Question about 240v GFCI protection circuit

[Thielios]

Hello all, this is my first post. I appreciate any feedback/help you can give.

I have a 5500 watt element so I decided to wire up a GFCI protected circuit to protect myself in the unlikely event something goes wrong.

I purchased Twist lock receptacles as well as all the wiring. I purchased 10 gauge wire.

My question is about the wiring of the GFCI.

I had an electrician friend that came over to assist in my setup since I am not as familiar with 240 as I am 120.

We hooked up a junction box with the 3 prong receptacle.

In the main Circuit Panel we mounted the 30 amp GFCI breaker. Hooked up the 2 hots. My friend advised hooking up the ground to the load nuetral on the GFCI to detect if something is shorting to ground. When we flipped the circuit on it immediatly tripped.

He suggested I may need an isolated ground receptacle so the GFCI breaker doesn't trip. I hooked up the isolated ground receptacle and indeed it doesn't trip the breaker.

My question: Is this safe. My gut instinct tells me No.

My solution would be to Replace the isolated ground receptacle with the original standard 3 prong recetacle. At the GFCI I was going to just hook up the 2 hots with the pigtail connected to the neutral bar. The grounding wire could then be attached to ground.

In looking up the wiring diagram of the GFCI it looks as though the neutral is not even required in a 2 pole setup.

Does this thinking sound accurate to everyone? Or what am I missing.

I am assuming putting the ground in the load neutral of the GFCI is not the correct way to do it. He was a licensed electrician years back so I try not to question him when he tells me it will work that way which is why I am on here now getting some tertiary opinions.

Thanks all. I look forward to helping when I can.

 

[itsnotrequired]

sounds like you have two hots and a ground wired to your receptacle. no problem there but recognize you won't be able to have any 120V loads, unless you put in a transformer. you do not need a neutral at the receptacle for the gfci to function properly. the neutral pigtail gets hooked up to the neutral bar in your load center (panelboard). if the panel with the 30 amp gfci breaker is your service panel (main panel), your neutral bar will be bonded to the ground bar. if the panel with the 30 amp gfci breaker is a subpanel (downstream if the main panel), the neutral bar will be isolated from the ground bar. do not attach the gfci pigtail to the ground bar, only to the neutral. neutral and ground should only be tied together at your main panel.

 

[joutlaw]

sounds like you have two hots and a ground wired to your receptacle. no problem there but recognize you won't be able to have any 120V loads, unless you put in a transformer. you do not need a neutral at the receptacle for the gfci to function properly. the neutral pigtail gets hooked up to the neutral bar in your load center (panelboard). if the panel with the 30 amp gfci breaker is your service panel (main panel), your neutral bar will be bonded to the ground bar. if the panel with the 30 amp gfci breaker is a subpanel (downstream if the main panel), the neutral bar will be isolated from the ground bar. do not attach the gfci pigtail to the ground bar, only to the neutral. neutral and ground should only be tied together at your main panel.

Quite serendipitous that this showed up. I attempted to hook up a Eaton 50 AMP spa panel this weekend. I got #6-3 wire and realized my fault when we attempted to hook up the spa panel which calls for a neutral.

Essentially my setup is the following:
70A double pole breaker feeding from my main panel to a sub panel outside. This sub panel feeds A/C unit with heat pump for a bonus room that is seldom used. The sub panel has 15A and 30A double pole breaker. There is a very thick gauge aluminum SER run from my main panel to the sub panel. It's neutral connected to the ground bar.

We ran #6-3 to the sub panel to my garage through conduit. We tied into the bus for the two hot legs and ground.

Should I run an additional neutral wire through my conduit and separate the neutral from the ground bar?

Or just bypass the neutral?

 

[cilestiok]

What is the purpose of this element? Is it controlled by a device such as a PID or are you manually switching it? Without understanding what types of loads and how many you're putting on the circuit it's hard to determine what kind of protection you and your wiring need.

 

[joutlaw]

I have a hosehead controller with a 5500 watt element. I will add another hot pod that I can use between my HLT and BK eventually. Right now my setup is RIMS/propane hybrid.

This panel will never require 120V. The hosehead has a dedicated 120V circuit that is plugged to a separate 120V outlet.

