Pitching 2 strains in a Belgian Golden

[AlcheMania]

Looking to get majority of the flavor characteristics from lalbrew Abbaye, some of the character of Belle Saison, and the super dry FG of Belle Saison in a very simple (Pils+Sugar+Saaz) Belgian Golden Ale.
Thinking of just staggering the Pitch by 24 hrs so the Abbaye gets a head start on converting the sugars.
Ideas?
Predictions?

 

[shnth]

interested to hear how this turns out

 

[Northern_Brewer]

You might want to replace the Belle with WB-06, which appears to have come from Duvel. It's a weird yeast that's not good for much else, certainly not wheat beers as marketed, but this is its thing.

 

[AlcheMania]

You might want to replace the Belle with WB-06, which appears to have come from Duvel. It's a weird yeast that's not good for much else, certainly not wheat beers as marketed, but this is its thing.

Interesting choice. Looks like it has a very high attenuation as well, But...im not sure i want to add much of the banana bubblegum type flavors its known for on top of the abbaye fruity esters. Whereas the Saison is purported to add more pepper/clove. Now swapping the abbaye for the wb06 might be more of what im going for.

 

[MikeCo]

Your idea seems like it would work to me. Pitching the Abbaye first will get the character of that yeast, and the Belle Saison if pitched after the Abbaye has established the main ester profile would dry it out nicely. I think 24 hours might be too soon, especially if there is any lag time. I don't know when the right time is, but I would try to do it after the Abbaye is half to two thirds done, just using the Belle Saison to dry it out toward the end.

 

[sibelman]

Pardon my ignorance - do Belgian breweries use a multi-yeast strategy like this?

 

[MikeCo]

Not that I know of. From reading Brew Like a Monk, it seems most use a single house yeast.

 

[Civilian]

BLAM also talks about WLP575, which is a blend that lowers the fruit flavors and dries it out more.

 

[sibelman]

blend

OP takes this a step further: multiple yeast strains and sequenced pitches. Fascinating experiment. Seems like a great test would be to break the batch into multiple one gallon fermentations with differing yeasts or timings. That might be even more revealing than just a single batch.

 

[AlcheMania]

Your idea seems like it would work to me. Pitching the Abbaye first will get the character of that yeast, and the Belle Saison if pitched after the Abbaye has established the main ester profile would dry it out nicely. I think 24 hours might be too soon, especially if there is any lag time. I don't know when the right time is, but I would try to do it after the Abbaye is half to two thirds done, just using the Belle Saison to dry it out toward the end.

Hmmmmm.... i do want a touch of the the saison pepper character if possible. So a stagger of 24 or perhaps 36 at most made sense to me.

 

[AlcheMania]

Looking to get majority of the flavor characteristics from lalbrew Abbaye, some of the character of Belle Saison, and the super dry FG of Belle Saison in a very simple (Pils+Sugar+Saaz) Belgian Golden Ale.
Thinking of just staggering the Pitch by 24 hrs so the Abbaye gets a head start on converting the sugars.
Ideas?
Predictions?

Update: Brewed on Saturday

77% Pils
18% Sugar (end of boil)
5% Carapils

Water
Ca Mg Na Cl So4 HC03
49 4 17 59 91 0

158 F 60 Min Mash

Saaz 60 Min 20 IBU
Saaz 15 Min 7 IBU
Saaz Flameout 0.2 oz/gal

OG: 1.072

Pitched lalbrew abbaye @72 F
Set to 65F
Pitched Belle Saison @ 40 hrs this morning
Set to 66F
Will allow temp to ramp over next
5-7 days or so before step crash over 3 days n transfer.

 

[Deadalus]

Simplest way to consider this would be to take a graph of yeast population size over time and lag the second yeast curve in this case 40 hours. Start the second yeast at time=40 hours, a big shift to the right in time. There will be a very large difference in population size between yeast 1 and yeast 2. There are exponential growth rates involved. Suppose the number of yeast cells doubled every two hours and just consider a 24 hour period that is a population size 2^12=4096 times bigger than the second yeast. If yeast 1 maxes out before that then no room for yeast 2. Or suppost yeast 1 keeps doubling up to 40 hours, then yeast 1 is 2^20 times larger in population which is about 1 million times bigger.

