! But I´m gonna ask more people about it.

 

[AlexKay]

For a totally different approach, I’ve tried fermenting with Bananza and using actual cloves in a hop stand. I called it a Hefauxweizen.

 

[beersk]

No reports of clove! But I´m gonna ask more people about it.

This really surprises me too considering you did the ferulic acid rest. That's the key. Fermenting cooler seems a good start and keep that 113F rest. Paulaner Hefeweizen is a good example of a hefe with good clove. Weihenstephaner has a more prominent banana ester. Both are excellent beers.

 

[Rfox2014]

Hello there! I've usd Munich Classic a few times and it's a great yeast. I do get banana, but not as much as I would want to ( definitely a subjective feeling, as different individuals will have different taste ). Certainly something to do with the way I brewed and packaged. Nonetheless, warm fermentation does increase ester production, which is the " banana " in this case. You could try to ferment colder and hold the temp. for a few days and then slowly increase. From experience, Munich Classic will finish fermenting in max. 48 hours with the proper wort and fermentation conditions/temperature. Cheers!

Came here looking for this. I used it for the first time this week. I did a standard pitch rate at about 71f to start and it finished in 2.5 days