 

[xico]

Hey there, I found my landlord had a 40 amp GFCI breaker for a hot tub years back. It's far from my brew spot so I intend to purchase a 75' spool of 10/4 outdoor cable (matching the gauge with the given cable).

I have never worked with this amount of electricity before so I wanted to ask a few questions before I get started.

Here is the hardware I'm working with on this breaker:

Brewha Medium brew-in-a-conical
240V 30 amp power control
120v chugger pump
120v electric temperature control
5500 ulwd heating element

First question:
If the breaker is rated to 40 amp, not 30 like the system, will the GFCI system not trip if there is an accident?

Does my 14-30 receptacle I will put on the end of the cable need to be rated to 40 amp?

Should I run line directly from the breaker or use the cable that is available where a hot tub control box used to be? I supplied photos for each (sorry about the rotated photo). I checked the output off the live lines and it's putting out 220. I'd rather not mess with the breaker box if I can help it. It is code inspected and I'm not familiar with the process.

What is the safest way to connect two large gauge cables so that there is simply no way to connect different lines? A friend mentioned gel cap connectors but I wanted to get feedback from you all.

What other things can I do to overbuild for safety? My lady is a brewer too and I want to be sure it's safe. Should I get insulated staples and keep the cable off the ground?

Thanks again y'all, I always learn so much from your input!

 

[cilestiok]

I've never saw a thread get hijacked so many times in so few posts.

 

[joutlaw]

I've never saw a thread get hijacked so many times in so few posts.

My bad. Sorry OP. I just read the thread and seemed like we are facing a very similar issue.

 

[xico]

I've never saw a thread get hijacked so many times in so few posts.

When people add new threads without finding previous discussions it's spamming.

When people use the search system and find places where folk are discussing wiring concerns for the same kind of breaker, it's hijacking?

When a thread is made and called "Question about 240v GFCI protection circuit" people shouldn't get fussy about others adding questions about 240v GFCI protection circuits.

 

[cilestiok]

When people add new threads without finding previous discussions it's spamming.



When people use the search system and find places where folk are discussing wiring concerns for the same kind of breaker, it's hijacking?



When a thread is made and called "Question about 240v GFCI protection circuit" people shouldn't get fussy about others adding questions about 240v GFCI protection circuits.

He never even had the chance to have his questions answered. And I find it hard to believe that all three users situations are identical. Electrical systems are not "one size fits all". The solution to one persons problem could create a failure situation, or even worse, a hazard in another persons system.

My comment was not to attack the accused "hijackers" but only to remind everyone to be respectful toward the OP's question and allow him to be answered first so that the thread doesn't get muddied with crossed information. For example, I asked for details about the OP's system and instead got details about another users system. So I am still unable to help the OP.

 

[xico]

A better choice of words other than loaded ones like hijacker would get your thoughts across without an accusatory tone. The OP and I are both trying to understand the trip mechanisms and thresholds of a 240v GFCI breaker.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts for the OP and am eager to learn from it.

 

[Thielios]

Not a problem doods! I hijack all the time! I got the answers I needed so hijack away.

 

[Thielios]

Its all good everyone. I appreciate the support. I dont mind others jumping in with other concerns about a 240 GFCI circuit. It is nice to understand all the different setups involved so I gain a better understanding of electricity in general. A nice learning experience.

 

[itsnotrequired]

Quite serendipitous that this showed up. I attempted to hook up a Eaton 50 AMP spa panel this weekend. I got #6-3 wire and realized my fault when we attempted to hook up the spa panel which calls for a neutral.

Essentially my setup is the following:
70A double pole breaker feeding from my main panel to a sub panel outside. This sub panel feeds A/C unit with heat pump for a bonus room that is seldom used. The sub panel has 15A and 30A double pole breaker. There is a very thick gauge aluminum SER run from my main panel to the sub panel. It's neutral connected to the ground bar.

We ran #6-3 to the sub panel to my garage through conduit. We tied into the bus for the two hot legs and ground.

Should I run an additional neutral wire through my conduit and separate the neutral from the ground bar?

