I read a post about a guy who found a missing carboy after 8 months and the beer was fine.
I would worry more about the immediate problem of the diacetyl.
- Eric
I would worry more about the immediate problem of the diacetyl.
- Eric
Diacetyl as a product of fermentation is more characteristic of ales than lagers. Diacetyl is produced early in the fermentation, and then most of it is reabsorbed by the yeast and reduced to flavourless compounds later on. Yeast strains differ markedly in their diacetyl reduction ability. Some ales and a few lagers (such as the famous Pilsner Urquell) contain perceptible amounts of diacetyl, but as a rule modern brewers consider it as a fault. This is because certain bacterial infections and other errors in brewing technique will increase diacetyl levels resulting in unacceptable beer aroma and flavour profile. This parameter thus serves as a quality check. However, it is important to remember that diacetyl flavour is a natural by-product of yeast fermentation, and in some beer styles it is an optional or even required flavour component in low amounts.
Maturation of beer flavour requires the presence of yeast as a catalyst. There are many methods of finishing that have the sole objective of prolonging the contact of beer with yeast after primary fermentation is completed. I want to emphasize that a diacetyl rest with most of the yeast lying at the bottom of the tank and not enough in suspension is of no use. Most lager breweries, especially those that use Weinhenstephan 308 or similar “diacetyl producing yeast’s” employ a long diacetyl rest, in order to minimize diacetyl in the finished beer.
Method 1
If a very cold primary fermentation was used it involves allowing the beer temperature to rise from the controlled primary fermentation temperature of about 10°C to 15-18°C when the primary fermentation is coming to an end. Normally, the time is determined by the attenuation of the beer. If, for example the wort starting gravity was 1050 and the expected terminal gravity is 1010, then the diacetyl rest would be commenced when the beer has attenuated to about SG 1023 when two-thirds of the total fermentable material in the wort has been consumed. The diacetyl rest normally lasts for 48-72 hours, until primary fermentation is over and secondary fermentation is under way. At this time the temperature is lowered when the more traditional method is followed, probably 1°C per day until the lagering temperature of 0-1°C is reached.
Method 2
If a warmer primary fermentation temperature was used for ale or lager the diacetyl rest involves either lowering the beer temperature 2 or 3°C at the end of primary fermentation or keeping it constant for up to 6 days. In lager yeast strains with low diacetyl production it is common practise nowadays to employ a short diacetyl rest followed by centrifuging to remove excess yeast and then crash cooling to 0°C. When brewing ales, that should have very low diacetyl levels especially German Ales like Alt and Kölsch, the implications are to not use highly flocculent yeast and to allow an extended primary fermentation, albeit at cooler temperatures until sufficiently low diacetyl levels are reached. Yeast that settles in the cone is still removed on a daily basis.
Bringing this one back to life for a minute. I've changed my process over the last year and a half to include a longer primary. Typically 3 - 4 weeks. Somehow I am still getting dinged in comps for Diacetyl. Should I leave the beers sit longer? Maybe it's a temp thing? What are the other options?
I honestly think that "hints of slight diacetyl" is the go to flaw that wanna be judges lean on to show they know something.
Bullsh!t.
I had two competitions 4 weeks apart...submitted the same beer...three judges in one and two in the other...one judge out of the five used the "slight diacetyl" argument to ding me. The beer went on to win 2nd in APA's in the one comp.
Ain't no way this beer had diacetyl. It was an ALE. Pitched on a huge cake. Fermented like crazy...sat at 68 degrees for four weeks...oh...and did I mention it took a silver amongst 24 other APA's?
I'm coming to the realization that a church basement full of slightly intoxicated EAC wanna-be's will always result in someone trying to show their stuff and make some comment just to hear themselves talk.
In other words...if you don't detect diacetyl and you're doing everything right...I say ferk em.
All in all if you know your beer is good screw them.
I recently attempted a Dreadnaught clone from "The Best of Brew Your Own" and it calls for fermentation with Wyeast 1968 English ESB yeast.
It's in bottles now, and it tastes pretty good, but there was definitely something "off" about it. I took it to my LHBS where they told me I had big diacetyl on it. I thought it might have been oxidized, but I'm sure it's diacetyl now, especially given Wyeast's admission of big diacetyl production: Wyeast Laboratories. London ESB Ale⢠1968
This problem is compounded by the yeast's high flocculation because the yeast falls out of suspension and hence isn't in contact with the beer long enough to get rid of the diacetyl present.
