pH tested, no adjustments necessary?

[kh54s10]

After 8 years of quite successful brewing with just tap water and no pH measuring, I got a R/O system and pH meter. I believe that I calibrated the meter correctly.

My question is - Beersmith predicted that I would have a mash pH of 5.63 and gave 1.05 ml lactic acid for a target of 5.2. I measured and it was 5.33 so I said close enough and skipped the acid addition. Is this normal? To not need any acid?

It is an IPA with 8 pounds Rahr 2-row pale malt, 4 pounds Maris Otter and .75 pound C-40.

I added Gypsum, baking soda, Epsom salt and Calcium Chloride per what BS3 came up with.
I tasted the wort and it seemed different, less sweet than other worts I have tasted. We'll see in about 2 weeks.

 

[mabrungard]

Baking soda and acid?? That’s a bit counterproductive but not outlandish.

It is possible that the mash hit that pH if there was a nice dose of Ca and Mg minerals added , but it somewhat unlikely without the acid.

How confident are you of your pH meter performance?

 

[mongoose33]

Let me see what I can come up with--how much of those did you add? We have the grain bill, and know it's RO water, but how much of each water addition did you include? And how much water? Full infusion or sparging?

Assuming the pH is measured correctly, I'd say you're fine.

 

[kh54s10]

Mash = 6.78g gypsum, 2.19g Baking soda, 1.95g Epsom salt, 1.78g Calcium Chloride. It called for 1.05ml lactic acid. I did not add it. I read that BS3 over estimates the amount so I took my pH reading first.

Sparge = 8.72g gypsum, 2.81g Baking soda, 2.50g Epsom salt, 2.28g Calcium Chloride.

I used BS3's water additions. My weight measurements are .1 accurate no hundredths on my scale. Went low on most of them.

All the addition fields show within range except for sulphate it is at 301.3, range is 50 - 250.

Just checked my meter in the calibration solutions. 4.00 read 3.97. 6.86 = 6.86 9.18 = 9.07

Is that good enough? I thought that the 6.86 being right on and closest to beer it would give me a close enough reading. And didn't thing the others would make a .4 difference. Maybe .11 or so??

 

[bracconiere]

i think when you calibrate a ph meter you only calibrate in the direction your testing for....so for beer 4.01/7

 

[mongoose33]

Mash = 6.78g gypsum, 2.19g Baking soda, 1.95g Epsom salt, 1.78g Calcium Chloride. It called for 1.05ml lactic acid. I did not add it. I read that BS3 over estimates the amount so I took my pH reading first.

Sparge = 8.72g gypsum, 2.81g Baking soda, 2.50g Epsom salt, 2.28g Calcium Chloride.

I used BS3's water additions. My weight measurements are .1 accurate no hundredths on my scale. Went low on most of them.

All the addition fields show within range except for sulphate it is at 301.3, range is 50 - 250.

Just checked my meter in the calibration solutions. 4.00 read 3.97. 6.86 = 6.86 9.18 = 9.07

Is that good enough? I thought that the 6.86 being right on and closest to beer it would give me a close enough reading. And didn't thing the others would make a .4 difference. Maybe .11 or so??

Still don't know how much water, but I would be happy with your results as far as pH goes. A .4 difference is a lot, but at the levels around the mash pH--4.00 to 6.86--you're accurate to within .03, and that's just fine.

The rule of thumb (well, one of them ) is to get the pH between 5.2 and 5.6. You're pretty much in the middle. If I had that reading, I'd move on to the next thing. You're fine.

As a note: the estimates and the actual readings will rarely hit spot on. There are variations in malt, perhaps the measurement of the additions is off a bit, and so on. To my way of thinking, if you hit in the middle of that range, you're good. My last brew, a Kolsch, hit 5.39. The other issue is when you test it, but if you're doing it about 15-20 minutes into the mash, and cooling the sample to room temp, then it should be close enough for government work.

Now, as I'm sure you know, you can diddle with the additions to enhance various flavor profiles, and that's worth doing, IMO.

 

[kh54s10]

Still don't know how much water, but I would be happy with your results as far as pH goes. A .4 difference is a lot, but at the levels around the mash pH--4.00 to 6.86--you're accurate to within .03, and that's just fine.

The rule of thumb (well, one of them ) is to get the pH between 5.2 and 5.6. You're pretty much in the middle. If I had that reading, I'd move on to the next thing. You're fine.

As a note: the estimates and the actual readings will rarely hit spot on. There are variations in malt, perhaps the measurement of the additions is off a bit, and so on. To my way of thinking, if you hit in the middle of that range, you're good. My last brew, a Kolsch, hit 5.39. The other issue is when you test it, but if you're doing it about 15-20 minutes into the mash, and cooling the sample to room temp, then it should be close enough for government work.

