Off flavor frustration

[Dadof5]

I need help. I started brewing a little over a year and half ago and immediately was hooked for life. I haven't been able to brew much and in fact only have done 8 extract batches. 2 in the last month after a year hiatus. Life has it's ways. Out of 8...one was good. I've read volumes, listened to hours of podcasts, watched tons of videos trying to understand what I'm doing wrong. I want so bad to make good...really good beer. I need to figure this out before I go all grain. Or go insane!!
I seem to be getting a familiar off flavor especially after a sip or two then when I burp...there it is! This artificial I guess band aid-y hard to describe flavor. The beer ends up with a cider feel/flavor. I bottle, but when I sample before bottling I taste none of this. My bottles are spotless and are sanitized thoroughly with starsan. EVERYTHING is sanitized thoroughly.
I have temp control now, brew with grocery jugs of RO and still the problem persists.
Could my problem be caused by one or both of these? Or something else...

1. I've never made a yeast starter...just rehydrated dry yeast and pitch. (WB-06, US-05)Underpitching?
2. Using chlorinated water for starsan solution?

Please help me. Any input would be much appreciated. Thank you in advance!

 

[cloudybrewer]

I have my own beginner's problems, but I have a question. What are you cleaning the bottles with before sanitizing? You mentioned that you don't taste any of the bad flavors on bottling day, and that it shows up some time during bottle conditioning, correct? So everyone is going to want to know what your bottle cleaning and rinsing regimen looks like.

 

[cloudybrewer]

Also probably how you mix your Star San, and your procedure for making your priming solution.

 

[RevKev]

If you get band-aid you have issues with water specifically chlorine compounds. Highly recommend going to carbon filtered water at least if not reverse osmosis. You either have high levels of chlorine or chloramine in your municipal tap, you should have access to local levels from your municipal source..

I am assuming you are using tap water

This is your issue. Water is the second most important ingredient besides control of yeast

 

[cloudybrewer]

If you get band-aid you have issues with water specifically chlorine compounds. Highly recommend going to carbon filtered water at least if not reverse osmosis. You either have high levels of chlorine or chloramine in your municipal tap, you should have access to local levels from your municipal source..

I am assuming you are using tap water

This is your issue. Water is the second most important ingredient besides control of yeast

But he says the off flavors aren't present on bottling day? If chlorinated water were the culprit, wouldn't the beer taste bad in the fermenter?

 

[RevKev]

But he says the off flavors aren't present on bottling day? If chlorinated water were the culprit, wouldn't the beer taste bad in the fermenter?

Well possible. But if OP used tap water with chlorine compounds to mix star san he may have bottle conditioned results similar to that of primary results

If by cider feel OP means apple flavoring when there shouldn't be apple that's acetaldehyde. And a product of either bad pitching rates or bad temperature control

 

[Dadof5]

I generally use a very small amount of oxyclean free if there is any stubborn build up. They then get rinsed several times with very hot water. Sometimes I can't hold the bottle long they get so hot.

 

[Dadof5]

I mix 1oz per 5gal in a bucket and mix well. Priming sugar is boiled in RO water and cooled then added to bottling bucket.

 

[Dadof5]

So you think the amount of chlorine in my sanitizer solution is enough to cause the issue? It is tap water yes. I've scoured forums trying to find if anyone else has this issue and had it resolved. Maybe Camden to remove chlorine?

 

[Dadof5]

But he says the off flavors aren't present on bottling day? If chlorinated water were the culprit, wouldn't the beer taste bad in the fermenter?

Good point. But would the volume of beer in the fermenter vs bottle in regard to amount of sanitizer be the difference?

 

[Dadof5]

Well possible. But if OP used tap water with chlorine compounds to mix star san he may have bottle conditioned results similar to that of primary results

If by cider feel OP means apple flavoring when there shouldn't be apple that's acetaldehyde. And a product of either bad pitching rates or bad temperature control

I think maybe a combination of both? My taste perception isn't very developed as far as homebrew goes. It has the Apple cider like taste in the background. Not clean tasting at all.

 

[AMessenger]

How young is the beer you're getting this from? A few weeks of age can help a lot with smoothing out the rough edges in a beer in my experience.

Have you sought out a second opinion? I've found there were times where I'd become fixated on a particular aspect of a beer (like the flavor contribution from the alcohol) and then would have trouble seeing the forest for the trees after that. Getting somebody else to weigh in on the various flavors could maybe help you settle down and reset your expectations.

My best advice would be just to brew more. Sounds like you're on the right track with the water and temperature control.

