Oud Bruin lacto?

[brownni5]

Not that I have anything against Brett - I don't, I love it - but for a brown sour to add to my rotation, I'd like to add a true to style Oud Bruin - a sour brown without the funk. Two ways that I can see to do this - blend a young beer with a sour one, or brew a sour beer. What are the best Lacto strains for producing a sour beer with 15-20 IBU? Who's had good success with the White Labs brevis or other culture? So many of the commercially produces cultures now cater to the kettle sour (not that there's anything wrong with kettle sours).

More than anything, I think I want to try a LAB culture other than plantarum or one in a mixed culture for a clean-ish sour.

 

[RPh_Guy]

What are the best Lacto strains for producing a sour beer with 15-20 IBU?

To my knowledge there aren't any such commercial LAB cultures. Being propagated in unhopped media causes them to lose hop-tolerance.

You have options for a bitter sour:

1. Blend sour beer/wort with hoppy beer/wort. Or use a large hop tea after souring.
2. Grow your own hop-tolerant LAB. Start with L. brevis and grow it in a series of starters with progressively larger amounts of hops.
3. Kettle sour.
4. Use a blend like Roeselare with Pedio. Give it 18 months or longer. Occasional feeding with wort or maltodextrin will help develop sourness. The Brett in Roeselare is pretty restrained in my opinion.

Traditional Oud Bruin does have Brett, but there's nothing wrong with a brown Lacto sour if that's what you want.
For example Petrus Oud Bruin, Monk's Cafe, Slaapmutske FLOSS, VanderGhinste Roodbruin, Bacchus, etc all have Brett.

Hope this helps.

 

[ten80]

L. brevis is probably your best bet, the hop tolerance is somewhere around 10-20 IBU depending on the strain. You can do a set of sequential starters to build up hop tolerance if you really want. Check the Milk The funk wiki on the subject: http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus#Hop_Tolerance

 

[brownni5]

Blending it is! Thanks guys/gals.

 

[RPh_Guy]

L. brevis is probably your best bet, the hop tolerance is somewhere around 10-20 IBU depending on the strain.

Can you point to a commercial Lacto-only product available for homebrewers that will sour a 20 IBU beer on the first pitch?

I can't.

 

[ten80]

Can you point to a commercial Lacto-only product available for homebrewers that will sour a 20 IBU beer on the first pitch?

I can't.

Sounds like you're looking to dissect my semantics and prove me wrong, and the OP has decided on blending, so I won't spend the time finding the relevant podcasts and information from Milk the Funk. If you're actually interested, I'll look it up.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I am interested. I don't know of any such available strain that will sour 20 IBU wort.

The guy in the MTF article probably wouldn't have gone through 50-60 Lacto starters to get a 20-ish IBU-tolerant strain if he could just buy it.

If such a strain does exist, it would save the OP the trouble of blending.

 

[brownni5]

I am interested. I don't know of any such available strain that will sour 20 IBU wort.

The guy in the MTF article probably wouldn't have gone through 50-60 Lacto starters to get a 20-ish IBU-tolerant strain if he could just buy it.

Hard to say - he's a microbiology professor at a Canadian University - might just want to show that he can do it - don't know - don't know the guy. Terrific blogger, though.

Edit: might be bio-chem. Way smarter than me, though.

 

[ten80]

Blending seems more certain than using hop-resistant bacterium.

I said a very non-specific "somewhere around 10-20 IBU wort..." intended as an approximation, not a hard statement of "20 IBU." That said, here are some references:

Here's a purported "<30 IBU" resistant L.brevis
http://www.eastcoastyeast.com/wild-stuff.html

A couple potential commercial options that purportedly sour at over 10 IBU with an upper limit of 15-ish:
https://bootlegbiology.com/product/sour-weapon-pediococcus-pentosaceus-blend/
https://www.theyeastbay.com/wild-yeast-and-bacteria-products/lactobacillus-blend

Some more good info on Lactobacillus sp.
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus

There's some interesting reading on Cascade Brewing's hop-tolerant L.brevis use and potentially culturing dregs from their bottles. The Rare Barrel also has a very hop-tolerant Lactobacillus specie(s). Head on down the Google search rabbit hole...

 

[brownni5]

I bought a bottle of Cascade Kentucky Peach with the intent of harvesting the dregs, so perhaps I'll try that. It is a big beer, though, and barrel aged, so I assume it has some Brett character to it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

ECY Lacto:
Unavailable. Maybe they do occasional production runs?

Bootleg Pedio:
They only produce it a couple times a year. They put in bold that "IBUs over 10 may prevent significant souring."
It is reportedly a good option for souring up to 30 IBU if you don't mind waiting a couple months ... with risk of oxidation, and potentially limited sourness.

TYB Lacto:
They state "We recommend holding the IBU on the low end (< 2-3) if you'd like to use this blend to create acidity in a shorter time frame."
I'm having difficulty finding any reports of people using it in hopped beer. People are stuck on kettle souring.
@Biobrewer Nick, care to weigh in regarding hop tolerance? This question comes up a lot.

Dregs are a great option but contain a mixed culture, and may not be suitable for primary fermentation (many sour beer producers use bottling yeast). So you're looking at a long-term production.

Blending seems more certain than using hop-resistant bacterium.

Sounds like we agree the commercial bacteria aren't reliable for fast souring 15-20 IBU.