Now, as I'm sure you know, you can diddle with the additions to enhance various flavor profiles, and that's worth doing, IMO.

I took my first measurement at maybe 10 minutes after stirring everything in. I have Dr Meter pH=100 pen meter. It says it is ATC. I let the sample sit for a while but certainly not to room temperature. After the mash the pH read 5.21 and the cooled wort measured 5.06

I targeted hoppy pale in the BS water profiles. Too early to do fancy flavor profile adjusting.

 

[kh54s10]

i think when you calibrate a ph meter you only calibrate in the direction your testing for....so for beer 4.01/7

I watched a video, similar but different mfg meter, they calibrated with the solution that was close to what they wanted to measure. But the instructions with the meter said to calibrate all three. Since my 6.86 was spot on, and that is closest to the 5.2 - 5.6 target for the mash, I guessed the calibration was OK.

 

[bracconiere]

Dr Meter pH=100

damn, that's a cheap meter (price wise)

Since my 6.86 was spot on, and that is closest to the 5.2 - 5.6 target for the mash, I guessed the calibration was OK.

6.86 in a 7.00 buffer solution, is actually pretty far off...

(but as far as not needing to adjust the mash, happens to me all the time. With my extremely inconsistent homemalt, i get readings all over the place)

edit: just realized this was 'brew science', (bows gracefully out of conversation)

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

6.86 and 7.01 are both buffering reference standards. Some pH meters are made for calibration with one, and some with the other. And some are switchable so they can use either.

 

[kh54s10]

It reads 6.86 in the 6.86 calibration solution. I bought the cheap meter based on reviews. They were pretty good. About the same as the more expensive ones. Thought I would try to cheap out.

 

[bracconiere]

6.86 and 7.01 are both buffering reference standards. Some pH meters are made for calibration with one, and some with the other. And some are switchable so they can use either.

ahh, didn't know...thought it was just 4.01/7.00. never heard of 6.86 before.

 

[bracconiere]

Thought I would try to cheap out.

+1
as would i!

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The Dr Meter pH 100 meter seems quite respectable. I've been considering nabbing one. Who has the best price going for one at present?

The Extech pH100 may be identical. ??? Ditto the "Beverage Doctor pH meter". ???

 

[mongoose33]

I took my first measurement at maybe 10 minutes after stirring everything in. I have Dr Meter pH=100 pen meter. It says it is ATC. I let the sample sit for a while but certainly not to room temperature. After the mash the pH read 5.21 and the cooled wort measured 5.06

I targeted hoppy pale in the BS water profiles. Too early to do fancy flavor profile adjusting.

The reason you want to get near room temperature is that the membranes on the meters will deteriorate a lot faster if used in hot liquids.

An easy way to cool down the sample is to put a whiskey glass or similar in your freezer. Such glasses have a lot of...well, glass in them, so a fair amount of thermal mass. When time to check pH, pull it out and put the sample in the glass. Maybe you might want two glasses, pouring from one to the other, depends on how much sample you pull.

 

[kh54s10]

The reason you want to get near room temperature is that the membranes on the meters will deteriorate a lot faster if used in hot liquids.

An easy way to cool down the sample is to put a whiskey glass or similar in your freezer. Such glasses have a lot of...well, glass in them, so a fair amount of thermal mass. When time to check pH, pull it out and put the sample in the glass. Maybe you might want two glasses, pouring from one to the other, depends on how much sample you pull.

Great idea!

 

[kh54s10]

The Dr Meter pH 100 meter seems quite respectable. I've been considering nabbing one. Who has the best price going for one at present?

The Extech pH100 may be identical. ??? Ditto the "Beverage Doctor pH meter". ???

I got mine from Amazon, don't remember the seller. I had looked at the Extech. I wonder if these are all made at the same factory for different sellers???

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I use a pair of 2 ounce Sam Adams sample glasses with a small bowl of ice water on brew days for cooling pH and gravity samples. The two glasses are to pull both end-of-fly-sparge last runnings sample at the same time as the full pre-boil sample...

Cheers!

 

[Yooper]

I got mine from Amazon, don't remember the seller. I had looked at the Extech. I wonder if these are all made at the same factory for different sellers???

Next time, instead of hitting a profile, try not using baking soda at all, unless you’re making a stout with RO water and need to raise the pH. the problem with hitting a “profile” is that it has an arbitrary target for the bicarbonate, and actually you never need bicarbonate except to raise your mash pH.

