not fussel, but warming alcohol flavor

[zodiak3000]

recently brewed an imperial red with OG 1.077. at about 3 weeks in keg ive noticed some alcohol flavors, but only really in the throat/chest. the flavor tastes great still, so it doesnt seem like hot fussels or phenols. still, the alcohol flavor kinda detracts from the good flavors at times. i had problems in the past with fussels/phenols from pitching too warm. this got pitched at 63 and was kept during fermentation temp controlled. i understand this can be norma to get some booze with big OGl, but ive had bigger beers with less booze in the throat. also, made a huge starter for this. a few things that i think might be the cause I listed below, but im open to suggestions-

- lost some yeast during fermentation in blow-off tube, maybe stressed yeast mid-fermentation or lost cells?

- using RO water from glacier water machine, adjusting sulfate and chloride to about 80 ppm of each. i doubt this is the problem, but not sure.

what bothers me is the beer tasted great initially, then at 3 weeks i get these flavors. this is reoccurring from the same fussel/phenol beers....great at the beginning, unwanted flavors at 3 weeks in keg. what could be causing this? while this is much better, im still getting booze. thinking about brewing some low OG beers to see if it goes away, just not sure the problem...

 

[TipsyDragon]

A few things come to mind. How "huge" of a starter? What did you use to doctor the RO water? What was the Calcium, residual alcalinity, and original alkalinity of the water after treatment? Did you use a yeast nutrient in the wort? How much did you areate and when?

 

[zodiak3000]

A few things come to mind. How "huge" of a starter? What did you use to doctor the RO water? What was the Calcium, residual alcalinity, and original alkalinity of the water after treatment? Did you use a yeast nutrient in the wort? How much did you areate and when?

- starter via mr malty
- just using RO water from a glacier water machine, adding calcium chloride and sulfate evenly to reach about 80 ppm. doing this using a brewers friend calculator and a scale.
- i dont use yeast nutrient much anymore, never noticed changes in problems or benefits

- usually aerate by transfering from ball valve kettle to carboy. this generates a lot of foam. could probably use more oxygenation, but havent had problems in the past

 

[TipsyDragon]

It sounds like you have more than enough calcium. Not sure about alkalinity and residual alkalinity. I don't have my notes with me right now. Yeast need zinc for proper fermentation. This usually comes from the water but RO strips that out. Yeast nutrient adds it back. Also I would recommend aerating a beer that big with pure O2 for about a minute at the beginning of fermentation and again 12-18 hours later.

 

[TipsyDragon]

After doing the math I found your residual alkalinity is about -56.14ppm CaCO3. The target range for a red ale is between 0 and 60. To get your water profile up to the middle of that range you need to add about 0.33 g/gallon pickling lime (calcium hydroxide). Don't know if this has anything to do with your problem but it's still good to know.

Also for an ordinary red, not an imperial red, the recommended range for sulphate is 100-300ppm. Since your calcium levels are within range for the style I would recommend 1.17g/gallon MaSO (Epsom salt) to again hit the middle of the range. This will raise your lime addition to 0.41g/gal to account for the added hardness from the magnesium.

 

[RM-MN]

3 weeks in the keg for an imperial might be part of the problem too. Try it again in 3 months as your high alcohol beer has a chance to mature properly.

 

[JLem]

3 weeks in the keg for an imperial might be part of the problem too. Try it again in 3 months as your high alcohol beer has a chance to mature properly.

^This...with an OG of 1.077, you're going to end up with a fair amount of alcohol (I'm guessing ~8% or so depending on your FG)...fusel or not, you're still going to feel/taste the alcohol..especially early on like this. Give it more time to mellow

 

[grathan]

It's possible that yeast has settled changing the flavor some, or even some hop flavors have faded revealing more of the alcohol flavor.

Also possible is oxidation. This is something I am currently struggling with. Just curious if you cold-crashed and how much head space there was in your fermenter?

 

[zodiak3000]

After doing the math I found your residual alkalinity is about -56.14ppm CaCO3. The target range for a red ale is between 0 and 60. To get your water profile up to the middle of that range you need to add about 0.33 g/gallon pickling lime (calcium hydroxide). Don't know if this has anything to do with your problem but it's still good to know.

Also for an ordinary red, not an imperial red, the recommended range for sulphate is 100-300ppm. Since your calcium levels are within range for the style I would recommend 1.17g/gallon MaSO (Epsom salt) to again hit the middle of the range. This will raise your lime addition to 0.41g/gal to account for the added hardness from the magnesium.

thanks! do you have a source i can use for calculating this in the future?

 

[zodiak3000]

It's possible that yeast has settled changing the flavor some, or even some hop flavors have faded revealing more of the alcohol flavor.

Also possible is oxidation. This is something I am currently struggling with. Just curious if you cold-crashed and how much head space there was in your fermenter?

i did cold crash for 24 hours, 5 gallons in 6.5 glass carboy with a sealed carboy cap...never had problems in the past.