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jmhbutler

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I've been reading some advance homebrewing literature (Gordon Strong and Braukaiser) and theres a concept I'm having trouble wrapping my head around based on the following facts:

a. The target mash pH at room temperature is 5.3-5.8 with a target of 5.5.

b. Sparge water should be acidified to a room temperature pH of 5.7.

c. Pre-boil ph at room temperature should be in a range of 5.3-5.5 with a target of 5.4.


So, if the mash is around 5.5 and the sparge water is around 5.7. How is the pre-boil pH ever going to get as low as 5.4? Perhaps somebody can help me conceptualize what is going on here.
 
Your mash pH is strong and your sparge pH is weak, so the the mash pH can keep the total pH down to around 5.4-5.5 . Think muscles.
 
a. The target mash pH at room temperature is 5.3-5.8 with a target of 5.5.

Opinions vary here. I'd say 5.2 - 5.6 with 5.4-5.5 the sweet spot. It depends some on the particular beer.

b. Sparge water should be acidified to a room temperature pH of 5.7.
Sparge water should be acidified as necessary to prevent the runoff pH from rising above 6. If the water is low in alkalinity it may not need any acid at all. Clearly, acidifying it to the pH of the mash will more than insure that pH 6 is not exceeded and at the same time minimize the effect of the sparge water on wort pH.

c. Pre-boil ph at room temperature should be in a range of 5.3-5.5 with a target of 5.4.
Pre boil pH will be whatever the mash pH is with some drift. IOW if mash pH is intitially 5.4 it may drift up a bit to say 5.45 or even 5.5 or down a bit to pH 5.35 or so. This depends on whether acids or bases (or acidic or basic malts) have been added to the base malts as the pH establishing reactions can be quite slow.


So, if the mash is around 5.5 and the sparge water is around 5.7. How is the pre-boil pH ever going to get as low as 5.4? Perhaps somebody can help me conceptualize what is going on here.

It isn't. The pH of a mixture will always be between the pH's of the components unless a reaction occurs, such as the reaction between calcium in the water and the phosphates from malt, which releases protons. Thus, as is well known, you can mash a malt with DI pH say 5.7 with hard water at pH 7 and wind up with a mash pH of 5.6. Those reactions take place in the mash and in the kettle.

The general concept is relatively simply explained in terms of the proton deficits and surfeits (negative defecit) of each component in the mash or wort. A proton deficit is the amount of acid (protons) that must be supplied to a mash component to lower its pH from the pH at which it comes to you (its intrinsic pH) to a particular pH of interest, called the reference pH. For example if you have water with alkalinity 100 and pH 7 and wish to use it to obtain a mash pH of 5.4 each liter of that water will need to be treated with 1.79 mEq of acid. That is the proton deficit of the water at pH 5.4: 1.79 mEq/L.

Suppose that you are mashing Crisp Maris Otter. It has a distilled water mash pH (at room temperature) of 5.69. To get a kg of it to pH 5.4 will require 14.07 mEq of acid so its proton deficit at pH 5.4 is 14.08 mEq/kg.

Suppose further that you are mashing 1 kg of the MO in 4 liters of water and want a mash pH of 5.4. The proton deficit for the water is now 4*1.83 = 7.31 and for the malt 14.08 for a total of 21.39. This means that if you make this mash its pH will be higher than 5.4 unless you add 21.39 mEq of acid to it. That acid could come from a bottle of acid or from a colored malt or acidulated malt. Weyermanns acidulated malt has a DI mash pH of 3.6 and will supply 333.8 mEq of protons per kg at pH 5.4. Thus its proton surfeit is 333.8 mEq/kg (deficit -333.8 mEq/kg) to pH 5.4. As you would need 21.39 mEq protons it is clear that you must add 21.39/333.8 = 0.064 kg (64 grams) of sauermalz to the mash to cover the proton deficits of the malt and the water. To sumarize

Water Proton Deficit: 7.31 mEq
Base Malt Proton Deficit: 14.08 mEq
Sauermalz Proton Deficit: -21.39 mEq

Total Proton Deficit: 0 mEq

To further illustrate, let's leave the sauermalz out and compute the proton deficits of the water and base malts at 5.827. These are:

Water Proton Deficit: 6.29 mEq
Base Malt Proton Deficit: -6.29 mEq

Again, the sum is 0. What is happening here is that the base malt is actually acidic with respect to the water and gives up protons to it. The pH of a mixture of 4L of this water with 1 kg of this malt results in a pH of 5.83.