I brewed a second batch and transfered to secondary before I learned this stuff :cross:. Lesson learned: check out oddities of yeast strain used.
I honestly think that "hints of slight diacetyl" is the go to flaw that wanna be judges lean on to show they know something.
Bullsh!t.
I had two competitions 4 weeks apart...submitted the same beer...three judges in one and two in the other...one judge out of the five used the "slight diacetyl" argument to ding me. The beer went on to win 2nd in APA's in the one comp.
Ain't no way this beer had diacetyl. It was an ALE. Pitched on a huge cake. Fermented like crazy...sat at 68 degrees for four weeks...oh...and did I mention it took a silver amongst 24 other APA's?
I'm coming to the realization that a church basement full of slightly intoxicated EAC wanna-be's will always result in someone trying to show their stuff and make some comment just to hear themselves talk.
In other words...if you don't detect diacetyl and you're doing everything right...I say ferk em.
Diacetyl does seem to be the bogeyman of american homebrewing, in lots of english ales its not only present but highly desirable, at the right levels it dovetails beautifully with caramel and dark malts found in english ales.
The judges seem to be incapable of grasping this invariably labelling it as a flaw, maybe they shoud use their taste buds more and forget about what the guidelines say.
Diacetyl does seem to be the bogeyman of american homebrewing, in lots of english ales its not only present but highly desirable, at the right levels it dovetails beautifully with caramel and dark malts found in english ales.
I had a steam beer a couple of years ago that a judge said had diacetyl- leave it in primary longer, or something like that. Um, it was in primary four weeks, with a huge starter pitched, and then into secondary for lagering. There was not even a HINT of diacetyl. But, it did have a toasted quality with a warm undertone that he incorrectly identified as diacetyl, and a flaw.
Another thing to consider is that diacetyl isn't just a yeast fermentation byproduct, it can also be generated by Pediococcus that might be lingering in unflushed beer lines for those bottling from the keg.
Pediococcus throws diacetyl in spades.
I have noticed it big time in several bars where the only "decent" beer on tap was Killians. I have been to 4 different bars, two of them chains, where this was really noticeable. I agree about it being in bad tap lines, and I've always wondered if it comes out more in beers with more caramel/crytal malts.
So you skip the secondary completely? (which would give me a free 5g carboy). Any problems with getting sediment into the bottling process??
the first thing yeast does is reproduce. somehow, through the magic of life, it knows how many of them there are relative to how much food is available. Their darwinian response is to crowd out competition so if there is a ton of food (i.e. 5 gallons of wort) they will spend the first 8 to 12 hours just reproducing to the right ratio of Yeast to Sugar
Only then to they start to eat. The trouble for you the homebrewer is that the flavors they make reporducing aren't very good, aka butter amongst others... so if you "underpitch" they will need to really reproduce a ton in order to get to the point they are comfortable with but spending a lot of energy reproducing, they consequently produce a lot of diacetyl after they are done eating, but they will re-absorb a lot of the diacetyl. but the problem is, if your population is low, there won't be enough of them in the fermenter to re-absorb all the diacetyl they made. If that's the case, no amount of "clean up" time will make it go away. The easy solution is to just pitch more. The more that go in, the fewer generations they will need to build up to the proper population i.e. they make less diacytl in the first place, PLUS, you've got more of them to clean up so you win on both sides so you know you have a good batch
just do a small a starter, and make sure you don't contaminate it.
Good yeast + starter = guarenteed clean batch of beer
I honestly think that "hints of slight diacetyl" is the go to flaw that wanna be judges lean on to show they know something.
Bullsh!t.
I had two competitions 4 weeks apart...submitted the same beer...three judges in one and two in the other...one judge out of the five used the "slight diacetyl" argument to ding me. The beer went on to win 2nd in APA's in the one comp.
Ain't no way this beer had diacetyl. It was an ALE. Pitched on a huge cake. Fermented like crazy...sat at 68 degrees for four weeks...oh...and did I mention it took a silver amongst 24 other APA's?
I'm coming to the realization that a church basement full of slightly intoxicated EAC wanna-be's will always result in someone trying to show their stuff and make some comment just to hear themselves talk.
In other words...if you don't detect diacetyl and you're doing everything right...I say ferk em.
this is hilarious because in my signature beer I put half a stick of butter in the wort. i believe beer is liquid bread so why not have toast. it compliments the hop bitterness perfectly but that's just me
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