Belgian liquid vs dry Yeast

[Jhedrick83]

Simple question, does anyone have much experience using both Lallemand Abbaye and White Labs 530/550/500 for Belgian Dubbels/Tripels/Quads? Thoughts? Is it close? Flavor differences? Attenuation differences? Change your fermentation temp schedule?


I’ve always use that white labs liquids but my brewing habits mean brew days are sometimes unscheduled. Debating the merits of a small frozen yeast bank vs. dry yeast.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

As I mentioned in the other thread...

WLP530 (Westmalle) has been my goto Trappist strain for the past few years. I have used it in a few different styles including several Dubbels and a couple Quads. I used WY3787 in a few batches, but I felt I got more character out of WLP530. I made a few beers with WLP500 (Chimay) and felt that it pushed too much cherry character for my preferences.

My only experience so far with Lallemand Abbaye is a Belgian Blond that I split with WB-06. I thought the Abbaye version was a wonderful beer. I fermented that one a bit cooler to try and keep the esters inline with what I expect from a Belgian Blond. I want do brew a batch fermented a bit warmer, and I hope to fit in a batch that I split with WLP530 and Abbaye. (I did not think the WB-06 character fit with the Belgian Blond style. It had a bit of a tart apple character. WB-06 might be a better fit for a Wit beer when fermented warmer.)

I made a Tripel that I thought was quite nice with M31 Tripel Ale (might be the same strain as BE-134). I hope to try out some additional dry yeasts. I have packs of T-58, and Mangrove Jack's M41 Belgian Ale & M47 Belgian Abbey. (M41 = BE-256? M47 = WB-06?).

 

[mashpaddled]

Simple question, does anyone have much experience using both Lallemand Abbaye and White Labs 530/550/500 for Belgian Dubbels/Tripels/Quads? Thoughts? Is it close? Flavor differences? Attenuation differences? Change your fermentation temp schedule?


I’ve always use that white labs liquids but my brewing habits mean brew days are sometimes unscheduled. Debating the merits of a small frozen yeast bank vs. dry yeast.

I used Abbaye on my very first beer ever, which was too long ago and brewed with too much inexperience to tell you how it compares to anything else.

You can maintain a frozen yeast bank but yeast will hold up in a mason jar in the fridge as long as you feed periodically. I sometimes feed as infrequently as twice a year with no problem. That still needs to be built up into a starter like a frozen slant but if you don't have chest freezer space, it's another option for you.

 

[z-bob]

I used T-58 in a summer wheat beer a couple of years ago. It made a good beer without temperature control. I don't know how "Belgian" it was.

 

[AlexKay]

I really like Abbaye. My understanding is that it's the Chimay strain, so comparable to WY1214 and WL500. I haven't done a side-by-side, but sequential brews with 1214 and Abbaye struck me as fairly similar (and good!)

T58 is too expressive for my tastes.

Oh, and don't forget Trappist singles, too. The bigger beers get all the love...

 

[z-bob]

T58 is too expressive for my tastes.

??? T-58 is one of the cheapest yeasts there is. (at least it was a year ago) Do you mean it's overpriced for what it is? Or did the price go way up when I wasn't looking.

 

[balrog]

??? T-58 is one of the cheapest yeasts there is. (at least it was a year ago) Do you mean it's overpriced for what it is? Or did the price go way up when I wasn't looking.

Too many esters, not cost. Reread that again, you'll see it.

 

[mashpaddled]

Too many esters, not cost. Reread that again, you'll see it.

Maybe he meant expre$$ive

 

[Jhedrick83]

Yeah I’m not a fan of super “Banana-ey” beers. I may have to get my hands on some Abbaye and try it in a brewing comparison to a Patersbier I did with 530 that I still have around. The simpler Patersbier probably makes an easier comparison.

 

[superiorsat]

WLP530 (Westmalle) has been my goto Trappist strain for the past few years. I have used it in a few different styles including several Dubbels and a couple Quads. I used WY3787 in a few batches, but I felt I got more character out of WLP530

Could you describe in detail or the best you can the flavor profile differences you see between these 2 strains. I've been big on 3787 but it is tough getting the the right temp and stress on the yeast to get the juicy character I'm looking for. I've been chasing one perfect batch from years ago. Think I had the perfect storm of shorted it on oxygen because my tank ran out after like 15 seconds, typically under pitch for stress and finish off with US-05 and like a dumb ass I didn't notate the fermentation temp schedule. It has been making delicious Tripel's but the elusive one I have not made since. Home brew shop was out of 3787 recently and talked me into trying WY1388 Belgian Strong. Not that it didn't make a tasty beer but it was not remotely what I expected and I didn't recognize the flavor as being very Belgian'y IMO or at least what I consider the Belgian flavor to be. They say that yeast quits early and they weren't kidding 1.086 SG it quit at 1.027 had to finish it off with US-05 (1.013) which I usually do anyway with the 3787. If I had to look in a dictionary for the Belgian flavor that is closest to what I'm wanting it would probably be Leffe. Juicy esters with the slightest almost undetectable note of banana and not a fan if it gets peppery/spicy enough to detract from the juiciness.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Could you describe in detail or the best you can the flavor profile differences you see between these 2 strains. I've been big on 3787 but it is tough getting the the right temp and stress on the yeast to get the juicy character I'm looking for.