 

[casualbrewer]

Where are you getting the RO water from? Maybe better to go with distilled. LME or DME? How and when do you add extracts? Could be you are getting extract twang as well. Maybe buy a cheap biab set up to see if there is a difference.

 

[Dadof5]

How young is the beer you're getting this from? A few weeks of age can help a lot with smoothing out the rough edges in a beer in my experience.

Have you sought out a second opinion? I've found there were times where I'd become fixated on a particular aspect of a beer (like the flavor contribution from the alcohol) and then would have trouble seeing the forest for the trees after that. Getting somebody else to weigh in on the various flavors could maybe help you settle down and reset your expectations.

My best advice would be just to brew more. Sounds like you're on the right track with the water and temperature control.

Brewing more is the plan. I just want to nail this issue down...or at least have a better understanding of some variables i can control...before I continue.
The latest beer with the issue has been in the bottle for 3 weeks. It's a Northern Brewer hefe. The taste last week was more appealing...not great or clean but appealing... than this week. Had a coworker sample it to see if he could pick out what I was tasting. He Wasn't impressed as expected. It's pretty low alcohol and I couldn't get it to attenuate passed 1.020. Other beers made full attenuation and still tasted similar.

 

[Dadof5]

Where are you getting the RO water from? Maybe better to go with distilled. LME or DME? How and when do you add extracts? Could be you are getting extract twang as well. Maybe buy a cheap biab set up to see if there is a difference.

My water source is grocery store gallon "drinking water" treated via reverse osmosis. I tend to stick with adding most of the LME, DME towards end of boil or flameout. I hear about twang but I don't know of anyone around me that brews that could help me identify it or other flavors. Very frustrating. As soon as u can afford a bigger kettle I'm jumping in to all grain.
Thanks for response. This website is awesome!

 

[cloudybrewer]

So you think the amount of chlorine in my sanitizer solution is enough to cause the issue? It is tap water yes. I've scoured forums trying to find if anyone else has this issue and had it resolved. Maybe Camden to remove chlorine?

Someone much more experienced than me on this forum recommended to mix star San with either RO or distilled water. It eliminates the possibility of coating your brewing gear with chlorine, and she said that the solution will keep longer. Since you're buying water already, definitely buy for this, too.

 

[Dadof5]

Someone much more experienced than me on this forum recommended to mix star San with either RO or distilled water. It eliminates the possibility of coating your brewing gear with chlorine, and she said that the solution will keep longer. Since you're buying water already, definitely buy for this, too.

Thank you cloudybrewer for your input. I've got to believe it's causing an issue due to the fact that everything is coated in it. Carboy, funnel, racking equipment, bottling bucket, bottle filler, bottles...the list goes on. Cheers!

 

[seatazzz]

*WAVES HAND IN THE AIR FRANTICALLY FROM THE BACK OF THE ROOM* What was your wort temperature when you pitched your yeast? I didn't see anything about that in the above, may have missed it, but believe you me if you pitched while your wort was still too warm this is the reason you're getting the "bandaidy" off flavor. I speak from having done this way too many times to count before I finally figured it out.

 

[Dadof5]

*WAVES HAND IN THE AIR FRANTICALLY FROM THE BACK OF THE ROOM* What was your wort temperature when you pitched your yeast? I didn't see anything about that in the above, may have missed it, but believe you me if you pitched while your wort was still too warm this is the reason you're getting the "bandaidy" off flavor. I speak from having done this way too many times to count before I finally figured it out.

Loving the input! This last batch was about 60F, OG 1.050 when I pitched yeast....which was at about 80F. Possibly shocked yeast? Or would that just get things going a little slower? Fermented at 64F until krausen fell then up to 68 for a week. Too much up and down?

 

[RevKev]

Ideally you should chill to pitching temperature. It's kinda like with transferring fish into a tank you have to gradually move them by soaking the bag of water with he fish in the tank prior to taking it out.

This could be an issue, next Brew take it down to 65 or 70°

 

[Dadof5]

Ideally you should chill to pitching temperature. It's kinda like with transferring fish into a tank you have to gradually move them by soaking the bag of water with he fish in the tank prior to taking it out.

This could be an issue, next Brew take it down to 65 or 70°

You mean take the yeast temp down correct? I mean to do a starter this next batch. Would you recommend cold crashing and pitching to a warmer wort or allowing yeast to warm up a bit before the pitch?

 

[RevKev]

I would say the yeast should be ambient room temps but the wort you are pitching into should be at your ideal temp (usually indicated within a range on package). So IPA for me with S04 would be 66°F then I sprinkle my yeast. The small volume of the started vs gallons of wort the temp of yeast solution won't matter once mixed

I think that was a bad analogy above sorry

 

[kh54s10]

Get the wort temperature below 70 degrees before pitching the yeast. Then control the fermentation temperature keeping most yeasts below 70 degrees.