This is the only BS fail that I’m aware of- but it’s a big one. Their water calculator is awful. It gives bad profiles (like in this case where you were instructed to add both baking soda AND acid, which counteract each other) and bad mash pH predictions. I’d use something else for the water calculator part.

 

[Big Monk]

Next time, instead of hitting a profile, try not using baking soda at all, unless you’re making a stout with RO water and need to raise the pH. the problem with hitting a “profile” is that it has an arbitrary target for the bicarbonate, and actually you never need bicarbonate except to raise your mash pH.

This is the only BS fail that I’m aware of- but it’s a big one. Their water calculator is awful. It gives bad profiles (like in this case where you were instructed to add both baking soda AND acid, which counteract each other) and bad mash pH predictions. I’d use something else for the water calculator part.

No shortage of them around these days.

 

[Oginme]

Next time, instead of hitting a profile, try not using baking soda at all, unless you’re making a stout with RO water and need to raise the pH. the problem with hitting a “profile” is that it has an arbitrary target for the bicarbonate, and actually you never need bicarbonate except to raise your mash pH.

This is the only BS fail that I’m aware of- but it’s a big one. Their water calculator is awful. It gives bad profiles (like in this case where you were instructed to add both baking soda AND acid, which counteract each other) and bad mash pH predictions. I’d use something else for the water calculator part.

The issue is when you are trying to hit a profile with a bicarbonate level, the program will use baking soda to supply the bicarbonate ions to the water profile. It is not an issue with the program, it is just trying to hit the ion proportions it is being told to target. It comes down to choosing the proper profile to target where you are not trying to add anything beyond what is really needed.

 

[Yooper]

The issue is when you are trying to hit a profile with a bicarbonate level, the program will use baking soda to supply the bicarbonate ions to the water profile. It is not an issue with the program, it is just trying to hit the ion proportions it is being told to target. It comes down to choosing the proper profile to target where you are not trying to add anything beyond what is really needed.

Yes, you're right- it's the 'profile' target that I have an issue with. There is NO desirable amount of bicarbonate, only just what is needed to raise the pH if necessary.
The thing is, the program continually gives you the additions that counteract each other- acid to lower the pH, baking soda to raise the pH. It's not a "smart" program- it just gives ingredients to hit a certain arbitrary number.

 

[Big Monk]

Yes, you're right- it's the 'profile' target that I have an issue with. There is NO desirable amount of bicarbonate, only just what is needed to raise the pH if necessary.
The thing is, the program continually gives you the additions that counteract each other- acid to lower the pH, baking soda to raise the pH. It's not a "smart" program- it just gives ingredients to hit a certain arbitrary number.

^^^^
THIS.

Bicarbonate is a proxy for alkalinity. The only time you want to add alkalinity to brewing water is if your target pH is higher than your reference pH.

 

[Oginme]

Yes, you're right- it's the 'profile' target that I have an issue with. There is NO desirable amount of bicarbonate, only just what is needed to raise the pH if necessary.
The thing is, the program continually gives you the additions that counteract each other- acid to lower the pH, baking soda to raise the pH. It's not a "smart" program- it just gives ingredients to hit a certain arbitrary number.

I am well aware that the two are working to cancel each other out. Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see any program or spreadsheet available now that adjusts the mineral content to achieve a target mash pH. They all work based upon matching a given water profile and then calculate out the effect on the mash pH from the added mineral salts.

 

[Big Monk]

I am well aware that the two are working to cancel each other out. Maybe I am missing something, but I do not see any program or spreadsheet available now that adjusts the mineral content to achieve a target mash pH. They all work based upon matching a given water profile and then calculate out the effect on the mash pH from the added mineral salts.

That’s the problem. Why would you want a water profile that has alkalinity? Wouldn’t you want to run the numbers, see if estimated pH is low, THEN add alkalinity?

The problem IS the target water profile, not the brewer who tries to match it.

This isn’t directed at you specifically but a general observation. The reason people add Baking Soda or Lime AND Acid is because they think they need to match the alkalinity (with bicarbonate as a proxy) of the target water. That isn’t the case.

 

[Oginme]

That’s the problem. Why would you want a water profile that has alkalinity? Wouldn’t you want to run the numbers, see if estimated pH is low, THEN add alkalinity?

The problem IS the target water profile, not the brewer who tries to match it.

This isn’t directed at you specifically but a general observation. The reason people add Baking Soda or Lime AND Acid is because they think they need to match the alkalinity (with bicarbonate as a proxy) of the target water. That isn’t the case.