Now lets assume the water is half as alkaline: 50 ppm as CaCO3 and use Munton's Maris Otter with 77 grams of acidulated malt. The numbers at pH 5.4 now look like:

Water Proton Deficit: 3.66 mEq
Base Malt Proton Deficit: 22.07 mEq
Sauermalz Proton Deficit: -25.73 mEq

Total Proton Deficit: 0 mEq

The message here is that the pH of a mixture depends on the proton deficits of each of the components and that the sum of the proton deficits must be 0. This simply says that any protons given off by an acidic component (colored malt, acid, acidualted malt) are absorbed by the basic components (base malts, liquor alkalinity). Some components have more influence than others depending on the component's intrinsic pH, buffering capacity and relative quantity.
 
Thanks Ajdelanger for helping to conceptualize the concept of proton deficit and the relative influence of relative components.

Based on this description and your knowledge, I have another questions maybe you could clarify.

I have an HI98128 meter and measure my pH at mash temp for simplicity. I've measured the difference between MT and RT and find the difference to be around 0.27. (This makes sense as I know the theoretic is 0.35 but meters are prone to under correcting).

Questions is, I've been told to look for a mash pH of around 5.2-5.4 at MT. Should I be using this range or instead take the RT range of 5.3-5.6 and convert that using my calculated change (which would be 5.05 to 5.35).

Whenever I mash, I seem to always hit 5.15-5.25 and it seems near impossible to deviate from that range. Even if I add the salts that a calculator says should create a pH of 5.6 I can't get above 5.3.

I imagine this is a cause of the buffering potential of the grains, which leads to the question of which delta should I use - the 0.35 theoretic value, the 0.27 associated with my meter, or the 0.20 that seems commonly accepted.
 
I have an HI98128 meter and measure my pH at mash temp for simplicity. I've measured the difference between MT and RT and find the difference to be around 0.27.

First comment here is that the HI98128 is specified to a maximum temperature of 140 °F beyond which I don't know what happens except that there is the potential for physical damage to the meter. As the limitation indicates that the temperature will not read above this it is reasonable to assume that ATC stops working at this temperature even if the meter is not damaged. This, naturally, leads to the second comment which is really the question: "What do you mean by mash temperature? Is it a ß-glucan rest, protein rest, sacchharification rest...?"

Third comment is that if you are measuring at elevated temperature you will shorten the life of your electrode which is why most measurements are made at room temperature.

(This makes sense as I know the theoretic is 0.35......
As far as I know there is no 'theoretical temperature'. If you had posed this question a couple of weeks ago I would have said that the temperature slope is 0.0055 pH/°C implying a difference of 0.165 pH for room temperature of 20 °C and mash temperature of 50 °C. That was based on measurements of a couple of mashes as they cooled. Recent data collection on individual malts has shown me that the pH slope can be almost 3 times that for some malts (0.42 pH for that same 30 °C spread between mash and measurement temperature.).

...but meters are prone to under correcting)
We are not talking about the meter's correction (ATC) here but about the actual pH change of the mash as it cools. This is caused by the temperature dependence of proton binding energy in the malt acids (pKs). There is a potential problem with ATC, however, if the isolelectric pH of the electrode is other than exactly 7.00. I've had a couple of fairly expensive, snazzy electrodes with isoelectric pH's of well over 8. ATC is pretty useless with them except within a few degrees of the temperature at which the calibration is done (unless you are doing your own ATC based on knowledge of the actual pHi).

Questions is, I've been told to look for a mash pH of around 5.2-5.4 at MT. Should I be using this range...
Yes, that's what we all should do but it isn't really practical or, in terms of meter longevity, desirable.


...or instead take the RT range of 5.3-5.6 and convert that using my calculated change (which would be 5.05 to 5.35).
The more practical approach is to measure at room temperature, seek the good range at room temperature (5.3 - 5.6?) and assume that when you hit that at room temperature everything will be good at mash temperature. That is, of course, a bit of a reach but with experience you should find what room temp pH works best for each type of beer you brew. This can potentially get quite involved. For example, Irish stout mashes with 70% Maris Otter base malt, 10% roast barley and 20% flaked barley will both reach a protein rest temperature pH of about 5.4 but the corresponding room temperature pH's are 5.7 for Muntons M.O. and 5.6 for Crisps.


Whenever I mash, I seem to always hit 5.15-5.25 and it seems near impossible to deviate from that range. Even if I add the salts that a calculator says should create a pH of 5.6 I can't get above 5.3.
Many of the calculators are really rough in the way they model both the bicarbonate systems and malts. Nevertheless, if you add enough base to overcome the buffering of a mash its pH will increase (and this isn't buffering in the sense of a 'buffer' used to calibrate a pH meter). The base must be available to react (IOW calcium carbonate isn't effective whereas sodium bicarbonate is) but even if it is it can sometimes take a long time for the reaction to complete and the pH change to become fully apparent.

I imagine this is a cause of the buffering potential of the grains, which leads to the question of which delta should I use - the 0.35 theoretic value, the 0.27 associated with my meter, or the 0.20 that seems commonly accepted.
As noted above I wouldn't convert but rather work with the room temperature numbers. I have to say, though, that given my recent findings this subject needs to be thought about some more.
 