I don't think that there is enough chlorine in a Starsan solution to affect the beer. Unless you are leaving noticeable amounts not just a wet surface. Or unless your municipal water contains a LOT of chlorine.

Get a 5 gallon paint strainer bag and try a small batch BIAB and see if it might be extract twang that you are experiencing. I brew some extracts and have never detected the dreaded twang.

 

[ncbrewer]

I mean to do a starter this next batch.

I wouldn't make a starter if you're still using dried yeast. Opinions vary about it, but the Yeast book doesn't recommend it. And since you're troubleshooting a problem, this would add another variable, which won't solve the problem anyway. Rehydrating dried yeast is a totally acceptable method. And for that matter, switching to liquid yeast probably isn't the answer either. There's lots of great beer brewed with dried yeast.

 

[Dadof5]

I wouldn't make a starter if you're still using dried yeast. Opinions vary about it, but the Yeast book doesn't recommend it. And since you're troubleshooting a problem, this would add another variable, which won't solve the problem anyway. Rehydrating dried yeast is a totally acceptable method. And for that matter, switching to liquid yeast probably isn't the answer either. There's lots of great beer brewed with dried yeast.

Would adding two packs of the dried yeast serve the same purpose as making a starter? Since under pitching is one of my concerns

 

[Dadof5]

I would say the yeast should be ambient room temps but the wort you are pitching into should be at your ideal temp (usually indicated within a range on package). So IPA for me with S04 would be 66°F then I sprinkle my yeast. The small volume of the started vs gallons of wort the temp of yeast solution won't matter once mixed

I think that was a bad analogy above sorry

I got the gist of it. Thank you. And SO4 is the yeast I will be using next. And I'll be pitching two packs.

 

[Dadof5]

Get the wort temperature below 70 degrees before pitching the yeast. Then control the fermentation temperature keeping most yeasts below 70 degrees.

I don't think that there is enough chlorine in a Starsan solution to affect the beer. Unless you are leaving noticeable amounts not just a wet surface. Or unless your municipal water contains a LOT of chlorine.

Get a 5 gallon paint strainer bag and try a small batch BIAB and see if it might be extract twang that you are experiencing. I brew some extracts and have never detected the dreaded twang.

I wish I knew what twang tasted like! Would help to know someone close by that brews so they can sample my swill and help pinpoint my problem. I am overly anxious to start all grain but I feel I gotta work through these variables. Thank you for the input! Soaking it all in.

 

[beermanpete]

My water source is grocery store gallon "drinking water" treated via reverse osmosis. I tend to stick with adding most of the LME, DME towards end of boil or flameout. I hear about twang but I don't know of anyone around me that brews that could help me identify it or other flavors. Very frustrating. As soon as u can afford a bigger kettle I'm jumping in to all grain.
Thanks for response. This website is awesome!

If you are making an extract beer and adding the malt extract at the end of the boil what is in the kettle at the beginning of the boil?

 

[Dadof5]

If you are making an extract beer and adding the malt extract at the end of the boil what is in the kettle at the beginning of the boil?

I always add a portion of the LME or DME up front. Then the rest at the end. Keeps the final product from getting too dark...for lighter color styles of course.

 

[seatazzz]

If your pitching temp seems to be right, I would next look at your thermometer. Is it calibrated? Sounds like you've got your water profile dialed in, next you should go a step deeper and see if your equipment may be off. After a lot of research, I've found that the only things that can cause that particular "off" flavor are too much chlorine/chloramines in the water and yeast pitching temp. Even if your starter was a little warm, if you pitched it into <70 wort it shouldn't have caused that much of an off flavor.

 

[Dadof5]

If your pitching temp seems to be right, I would next look at your thermometer. Is it calibrated? Sounds like you've got your water profile dialed in, next you should go a step deeper and see if your equipment may be off. After a lot of research, I've found that the only things that can cause that particular "off" flavor are too much chlorine/chloramines in the water and yeast pitching temp. Even if your starter was a little warm, if you pitched it into <70 wort it shouldn't have caused that much of an off flavor.

Yes, I'm confident my thermometer is good. I'm going to start by eliminating the chlorine factor and pitching more yeast. I keep finding mixed views on the chlorinated water for starsan solution. But I personally have to believe that the beer coming into contact with it through every step of my process has to have a negative impact. Possibly coupled with not enough yeast. Does it make sense? I need to make good beer! Ugh! Seatazzz, thanks for your help!