 

[sweetcell]

Traditional Oud Bruin does have Brett,

For example Petrus Oud Bruin, Monk's Cafe, Slaapmutske FLOSS, VanderGhinste Roodbruin, Bacchus, etc all have Brett.

traditional oud bruins do not have brett - they have sacch + lacto, only.

the examples you cite above are not traditional oud bruins.

 

[RPh_Guy]

the examples you cite above are not traditional oud bruins.

Look at the beers pointed out as commercial examples by the BJCP (2015)...
Ichtegem's Oud Bruin, Liefmans Goudenband, Liefmans Oud Bruin, Petrus Oud Bruin, Riva Vondel, and Vanderghinste Bellegems Bruin (Roodbruin).

They are all pretty clearly Brett beers, aged for months-years in oak and blended as is typical for traditional mixed fermentations. The characteristic Brett funk is easily recognizable.

You cited the BJCP so I assume you accept their list of examples?

Cheers

 

[sweetcell]

Look at the beers pointed out as commercial examples by the BJCP (2015)...
Ichtegem's Oud Bruin, Liefmans Goudenband, Liefmans Oud Bruin, Petrus Oud Bruin, Riva Vondel, and Vanderghinste Bellegems Bruin (Roodbruin).

They are all pretty clearly Brett beers, aged for months-years in oak and blended as is typical for traditional mixed fermentations. The characteristic Brett funk is easily recognizable.

You cited the BJCP so I assume you accept their list of examples?

Cheers

i accept their examples, but i don't accept that they contain brett. in the "Characteristic Ingredients" section, they list sacch and lacto, with a parenthetical for aceto - no mention of brett. they talk about rich malt character, something you're not going to get from a long-aged beer that contains brett. they make no mention of brett characteristics in the Aroma and Flavor sections. there is mention of a possible light diacetyl aroma, again something you're not going to get with an aged brett'ed beer.

the previous beer style in the BJCP guide is flanders red - brett is an accepted part of that style, and it's specifically mentioned in the description.

if you have some reliable info sources that describe any of those beers as having brett, or oud bruin in general having brett, i'd love to learn more.

i also disagree with your assertion that "The characteristic Brett funk is easily recognizable." of the beers on that list i've had 3, and none of those 3 had a brett character IMO.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Fresh malt character is obtained from blending. Pedio can create diacetyl during the aging period.

I'm sorry you can't taste the funk. Have you had Petrus Aged Pale or any of the variants of that? (I love the petrus passion fruit.) The Brett funk should be easier to taste in a pale grist.

Do you think Mike Tonsmeire provides generally accurate info in his book?

Flemish Oud Bruin
Oud bruin recipes tend to be all malt, so an infusion mash is all that is required. After a standard boil, the wort is chilled and pitched with a mixed-culture similar to the ones used for Flemish reds. Other than the differences in their malt characters, the main distinction between the two styles is that the acid character of oud bruins is softer than Flemish reds. The majority of oud bruins are now aged in stainless steel, which eliminates the vinegar character by minimizing oxygen exposure.12 Oud bruins also tend to have a subdued Brettanomyces character, although it is not clear whether this is the result of the microbes used, or the conditions under which they are aged. Brouwerij Liefmans Goudenband is the classic example of the provision-strength variation, i.e., those strong enough to benefit from extended storage. Fermented and aged in stainless steel tanks with a mixed culture (originally from Rodenbach), the finished beer is produced by blending differently aged batches of the same recipe. The result is malty, slightly tart, and rich in dark fruit character. In 1992 the beer was boosted to 8% ABV, which was done to improve its aging potential.13 Other breweries’ methods, like the one Brouwerij Bavik uses for Petrus Oud Bruin, call for blending a wood-aged sour beer with a young, malty beer to provide sweetness.14 Oud bruins serve as the base for fruit beers as well, but most of these are sweetened (sometimes partly artificially), like Liefmans Kriekbier and Frambozenbier.

Info from the breweries themselves:
Ichtegems - "Spontaneous fermentation" in oak for 18 months. Spontaneous in oak = Brett.

Liefmans - "matured in open vats and matured for between four and eight months. The fermentation is [...] restarted by mixing older and younger beers together". Restarting fermentation by blending = Brett.

Petrus - "Petrus Roodbruin is a blend of 33% Petrus Aged Pale, pure foeder beer that has been aged for 2 years in oak foeders, and 67% young brown beer. In this blend, the young dark beer contributes the reddish-brown color and the Aged Pale contributes the slightly sour flavor." The Pale I think more obviously has Brett flavor/aroma.

Riva - They closed or somehow merged with Liefmans.

VanderGhinste - "Blending this beer with lambic beer aged in oak barrels for 18 months, results in this specific West Flanders Red-brown beer." Lambic = Brett.

Cheers

 

[Biobrewer]

TYB Lacto:
They state "We recommend holding the IBU on the low end (< 2-3) if you'd like to use this blend to create acidity in a shorter time frame."
I'm having difficulty finding any reports of people using it in hopped beer. People are stuck on kettle souring.
@Biobrewer Nick, care to weigh in regarding hop tolerance? This question comes up a lot.

0-3 IBU and you'll get rather fast souring, above that and to upwards of 20 IBU, the beer will require more time to produce acidity as the Lactobacillus cultures will be more strongly inhibited by the presence of alpha acids.