A more manageable approach might be to proportion the two yeasts out in the beginning perhaps. Initial population size drives final population size. Time zero is the y intercept on the growth curve. If the growth rate curves were exactly the same for both yeasts (a simplistic assumption at best) the population sizes would stay at a fixed proportion. You'd want excellent models though for both yeasts and very fine controls of everything else in my opinion to be able to replicate your findings.

I suppose you could taste some discernible characteristics if say yeast 1 produced none of a flavor vs yeast 2 produces some distinct flavor. Just keep in mind yeast 1 is going to occupy the vast majority of the growing space given the hefty head start.

 

[AlcheMania]

Simplest way to consider this would be to take a graph of yeast population size over time and lag the second yeast curve in this case 40 hours. Start the second yeast at time=40 hours, a big shift to the right in time. There will be a very large difference in population size between yeast 1 and yeast 2. There are exponential growth rates involved. Suppose the number of yeast cells doubled every two hours and just consider a 24 hour period that is a population size 2^12=4096 times bigger than the second yeast. If yeast 1 maxes out before that then no room for yeast 2. Or suppost yeast 1 keeps doubling up to 40 hours, then yeast 1 is 2^20 times larger in population which is about 1 million times bigger.

A more manageable approach might be to proportion the two yeasts out in the beginning perhaps. Initial population size drives final population size. Time zero is the y intercept on the growth curve. If the growth rate curves were exactly the same for both yeasts (a simplistic assumption at best) the population sizes would stay at a fixed proportion. You'd want excellent models though for both yeasts and very fine controls of everything else in my opinion to be able to replicate your findings.

I suppose you could taste some discernible characteristics if say yeast 1 produced none of a flavor vs yeast 2 produces some distinct flavor. Just keep in mind yeast 1 is going to occupy the vast majority of the growing space given the hefty head start.

Thanks for the info. Chances of me measuring out yeast from a packet is slim to none . I pitched the second yeast when activity was just starting up. But reading into it a bit i see the log growth phase is just about over by that point. Next time ill try the second at bout 28 hrs and compare the results. Even if its just a dryer finish ill be happy this time round.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Simplest way to consider this would be to take a graph of yeast population size over time and lag the second yeast curve in this case 40 hours. Start the second yeast at time=40 hours, a big shift to the right in time. There will be a very large difference in population size between yeast 1 and yeast 2. There are exponential growth rates involved. Suppose the number of yeast cells doubled every two hours and just consider a 24 hour period that is a population size 2^12=4096 times bigger than the second yeast. If yeast 1 maxes out before that then no room for yeast 2. Or suppost yeast 1 keeps doubling up to 40 hours, then yeast 1 is 2^20 times larger in population which is about 1 million times bigger.

This fails the common-sense test. If you pitched 10g of dry yeast in your 5-gallon or 20-litre bucket and it grew 1-million-fold, you'd end up with 10 tonnes of yeast.

The yeast growth is limited by nutrients, they typically only manage a bit over 3 doublings for a ~10-fold growth in total.

 

[hiphoppotamuss]

Update: Brewed on Saturday

77% Pils
18% Sugar (end of boil)
5% Carapils

Water
Ca Mg Na Cl So4 HC03
49 4 17 59 91 0

158 F 60 Min Mash

Saaz 60 Min 20 IBU
Saaz 15 Min 7 IBU
Saaz Flameout 0.2 oz/gal

OG: 1.072

Pitched lalbrew abbaye @72 F
Set to 65F
Pitched Belle Saison @ 40 hrs this morning
Set to 66F
Will allow temp to ramp over next
5-7 days or so before step crash over 3 days n transfer.

For what it’s worth, last year brewed a Tripel with a nearly identical grain bill to yours. Pitched Belle Saison and MJ31 together at the start of fermentation ( attributed to pure laziness) Probably the best Belgian I’ve brewed. Didn’t last long. MJ31 is pretty strong on banana/ bubblegum though (which I enjoy ) I would definitely co-pitch again.
Hope your batch turns out great

 

[sibelman]

I've read here that the yeast influence on the character of the beer is established early in fermentation. If that is so, then a second strain should be added early if its character is to influence the resulting beer flavor.