 

[dsaavedra]

I just sampled a couple bottles of an American premium lager that I bottled a couple weeks ago. Tasted great during packaging and when I tasted a bottle after 3 weeks at room temp (high 70s/low80's) and 1 week in the fridge, all I could taste was green apple. Tasted like cider as you described. I've had this happen with other pale, delicately flavored beers like pilsners.

I suspect it's a result of the bottle conditioning. Maybe I had my bottles at too high of a temperature and the bottle fermentation produced a fair amount of acetaldehyde that has nowhere to go. I also recall reading that acetaldehyde can be a result of oxidation, something that I think it virtually unavoidable when bottling. Thankfully I'm working on transitioning to kegging all my beer.

I'm interested to see some more suggestions from this thread!

 

[Dadof5]

I just sampled a couple bottles of an American premium lager that I bottled a couple weeks ago. Tasted great during packaging and when I tasted a bottle after 3 weeks at room temp (high 70s/low80's) and 1 week in the fridge, all I could taste was green apple. Tasted like cider as you described. I've had this happen with other pale, delicately flavored beers like pilsners.

I suspect it's a result of the bottle conditioning. Maybe I had my bottles at too high of a temperature and the bottle fermentation produced a fair amount of acetaldehyde that has nowhere to go. I also recall reading that acetaldehyde can be a result of oxidation, something that I think it virtually unavoidable when bottling. Thankfully I'm working on transitioning to kegging all my beer.

I'm interested to see some more suggestions from this thread!

Does oxidation occur that quickly? I have no idea. I'm almost afraid to ask because i might not like the answer, but how much yeast do you pitch? Do you make a starter?

 

[dsaavedra]

Does oxidation occur that quickly? I have no idea. I'm almost afraid to ask because i might not like the answer, but how much yeast do you pitch? Do you make a starter?

Not sure if oxidation shows up in as little as 4 weeks but I wouldn't write it off, especially in the light, delicately flavored beers I've had problems with - off flavors have nowhere to hide! I do know that I am planning on brewing the exact same recipe again and kegging it to see if the flavor persists.

For the pilsner I made a starter something like 3 liters, for the premium lager I made a starter of 2 liters (only pitched like 1.5 liters - saved the rest for next time). I'd say the premium was probably underpitched, but that one I aerated with pure O2 for a minute or so, so I figured an underpitch wouldn't be the end of the world.

 

[Bilsch]

I seem to be getting a familiar off flavor especially after a sip or two then when I burp...there it is! This artificial I guess band aid-y hard to describe flavor. The beer ends up with a cider feel/flavor. I bottle, but when I sample before bottling I taste none of this.

Sounds like simple over carbonation to me.

 

[Dadof5]

Not sure if oxidation shows up in as little as 4 weeks but I wouldn't write it off, especially in the light, delicately flavored beers I've had problems with - off flavors have nowhere to hide! I do know that I am planning on brewing the exact same recipe again and kegging it to see if the flavor persists.

For the pilsner I made a starter something like 3 liters, for the premium lager I made a starter of 2 liters (only pitched like 1.5 liters - saved the rest for next time). I'd say the premium was probably underpitched, but that one I aerated with pure O2 for a minute or so, so I figured an underpitch wouldn't be the end of the world.

Awwww crap. Well maybe that's good news for me. It may narrow my issue down to the chlorine as the culprit. I'll still pitch more yeast as that can't hurt. And i found an aquarium pump that i thought I'd gotten rid of. Just need some syringe filters and a stone and I can aerate also.

 

[Bilsch]

I also recall reading that acetaldehyde can be a result of oxidation, something that I think it virtually unavoidable when bottling.

Oxidation during bottling is avoidable. Look up fermenter priming or bottle spunding if your interested in low oxygen packaging.

 

[Dadof5]

Sounds like simple over carbonation to me.

This I also looked in to. But when I run my numbers through a priming calculator, the results show I'm under. I used over an ounce less than suggested in this last brew.

 

[ReaperOnefour]

The cider taste could be from tossing the bottles into the fridge, before they are fully carbonated. When you do that the yeast fall asleep, & you end up with that acetelyde taste. I always carb them up for 3-4 weeks before throwing them in the fridge.

 

[cloudybrewer]

I really feel your pain. My scenario is very similar to yours:

Been brewing for a year and a half.
6 batches in.
Took an eight month break after batch three when work got too crazy and kid 3 was born.
Only one good batch so far.

But my problems are different than yours. My beer goes to **** in the fermenter, even with a proper pitch and a homemade fermentation chamber with a temp controller.

I won't give up if you don't!