Or just bypass the neutral?

the neutral and ground bars should only be bonded together at your main panel. any downstream sub panels, spa panels, receptacles, etc. all require separate neutrals and grounds.

regarding the spa panel, some gfci units do not need a neutral to operate while others do. this doesn't mean you need a neutral from the spa panel to the receptacle but you may need it at the spa panel for proper gfci operation. if the conduit is already there and it isn't difficult to run a new conductor, i would recommend getting a neutral out to the spa panel.

 

[itsnotrequired]

Hey there, I found my landlord had a 40 amp GFCI breaker for a hot tub years back. It's far from my brew spot so I intend to purchase a 75' spool of 10/4 outdoor cable (matching the gauge with the given cable).

I have never worked with this amount of electricity before so I wanted to ask a few questions before I get started.

Here is the hardware I'm working with on this breaker:

Brewha Medium brew-in-a-conical
240V 30 amp power control
120v chugger pump
120v electric temperature control
5500 ulwd heating element

First question:
If the breaker is rated to 40 amp, not 30 like the system, will the GFCI system not trip if there is an accident?

Does my 14-30 receptacle I will put on the end of the cable need to be rated to 40 amp?

Should I run line directly from the breaker or use the cable that is available where a hot tub control box used to be? I supplied photos for each (sorry about the rotated photo). I checked the output off the live lines and it's putting out 220. I'd rather not mess with the breaker box if I can help it. It is code inspected and I'm not familiar with the process.

What is the safest way to connect two large gauge cables so that there is simply no way to connect different lines? A friend mentioned gel cap connectors but I wanted to get feedback from you all.

What other things can I do to overbuild for safety? My lady is a brewer too and I want to be sure it's safe. Should I get insulated staples and keep the cable off the ground?

Thanks again y'all, I always learn so much from your input!

wow, lots of stuff going on here. 10/4 cable will not work with the existing breakers. 40 amp breakers will require #8 awg conductors. if you want to use that 10/4, you will need to replace the 40 amp breaker in the panel with a 30 amp breaker. or install a 30 amp breaker in the spa panel (would not need to be gfci rated) and run 10/4 from there.

not sure what you mean when asking 'What is the safest way to connect two large gauge cables so that there is simply no way to connect different lines?' are you asking about wire nuts?

you mention outdoor cable, are you looking to simply lay this on the ground outdoors? not only is that a code violation but a recipe for disaster.

 

[joutlaw]

the neutral and ground bars should only be bonded together at your main panel. any downstream sub panels, spa panels, receptacles, etc. all require separate neutrals and grounds.

regarding the spa panel, some gfci units do not need a neutral to operate while others do. this doesn't mean you need a neutral from the spa panel to the receptacle but you may need it at the spa panel for proper gfci operation. if the conduit is already there and it isn't difficult to run a new conductor, i would recommend getting a neutral out to the spa panel.

Appreciate your reply and insight.

The SER heavy gauge aluminum wire going from my main panel to my sub panel does have 2 hot legs, neutral, and bare ground. The neutral and ground are connected to shared bar/bus at the sub panel.

My thought was to take the neutral off that shared bus/bar at the sub panel, run a neutral from my spa panel through the conduit to it, and tie those together. That would effectively give me a neutral run back to my main panel.

See this pic below for more detail:

 

[itsnotrequired]

sounds like a plan. it might be difficult to find a wire nut for that large neutral so you might want to consider buying a ground bar kit and mounting that to the panel interior, below the neutral bar:

these are cheap, less than $5. the ground bar would attach directly to the panel. disconnect the ground wires from the neutral bar and connect them to the new ground bar. the neutral bar in your photo would now be isolated from ground by the plastic frame it is attached to.

 

[joutlaw]

Should my neutral from the sub panel to the spa panel be 6 gauge copper like the 2 hot runs?

Really wish I would have gotten the #6-4 at this point.

 

[itsnotrequired]

i would go with a #6. i'd have to dig into the code book, you might be able to use a #8 but #6 would be a best-practice.

before pulling the neutral, try out your gfci and see if it operates without the pigtail attached to anything. some models can work without it, some can't. the test button will likely not work without the pigtail hooked up.