By this logic, late yeast additions could increase attenuation - the dryness OP mentions - or help with bottle carbonation, but may have little other effect. Early vs late would be measured in hours.

However, these speculations should be tested, ideally with split batches.

 

[Deadalus]

This fails the common-sense test. If you pitched 10g of dry yeast in your 5-gallon or 20-litre bucket and it grew 1-million-fold, you'd end up with 10 tonnes of yeast.

The yeast growth is limited by nutrients, they typically only manage a bit over 3 doublings for a ~10-fold growth in total.

Yes there is of course an upper limit, the exponential growth will then approach an asymptote as far as the number of yeast cells. Growth functions are often s-shaped curves with the asymptote sometimes referred to as the carrying capacity. Here it is the batch size (unstated) which would limit growth. Also unstated is the size of the pitched yeast population, there is not guarentee that all of it is viable. Is my point that the first yeast population rapidly outpaces the second yeast population invalid?

This paper is looking at several yeasts that are not beer yeasts but does include WLP001. It is useful to demonstrate the growth curve shape I mentioned. Also, consider just the WLP001 curve. If I copy the curve shape and slide it 40 hours to the right, and call it WLP002 it will be clear that WLP001 dominates the space.

Next consider that your two yeasts are represented by any two of the curves below. Also, those curves are fit to point clouds which exhibit all of nature's variability. The gray areas around the curve might represent that but they are not mentioned anywhere in the figure. Using any two selected curves with shorter lag times may put one curve ahead or behind the other. Consider also that the initial pitch rate is going to slide the curves up and down, and we don't know what that initial pitch rate is exactly. And that's just two variables affecting the growth curves of two yeasts which may not have well described growth functions in the first place. The topper is that the experiment is only performed with a single rep which may be extrapolated on by the brewer.

I realize as well that there could also be interaction effects from having the two yeasts grown together. Their indvidual curves may be affected by that condition. There was however, a long lag time between pitching in this case, so I looked at it from the perspective that populaton sizes were very disparate.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...trains-in-7-P-wort-with-50-IBU_fig1_327090011

 

[AlcheMania]

For what it’s worth, last year brewed a Tripel with a nearly identical grain bill to yours. Pitched Belle Saison and MJ31 together at the start of fermentation ( attributed to pure laziness) Probably the best Belgian I’ve brewed. Didn’t last long. MJ31 is pretty strong on banana/ bubblegum though (which I enjoy ) I would definitely co-pitch again.
Hope your batch turns out great

Awesome! Fingers crossed!
Ferm update:
This morning @ approx 48 hrs post Saison pitch i noticed the smell from the spunding valve start to become pungent.
When i pitched the Saison i got only what i can describe as clean n pleasant ferm aromas from the Abbaye.
Now this evening the aromas are even more pungent with a sulfur note. Keep in mind post Saison pitch i allowed the temp to rise above 70 over 24 hrs so that may also be a contributing factor.
Currently @71.2 F
I believe mashing fairly high (158) left more long chain carbs for the Saison to chew on and thrive despite the delayed start.

 

[AlcheMania]

Awesome! Fingers crossed!
Ferm update:
This morning @ approx 48 hrs post Saison pitch i noticed the smell from the spunding valve start to become pungent.
When i pitched the Saison i got only what i can describe as clean n pleasant ferm aromas from the Abbaye.
Now this evening the aromas are even more pungent with a sulfur note. Keep in mind post Saison pitch i allowed the temp to rise above 70 over 24 hrs so that may also be a contributing factor.
Currently @71.2 F
I believe mashing fairly high (158) left more long chain carbs for the Saison to chew on and thrive despite the delayed start.

Hit 1.005 gravity
Aroma is yeast, sulfur, spice, soft banana/bubblegum esters mostly buried still.
Flavor is malty sweet n yeasty.
Still a ways to go. Holding temp at 72F
Starting 3 day step crash in 72hrs
Planning 2 month condition