I would forward that it is both the water profile and the brewer who blindly follows them. It is the issue that I had with the color/flavor balance profiles that Palmer had put forward, it is based upon anticipating a required alkalinity in the water to counter the acidity which is assumed by the color of the wort.

Yooper used this as a flaw of the BeerSmith program, yet it is then the same flaw which is found in the other similar programs. Personally, I find the water profiling in BeerSmith to be easy to work with *as long as you know what you are doing*, but that applies to all the water profiling programs/software now available.

 

[Yooper]

Yooper used this as a flaw of the BeerSmith program, yet it is then the same flaw which is found in the other similar programs. Personally, I find the water profiling in BeerSmith to be easy to work with *as long as you know what you are doing*, but that applies to all the water profiling programs/software now available.

I agree, mostly.
I help out with Brewer's Friend and there are constant requests for the "easy button" like in Brewer's Friend and other programs where you click a button and your additions are figured for you.
I've been adamantly opposed to it for all the years I've helped out there. The reason is just this- you have a 'profile' and click a button or two to get you there. Well, some tell you to add chalk if you need calcium and bicarbonate- and chalk doesn't dissolve well anyway without extraneous measures- or baking soda for some sodium and bicarb. It's so commonly requested that I may not win this battle forever, though.
As it is, I hate even having water from other cities listed as targets, because even with not having the software figure the additions, it's usually not a great idea. People see a bicarb listed there, and immediately try to hit it, instead of the proper mash pH. I would love a huge red asterisk in every one of the water targets that has bicarb listed with *THIS IS NOT a GOAL and we should take it out!
But I know I will never win that argument.

 

[Big Monk]

I agree, mostly.
I help out with Brewer's Friend and there are constant requests for the "easy button" like in Brewer's Friend and other programs where you click a button and your additions are figured for you.
I've been adamantly opposed to it for all the years I've helped out there. The reason is just this- you have a 'profile' and click a button or two to get you there. Well, some tell you to add chalk if you need calcium and bicarbonate- and chalk doesn't dissolve well anyway without extraneous measures- or baking soda for some sodium and bicarb. It's so commonly requested that I may not win this battle forever, though.
As it is, I hate even having water from other cities listed as targets, because even with not having the software figure the additions, it's usually not a great idea. People see a bicarb listed there, and immediately try to hit it, instead of the proper mash pH. I would love a huge red asterisk in every one of the water targets that has bicarb listed with *THIS IS NOT a GOAL and we should take it out!
But I know I will never win that argument.

^^^^
THIS.

Do away with bicarbonate in water profile targets.

Better yet, develop a set of water profiles by style rather than region and jettison regional profiles all together.

 

[mabrungard]

Do away with bicarbonate in water profile targets.

Better yet, develop a set of water profiles by style rather than region and jettison regional profiles all together.

I've sort of reduced the targeting of bicarbonate in the Supporter's version of Bru'n Water, but it wouldn't be a big deal to eliminate it as a 'target'. However, I don't believe that removing it from water profiles would be productive since then users can't assess what those raw water sources might have been.

Your second point of eliminating regional profiles and substituting style profiles might still be seen as counterproductive and possibly demeaned as 'limiting' by some. Bru'n Water presents a bunch of water profiles that include researched regional profiles, color and perception-based profiles, and style-based profiles. While I'm for simplicity, some brewers do want the ability to think for themselves.

 

[Big Monk]

I've sort of reduced the targeting of bicarbonate in the Supporter's version of Bru'n Water, but it wouldn't be a big deal to eliminate it as a 'target'. However, I don't believe that removing it from water profiles would be productive since then users can't assess what those raw water sources might have been.

Your second point of eliminating regional profiles and substituting style profiles might still be seen as counterproductive and possibly demeaned as 'limiting' by some. Bru'n Water presents a bunch of water profiles that include researched regional profiles, color and perception-based profiles, and style-based profiles. While I'm for simplicity, some brewers do want the ability to think for themselves.

Agreed on targeting alkalinity.

It doesn’t take a genius to realize that you shouldn’t target a value for alkalinity and add a base to your water prior to analyzing what the prediction would be.

The profiles themselves I guess I’m indifferent about. As long as people are aware that adding base arbitrarily to hit a profile in something like Bru’n Water is a silly thing to do, then I have no beef with that at all and I doubt you do either.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

.....Bru'n Water presents a bunch of water profiles that include researched regional profiles, color and perception-based profiles, and style-based profiles. While I'm for simplicity, some brewers do want the ability to think for themselves.

Regional water profiles will provide insight into the water properties of a region. But knowing how to treat those waters for use in brewing is the challenge. That insight is something to learn on brewday mostly by trial and error.