I might have just been me and my fermentation schedule at the time. In theory, these are the same yeast. Also, I think I like more yeast character in my Belgians than some do.

Maybe 3 years ago I made a very nice Dubbel with WLP530. A little while later I picked up a pack of WY3787 that I harvested reused for 3 batches: something like a Single, Belgian Pale Ale and Dubbel. All 3 batches just came out a bit plain. A guy at my homebrew club said the Dubbel tasted like a nice English Mild. I recall thinking that the Single was more like a flavorful Pilsner that what I was going for.

I have since starting making sure I ramp temperatures up to at least 74F during the first few days of active fermentation. I specifically recall for the Dubbel that I was fermenting at ambient temps (was between working temp chambers) and the beer never pushed itself above around 66F. I have had good luck with WLP530 pitching at 68F and letting it rise to 74F to 76F during fermentation. If the beer is not pushing itself to those temps, I will add some heat.

With my one batch with Lallemand Abbaye, I kept temps in the upper 60F range as I don't think a Belgian Blond is supposed to be extremely estery (it is a hard beer to find examples of). I am curious how Abbaye will do fermented a bit warmer, or how it compares to WLP500.

 

[dmtaylor]

Could you describe in detail or the best you can the flavor profile differences you see between these 2 strains. I've been big on 3787 but it is tough getting the the right temp and stress on the yeast to get the juicy character I'm looking for. I've been chasing one perfect batch from years ago. Think I had the perfect storm of shorted it on oxygen because my tank ran out after like 15 seconds, typically under pitch for stress and finish off with US-05 and like a dumb ass I didn't notate the fermentation temp schedule. It has been making delicious Tripel's but the elusive one I have not made since. Home brew shop was out of 3787 recently and talked me into trying WY1388 Belgian Strong. Not that it didn't make a tasty beer but I was not remotely what I expected and I didn't recognize the flavor as being very Belgian'y IMO or at least what I consider the Belgian flavor to be. They say that yeast quits early and they weren't kidding 1.086 SG it quit at 1.027 had to finish it off with US-05 (1.013) which I usually do anyway with the 3787. If I had to look in a dictionary for the Belgian flavor that is closest to what I'm wanting it would probably be Leffe. Juicy esters with the slightest almost undetectable note of banana and not a fan if it gets peppery/spicy enough to detract from the juiciness.

Sounds familiar... I too have been chasing a past batch, but mine was with WLP530. It scored a 42 in competition. I haven't been able to duplicate it since then, with either WLP530 or 3787, or any other Belgian yeast for that matter. Some of my finest batches I think were the ones where I underpitched significantly, before I knew any better. I do recall the original WLP530 batch (the high scoring one) being fermented in mid 60s to start, which then stalled, so I had to warm it up AND I added yeast energizer, which got it moving again. Turned out that while carbonation was perfect at the competition, a few weeks later my bottles were all gushers! So it will continue fermenting, just veeerrry sloooowly. Patience is a virtue with these yeasts. I don't know if warming it up or adding nutrient or any of that was actually very important. I think just being super patient and giving the yeast a full month to ferment, or whatever it wants, is the key to a well attenuated Belgian ale... even if the flavors are great, and it stalls, after the first ~week. But for the best flavors.... stress seems to be a thing with these yeasts. I still will aerate the wort, but pitch rate is something I'd like to run a lot more experiments on. I don't recall specifics about flavor differences between the two strains, but in my experience, WLP530 was the one that really shined for me... ONE time.

 

[superiorsat]

I have since starting making sure I ramp temperatures up to at least 74F during the first few days of active fermentation.

pitching at 68F and letting it rise to 74F to 76F during fermentation.

Same.

But for the best flavors.... stress seems to be a thing with these yeasts.

Agreed.
I actually had a split batch scenario on my chaser batch. 6 gallons was mine and 6 gallons was for my neighbor. His was the batch where I ran short on oxygen and mine had a full dose of oxygen both were under pitched with 3787 but had 05 in from the get go so maybe the competition caused some stress also. They fermented in the same fridge at the same temp which I didn't keep track of for some reason, but pretty sure I was letting them get into the mid 70"s at that time. I also was co-pitching the US-05 right at the start. I had changed that up after a batch got away on me to 78/80 degrees and pretty sure the US-05 threw a bubble gum flavor for getting so Hot. Then for a year or so I pitched the US-05 after all my temp ramping in the beginning was over as not to get the bubble gum thing again. One of the most bland batches I ever got was used 2 packs of 3787 and did a huge starter so I had plenty of yeast and I gave it a decent amount of oxygen but no US-05. Just throwing all this out there incase it could be helpful to anyone interested. I feel like I get second best results after my chaser by shorting the oxygen and under pitching initial ramp temp past mid 70's and finish off with US-05 for good attenuation. Gonna try going to 80 degrees before the US-05 addition next time I get my hands on 3787 or maybe WLP530.

 

[jturman35]

I am drinking a Leffe blonde clone which used WLP530. I get slight spice not much banana but could be a temp thing. I also use 530 in a Westy 12 clone and it's a killer yeast. I have not experiment with other Belgian yeast but i really like WLP530. I think the key is ramping up the temp to get FG down to a reasonable level for the style. My Leffe clone went from 1.069- 1.013.