Oxidation? Is it worth secondary fermentation????

[Saabmike]

I have been home brewing cider for about a year now and have had all successful batches. i have a pretty consistent process.
-Sanitize
-ingredients (Apple juice,yeast, pectic enzyme, yeast nutrients)
-Ferment (depending on how patient i am)
-Back sweeten (apple juice from concentrate)
-Bottle (use plastic bottle method)
-Wait til carbed and Pasteurize (using sous vide)

Recently I had a batch that had alot of trub and junk on the bottom of the Fer-monster more than previously. So I decided to use a Secondary (racking method) instant regret. After about 2 days in the secondary i'm reading all these posts about Oxidation and am getting worried about it!

Did i mess up a whole batch of cider?

Why did i rack? Why does anyone Rack?

Should i bottle the cider tonight to try and salvage it? It was in the primary for about 40 days.

Can someone explain oxidation? i feel like there is no good info out there after reading post after post about people being worried about it..........

 

[Maylar]

Oxidation is just that - exposure to oxygen that changes the taste and color of your cider. Oxygen is required by the yeast in the beginning stage of fermenting, but becomes our enemy toward the end. It's really not a big deal to control it if you follow recommended practices. During primary fermentation the production of CO2 keeps oxygen out. But as the ferment slows down we need to consider ways to limit exposure.

Racking actually helps in that regard. What works for me is to wait until gravity gets below 1.010 (about 80% done) and rack off the lees into a smaller vessel with no head space. With an airlock you can keep O2 at bay. Once secondary is done and after the cider clears (maybe 2 months) I'll replace the airlock with a solid cap. Typically there will only be a dusting of lees and the cider can age on that for months.

I rack always. Others will tell you that they don't. But I like to age for months before bottling and need to eliminate headspace for that. Another place to be careful is the racking process - you always get a bit of air sucked in to the siphon and hoses, but don't allow lots of bubbles.

So I guess the question is how much air has your cider been exposed to and for how long? Also, keeping the sulfite level up at 50 ppm really helps the cider resist oxidation. This is highly recommended.

 

[Saabmike]

Thank you for your response it means alot!!
I have 2 siphonless fermonsters (with spigot) so what i did was i elevated one and kind of poured the cider down the wall of the other till it was alomost filled then just finished draining. yea so im thinking im f&^%&#

i bought Tanin a while back but have not used it yet! ive been reluctant because all my batches have been quite good.

 

[CKuhns]

As Maylar suggests - if at all possible remove the headspace and add sulfite. I would allow it to go to secondary and see how it turns out. Yes, Oxidation is a thing and with Ciders is pretty important to the flavor etc. let it go, rack when done and taste it along the way if OK then consider adding spices and or fruit with some tannin and or acid to taste. Might not be the best you can make but certainly might be salvageable and drinkable.

What do you have to lose? ​

 

[Kwitty]

If you have two siphonless fermenter you won't need a siphon at all! Make sure the full fermenter is well above the empty fermenter. Attach a hose to each valve and open both valves. One will drain into the bottom of the other with minimal splashing. Splashing results in oxygen uptake. Keep the flow slow until above the valve. Obviously use food grade tubing and sanitize the tubing and valves. I use a spray bottle of starsan and spray up inside the valves before and after. It's good to rinse out the one you just transfered to.
I personally don't secondary unless I'm aging something more than 60 days. It's been my experience than not much can happen in that short of a time. Transfer poses more risk with oxidation and infection. Here is my advice.
1. Minimize splashing
2. (as Maylar said) transfer BEFORE final gravity. The yeast will produce a little more co2 and push a lot of the oxygen out. Purge with Co2 if you have it but not completely nessesary.
3. Keep it airtight! Make sure everything is sealed and check your airlock monthly. I forgot to do this and wasted a batch because it went dry.
4. Minimize how often you open it, especially if you don't have co2 to purge with. I understand wanting to check final gravity but at this point it is what it is. I wait until I bottle/keg. No sense in introducing more oxygen than needed.
5. Minimizing oxygen is important but it's not to be feared. It can spoil a beer but it won't be instant and small amounts are not to be worried about. If you start getting more invested with equipment, competitions, and long term cellaring there are ways to go farther with this. However if you're drinking it relatively quickly (a few months) and keeping it stored cool (after carbonation) you won't notice it much unless you're careless. In short RDWHAHB!

 

[Saabmike]

thanks again guys for the responses! if i was too add Tannin after adding it to the secondary how long after should i wait to bottle? or was it needed to be added during fermentation?

 

[Maylar]

Depends on which tannin you have. Read the directions for what you have. The tannins that are meant for secondary typically say 3 weeks before bottling.