 

[joutlaw]

i would go with a #6. i'd have to dig into the code book, you might be able to use a #8 but #6 would be a best-practice.

before pulling the neutral, try out your gfci and see if it operates without the pigtail attached to anything. some models can work without it, some can't. the test button will likely not work without the pigtail hooked up.

I'll give it try and see. The instructions didn't have an option for 3 wire hookup, but I read on the internet where it could work.

I will likely use 6 gauge stranded rather than solid. My guess it that will be easier to fish through the conduit.

 

[xico]

wow, lots of stuff going on here. 10/4 cable will not work with the existing breakers. 40 amp breakers will require #8 awg conductors. if you want to use that 10/4, you will need to replace the 40 amp breaker in the panel with a 30 amp breaker. or install a 30 amp breaker in the spa panel (would not need to be gfci rated) and run 10/4 from there.

not sure what you mean when asking 'What is the safest way to connect two large gauge cables so that there is simply no way to connect different lines?' are you asking about wire nuts?

you mention outdoor cable, are you looking to simply lay this on the ground outdoors? not only is that a code violation but a recipe for disaster.

Wow, thank you, this is great to know! So a 30 amp breaker at the spa panel would not need to be GFCI because it is downstream of one? I have no problem wiring with 8 awg cabling, it is 10awg to the spa panel from the breaker box though.

So if I understand correctly, the 40 amp GFCI won't work for me even if I wired 8awg from it to my brewing unit, right? I had the cabling saved on a wishlist but I wanted to get someone's feedback before I bought.

Option 1 is to purchase a 30 amp GFCI breaker (73 dollars) and wire with 75' 10/4 cable (120).

Option 2 purchase a 30 amp breaker to go to the spa panel that isn't GFCI (15) and run 10/4 cable.

Option 3 purchase #8awg cable (200 dollars) and run from the existing 40 amp breaker to the nema 14-30 plug at the house. If the cable is the only hindrance to safety for a 30 amp system on a 40 amp breaker I suppose that'd be the best route to take.

And yes, I will take your and my friends advice and run the cable on the side of the building with insulated staples.

 

[itsnotrequired]

so that existing wiring from the main panel to the spa panel is #10? that is a big no-no. a 40 amp breaker needs #8 conductors. and looking closer at that spa panel photo, it appears to be set up for fuses, not a circuit breaker. do you have a part number on the panel?

best options would be to replace the 40 amp breaker with a 30 amp gfci breaker and run 10/4 from the spa panel to your receptacle. or run 8/4 from the 40 amp breaker all the way to the receptacle. not sure which install is easier. those two pole gfci breakers aren't cheap but neither is 8/4 cable. maybe you could sell the 40 amp breaker on ebay to offset the cost of a new 30 amp gfci breaker?

 

[passedpawn]

My friend advised hooking up the ground to the load nuetral on the GFCI to detect if something is shorting to ground.

You cannot connect earth ground to the protected side of the GFCI breaker. The three connections (L1/L2/N) are summed and better equal zero into the GFCI. If you connected earth ground to neutral, current will escape to gnd, the GFCI will detect that, and trip. It's doing its job. It's true that earth gnd and neutral are the same back at the breaker, but they cannot be connected after the GFCI.

Neutral on the GFCI protected equipment should NOT be connected to earth ground / green wire.

Earth ground (Green wire) should be connected to all exposed metal on your equipment for sure.

 

[xico]

so that existing wiring from the main panel to the spa panel is #10? that is a big no-no. a 40 amp breaker needs #8 conductors. and looking closer at that spa panel photo, it appears to be set up for fuses, not a circuit breaker. do you have a part number on the panel?

best options would be to replace the 40 amp breaker with a 30 amp gfci breaker and run 10/4 from the spa panel to your receptacle. or run 8/4 from the 40 amp breaker all the way to the receptacle. not sure which install is easier. those two pole gfci breakers aren't cheap but neither is 8/4 cable. maybe you could sell the 40 amp breaker on ebay to offset the cost of a new 30 amp gfci breaker?

The panel itself I think was sold along with the hot tub before the landlords put the place up for rent. If I can help it I'd rather minimize the the alterations to what is already present, unless for safety concerns. If I buy 8/4 cable it's an investment like the brew system and I will take that with when I leave. But can the existing breaker operate a 30 amp power controller downstream and run with the same GFCI protection?