As noted above I wouldn't convert but rather work with the room temperature numbers. I have to say, though, that given my recent findings this subject needs to be thought about some more.

Thanks for all the insight; I'm appreciative. If you don't mind me asking, what lead you to your research?

Finally, any tips on quickly decreasing samples to room temperature? I know breweries often use double copper piping for their gravity samples in which cold water is pumped through the outer (slightly shorter) pipe? Maybe a similar solution for pH samples?
 
As far as I know there is no 'theoretical temperature'. If you had posed this question a couple of weeks ago I would have said that the temperature slope is 0.0055 pH/°C implying a difference of 0.165 pH for room temperature of 20 °C and mash temperature of 50 °C. That was based on measurements of a couple of mashes as they cooled. Recent data collection on individual malts has shown me that the pH slope can be almost 3 times that for some malts (0.42 pH for that same 30 °C spread between mash and measurement temperature.).

This would really shatter a long standing ASSumption. It never occurred to me that this slope might be so materially different between mashes. This would imply 5.4 at room temp could still be anywhere from 4.98 to 5.24 in the mash.

When you get a better grasp on the data, can you start a new thread on this subject with your methodology and results?
 
Finally, any tips on quickly decreasing samples to room temperature? I know breweries often use double copper piping for their gravity samples in which cold water is pumped through the outer (slightly shorter) pipe? Maybe a similar solution for pH samples?

I keep a few heavy coffee mugs in the deep freeze. A shot glass of mash will cool in minutes to just above 20*C.
 
Thanks for all the insight; I'm appreciative. If you don't mind me asking, what lead you to your research?
That's a long story but the basics are that I am looking at more robust ways of estimating mash pH with the approach that I sketched out earlier (the mash pH is the pH that balances proton deficits and surfeits). In order to do this one needs to be able to calculate the proton deficit or surfeit of a malt at a particular pH and that requires titration of the malt. As the actual reactions between malts take place at elevated temperature it only makes sense to do the titrations at elevated temperature (50 °C i.e. protein rest temperature). Since time is a factor (it can take an hour for pH equilibrium to be reached if a malt is being moved far from its DI mash pH) it is necessary to record pH history over time. It clicked on me one day that I should, at the conclusion of a pH recording, take the beaker out of the water bath and continue to record pH and temperature to see if the 0.0055 that I see in my lager brewing was a good estimate. That's where I got the surprise.

Finally, any tips on quickly decreasing samples to room temperature? I know breweries often use double copper piping for their gravity samples in which cold water is pumped through the outer (slightly shorter) pipe? Maybe a similar solution for pH samples?

I swiped a very small saucepan from the kitchen and use that to dip samples from mashtun or kettle. I then sit this in cold water. It's pretty quick.
 
This would really shatter a long standing ASSumption. It never occurred to me that this slope might be so materially different between mashes.

It never occurred to me either! The mechanism has got to be the temperature dependence of the pK's in the malts' acids. One would think two samples of Maris Otter from two maltsters might vary some in DI mash pH as a function of different levels of kilning, for example, but at the same time would think that the acids are more or less the same and ought to behave approximately the same way with temperature.

This would imply 5.4 at room temp could still be anywhere from 4.98 to 5.24 in the mash.
Yes, it would, depending on how we define mash and room temperature.


When you get a better grasp on the data, can you start a new thread on this subject with your methodology and results?
The methodology is more or less as I described in my previous post but yes, you will certainly be hearing more about this as I get some more data but data collection on malts is slow and painful (it takes a couple of days to do one malt).
 
As far as I know there is no 'theoretical temperature'. If you had posed this question a couple of weeks ago I would have said that the temperature slope is 0.0055 pH/°C implying a difference of 0.165 pH for room temperature of 20 °C and mash temperature of 50 °C. That was based on measurements of a couple of mashes as they cooled. Recent data collection on individual malts has shown me that the pH slope can be almost 3 times that for some malts (0.42 pH for that same 30 °C spread between mash and measurement temperature.).

Very interesting! I guess I'm not surprised that the pH/temperature slope varies with differing malts. This is another good reason to standardize on measuring pH at a standard room temperature.

Thanks, AJ!
 
Very interesting! I guess I'm not surprised that the pH/temperature slope varies with differing malts. This is another good reason to standardize on measuring pH at a standard room temperature.

Thanks, AJ!

I second that. My initial intuition lead me believe that there was a simple, linear conversion between higher and lower temperature pH values. I found this resource helpful to those who, like myself, may be on more of a basic knowledge of chemistry:

http://www.alliancets.com/site/files/408/29497/109873/159912/Guide_to_pH_Measurement.pdf
 
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