New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[GnenieGone]

My process lately has been this:
*6 ounce dry hop in primary
*2 days before kegging, carry fermenter downstairs and put on counter top to settle
*Fill Keg with star san, push it out with CO2
*Leave CO2 hooked up with 1-2lbs pressure
*Vent keg, pop the lid off, put tubing from fermenter to bottom of keg.
*Set lid back over keg opening
*CO2 is still on very low
*Fill via gravity from fermenter spigot to bottom of keg.
*When done, put lid back on, up pressure, seat lid, vent small head space 5-6 times to hopefully clear out as much O2 as possible.

I know this is not 100% oxygen free or anything...... but, it greatly reduces exposure and has seemed to work quite well.

We're having a discussion on the Pliny the Elder thread. Several of us have a long going issue with our heavy hopped IPAs and kegging. After a few days, we sometimes notice a butter type flavor developing. It's not present after primary. Only with ipas tho. Not stouts, not hard lemonaids, not belgiums..ect. Have you had anything like this Brau??

 

[grassfeeder]

My process lately has been this:
*6 ounce dry hop in primary
*2 days before kegging, carry fermenter downstairs and put on counter top to settle
*Fill Keg with star san, push it out with CO2
*Leave CO2 hooked up with 1-2lbs pressure
*Vent keg, pop the lid off, put tubing from fermenter to bottom of keg.
*Set lid back over keg opening
*CO2 is still on very low
*Fill via gravity from fermenter spigot to bottom of keg.
*When done, put lid back on, up pressure, seat lid, vent small head space 5-6 times to hopefully clear out as much O2 as possible.

I know this is not 100% oxygen free or anything...... but, it greatly reduces exposure and has seemed to work quite well.

Why not do this but after you push out the CO2, leave the keg under light pressure and vent, instead of popping off the lid, gravity feed it from the fermenter spigot directly into the kegs line up so it fills from the bottom up with no splash and O2 exposure. That way your lid never pops.

 

[braindead]

Starter on stir plate : )

 

[grassfeeder]

definitely. I make a starter for every beer I brew.

I do if using White Labs or Wyeast. If my beers are 1.070 or less I've been able to get away without a starter when using Imperial Yeast. They've got a great selection for the NEIPA's from their Barbarian, Citrus, DryHop and Juice strains....

 

[beskone]

Why not do this but after you push out the CO2, leave the keg under light pressure and vent, instead of popping off the lid, gravity feed it from the fermenter spigot directly into the kegs line up so it fills from the bottom up with no splash and O2 exposure. That way your lid never pops.

This.

I force transfer from fermenter to kegs "out" post, after pushing out a full 5 gallons of star san. I just leave the pressure valve open so the beer racks in the bottom and pushes the C02 out. Close relief valve, purge 10 times @20psi and all done!

 

[Braufessor]

Why not do this but after you push out the CO2, leave the keg under light pressure and vent, instead of popping off the lid, gravity feed it from the fermenter spigot directly into the kegs line up so it fills from the bottom up with no splash and O2 exposure. That way your lid never pops.

Because I have always had a hell of a time getting this to actually work - especially with heavily dry hopped beers. Best case scenarios it has taken 20 minutes to actually work. Worst case scenarios I have had plugged spigots and it would not drain completely and I ended up taking the lid off any way. Popping the lid and draining with a tube lets me do transfer in 5 minutes or less.

* I even took the guts out of the liquid disconnect and post and still had problems..... this also made me wonder if I was actually letting air in with the guts taken out which might make for an incomplete seal.

Just easier, faster, more consistent - and, with the precautions I take, I have had results I am satisfied with.

*Plus, my fermenters are not set up to pressurize, so it is just straight gravity.

 

[Braufessor]

We're having a discussion on the Pliny the Elder thread. Several of us have a long going issue with our heavy hopped IPAs and kegging. After a few days, we sometimes notice a butter type flavor developing. It's not present after primary. Only with ipas tho. Not stouts, not hard lemonaids, not belgiums..ect. Have you had anything like this Brau??

Absolutely - Diacetyl.....
It can be a real pain in the ass in Heavily dry hopped beers. I have talked to multiple professional brewers who have had this same problem. Beer tastes great after primary, dry hop it and all of a sudden it goes to total crap. I have tasted beer in a local brewery out of the fermenter that was outstanding. 2-3 days later after dry hopping it had turned into a diacetyl bomb. Can be very frustrating.