 

[Saabmike]

i bought it from northern brew and doesn't give much information.

https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/wine-tannin

 

[jeanzanita]

Oxidation is just that - exposure to oxygen that changes the taste and color of your cider. Oxygen is required by the yeast in the beginning stage of fermenting, but becomes our enemy toward the end. It's really not a big deal to control it if you follow recommended practices. During primary fermentation the production of CO2 keeps oxygen out. But as the ferment slows down we need to consider ways to limit exposure.

Racking actually helps in that regard. What works for me is to wait until gravity gets below 1.010 (about 80% done) and rack off the lees into a smaller vessel with no head space. With an airlock you can keep O2 at bay. Once secondary is done and after the cider clears (maybe 2 months) I'll replace the airlock with a solid cap. Typically there will only be a dusting of lees and the cider can age on that for months.

I rack always. Others will tell you that they don't. But I like to age for months before bottling and need to eliminate headspace for that. Another place to be careful is the racking process - you always get a bit of air sucked in to the siphon and hoses, but don't allow lots of bubbles.

So I guess the question is how much air has your cider been exposed to and for how long? Also, keeping the sulfite level up at 50 ppm really helps the cider resist oxidation. This is highly recommended.

Hi Maylar, I have a question about the sulfiting you mention. I've heard this advice before but don't understand a couple of things - at what point are you adding the sulfite? To the primary BEFORE racking, during the process, or after? Once it is added, since you want to keep the oxygen out - won't the gas get trapped inside ? Trying to get my head around this; since when sulfiting to start out with, I leave the cider open so that the gas dissapates. If you can expand on this a little, I'd really appreciate it - thanks !

 

[Maylar]

Hi Maylar, I have a question about the sulfiting you mention. I've heard this advice before but don't understand a couple of things - at what point are you adding the sulfite? To the primary BEFORE racking, during the process, or after? Once it is added, since you want to keep the oxygen out - won't the gas get trapped inside ? Trying to get my head around this; since when sulfiting to start out with, I leave the cider open so that the gas dissapates. If you can expand on this a little, I'd really appreciate it - thanks !

There are 2 reasons to use sulfite. First, for unpasteurized juice we use it to kill wild yeast and bacteria. That's done 24 hrs before pitching the yeast. Secondly, for maintaining stability after fermenting we use it as an antioxidant. That's done at every other racking or as a minimum at bottling time.

Edit: Adding sulfite doesn't require venting. You're not making gas that needs to escape.

 

[jeanzanita]

There are 2 reasons to use sulfite. First, for unpasteurized juice we use it to kill wild yeast and bacteria. That's done 24 hrs before pitching the yeast. Secondly, for maintaining stability after fermenting we use it as an antioxidant. That's done at every other racking or as a minimum at bottling time.

Edit: Adding sulfite doesn't require venting. You're not making gas that needs to escape.

Thanks Maylar, but can you expand how you add the sulfite at racking? Do you dissolve a campden tablet directly into your carboy after racking for instance? If you can detail the actual process a little, that would help. Also, does this leave any sulfite flavor or odor and if it does, will it disappear later?
Thanks much

 

[Maylar]

The nominal dose of 50 ppm seems to work for me in all cases so far. That's 1/4 tsp of potassium metabisulfite powder per 5-6 gallons, or 1 Campden tablet per gallon. If using Campden tabs I crush them to powder between 2 spoons or in a mortar and pestle. I always dissolve additives in a small amount of must (Pyrex measuring cup) to be sure they will mix well. Pour that into the receiving carboy and rack on top of it (or add after racking and stir gently).

In small amounts like that you can't smell or taste it.

 

[jeanzanita]

The nominal dose of 50 ppm seems to work for me in all cases so far. That's 1/4 tsp of potassium metabisulfite powder per 5-6 gallons, or 1 Campden tablet per gallon. If using Campden tabs I crush them to powder between 2 spoons or in a mortar and pestle. I always dissolve additives in a small amount of must (Pyrex measuring cup) to be sure they will mix well. Pour that into the receiving carboy and rack on top of it (or add after racking and stir gently).

In small amounts like that you can't smell or taste it.

Thanks so much Maylar ! That helps a lot to know what others are doing in real life...I appreciate the info

 

[CatsCradle]

I have several ciders in secondary, been there for a couple months. Throughout that time I have sampled my ciders to monitor the taste. I do this my getting a sanitized straw and taking a small amount of cider out to put in a glass to taste. I then immediately cover the cider back up with a plug and airlock. Will my cider oxidize because of this ?

 

[Maylar]

No.