If so, I'll run line from the breaker itself. If not, I'll pursue your second option which is to switch out the breaker.

 

[joutlaw]

I was able to get everything hooked up. I had 3/4" conduit already run, but I was not able to fish another 6 gauge wire through it even with a sweeping 90 degree joint. So I took the conduit apart in one section and removed all cabling going to my outdoor sub panel. I ran the 6 gauge through my spa panel through the conduit outside. then taped 3 existing wires with the new one and forced through the conduit section I removed. In the end, it was a pain but I got it done.

I ended up using a reducer connection to make my neutral connection. The aluminum SER was probably 2 gauge. It was a pain to deal with, but I removed the neutral from the ground bar outside, and then joined to the new 6 gauge neutral run. Redid all my connection, double checking my self and rejoined the conduit.

I made my connections inside a the spa panel with no problem. All I did was put the breaker in at this point, but have a 50 amp receptacle to wire in next. I flipped the 70 amp breaker that feeds the outdoor panel and all was well. I checked the spa panel for anything suspect and everything looked good. I did test the GFI and it worked as expected.

I suppose the next test will be after I wire in the receptacle and put some load on the circuit.

 

[xico]

Okay I've got the finances to buy a breaker and I wanted to double check that this one will replace the existing one.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000VYHU44/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

existing (sorry about the photo, i'm using a chromebook and the software is always a mess):

 

[itsnotrequired]

that model appears to look good but the best way to confirm is look at the nameplate of the panel itself, it will list every breaker model compatible with the panel. it will look something like below, should be on the inside of the door:

sometimes it doesn't list all the breakers but wit the model number of the load center, you can go to the manufacturer's website and get the info there.

fyi, i have a siemens load center and the label lists all the acceptable breakers.

 

[xico]

Thanks that's very helpful! I'll look at it. I'm an hour from a hardware store so I don't want to run back and forth.

 

[SpentBrains]

He never even had the chance to have his questions answered. And I find it hard to believe that all three users situations are identical. Electrical systems are not "one size fits all". The solution to one persons problem could create a failure situation, or even worse, a hazard in another persons system...

I know it's been a while since this thread opened, but you can add me in as a 4th. I found this thread searching for basically the exact same answers. I think the general situation is far more common than you might think; that being a garage or otherwise under supplied sub panel, that has now become the distribution point for lots of toys. My 60 amp garage panel is way under what I'd like, since I run a welder, a golf cart charger, a plasma cutter, a lathe, a milling machine and soon, a rolling 1 barrel prototype/pilot system brewery. Joined a couple of forums thinking I was so unique, only to find out that there are thousands of people doing almost the same thing.

As respectfully as I can get some reassurance without "hijacking"...I plan to run my hybrid HERMS system, one 5500w element (there will be two but only one at a time) and 2 pumps at a time maximum, plus any meters, LEDs, PIDs, SSRs ,or other low draw devices as part of the process. The Plan is a 30 amp GFCI protected 4 wire drop cord from the sub panel, that get's connected only while brewing. 4 wires will connect the breaker/panel to the all metal control box...I am thinking it's fine to just run a 3 pronged twist/lock short line from each element to where it plugs in on the brew stand, since the whole enchilada will be tied to the ground.

Thoughts?

 

[PeteNMA]

You only need two hots and a ground to your elements so three pin plugs are fine

 

[SpentBrains]

Thanks Pete. I've had elements short out in hot water tanks, but it's always been under the house or in the basement while I was asleep or at work. Trips the breaker and $15 later you're back up and running. Ive never seen and hope I never see the process while staring into an open top keggle. But I figured the grounded frame was enough.

 

[PeteNMA]

You should be using something like the Hot Pod to directly ground the pot and associated water. Either that or with a keggle just weld a bolt to the thing and tie it to ground that way. Don't rely on contact for grounding.

 

[SpentBrains]

Hot pod?

 

[PeteNMA]

https://www.brewhardware.com/category_s/1895.htm

 

[SpentBrains]

oh... well no... I'll weld up my own enclosure with a knockout and strain relief/ cord retention device....

I want to mount up an LED to each element that indicates when it's firing.