I know a few instances where people thought they really had the problem in conjunction with US05 (not sure why - could have been as simple as that happened to be the yeast they were using at the time).

One of the speakers at NHC this year mentioned this a little bit in one of the talks and said there had been some recent research in the area (it is a real thing). I believe they were attributing it to the fact that there are sugars in the dry hops and that addition was kicking off the diacetyl production. I will have to go back and check out that talk when they are all posted on the NHC site.

 

[no_borders]

careful with the denali in dry hop. very powerful pineapple flavor

I know it may be off putting to some but I absolutely love denali. The last single hop was 100% denali, with 4 oz in the whirl and 4 in the dryhop. The lot I have has this super dank quality on top of the pineapple.

Also a side note, as soon as I posted that picture my mash stuck on me and totally screwed my efficiency. Spoke too soon I guess. Luckily I don't mind session IPAs :smack:

 

[no_borders]

Absolutely - Diacetyl.....
It can be a real pain in the ass in Heavily dry hopped beers. I have talked to multiple professional brewers who have had this same problem. Beer tastes great after primary, dry hop it and all of a sudden it goes to total crap. I have tasted beer in a local brewery out of the fermenter that was outstanding. 2-3 days later after dry hopping it had turned into a diacetyl bomb. Can be very frustrating.

I know a few instances where people thought they really had the problem in conjunction with US05 (not sure why - could have been as simple as that happened to be the yeast they were using at the time).

One of the speakers at NHC this year mentioned this a little bit in one of the talks and said there had been some recent research in the area (it is a real thing). I believe they were attributing it to the fact that there are sugars in the dry hops and that addition was kicking off the diacetyl production. I will have to go back and check out that talk when they are all posted on the NHC site.

I wonder if it has anything to with o2 exposure. When you first pull a sample it tastes great because the pre cursors haven't oxidized into diacetyl yet, but once the fermenter is opened that's all she wrote.

I had the same issue with lagers when I first started trying to brew them. Samples would taste fine, and as soon as I transferred to a keg, it became a better popcorn topping than a beer. The book "yeast" shows a way to do a forced diacetyl test that really helped me out in deciding to keep beer on the yeast longer, or increase temp to combat the problem.

 

[stickyfinger]

Absolutely - Diacetyl.....
It can be a real pain in the ass in Heavily dry hopped beers. I have talked to multiple professional brewers who have had this same problem. Beer tastes great after primary, dry hop it and all of a sudden it goes to total crap. I have tasted beer in a local brewery out of the fermenter that was outstanding. 2-3 days later after dry hopping it had turned into a diacetyl bomb. Can be very frustrating.

I know a few instances where people thought they really had the problem in conjunction with US05 (not sure why - could have been as simple as that happened to be the yeast they were using at the time).

One of the speakers at NHC this year mentioned this a little bit in one of the talks and said there had been some recent research in the area (it is a real thing). I believe they were attributing it to the fact that there are sugars in the dry hops and that addition was kicking off the diacetyl production. I will have to go back and check out that talk when they are all posted on the NHC site.

wow! very cool info. please tell us all you know. this IS a real problem. i am suffering from it lately. maybe an extended diacetyl rest is the key and fewer dry hops in the primary. never had it happen with 1 oz/gal or less in the dry hop

 

[GnenieGone]

Thanks Braufessor!

I've heard the 05 connection also. I'm bottling this current high hopped version. So we'll see.

 

[stickyfinger]

Brau, what day do you add the 6 oz to primary and on what day do you rack to keg? Is that pretty standardized? When was the last time you had diacetyl after dry hop/kegging?

 

[WiscoBrewer]

I was wondering if anyone has done any experimentation with pitch rates? I would be curious to see if overpitching effects biotransformation, and how. On the flip side, underpitching to coax more ester production.

 

[stickyfinger]

Thanks Braufessor!

I've heard the 05 connection also. I'm bottling this current high hopped version. So we'll see.

I used to think it was US-05 as well, then had it happen with WY1056 as well. It may be more susceptible to it though, or it may be that Chico is the most used yeast in the US, especially in IPA, so it just happens more in beers made with it coincidentally. It's never happened to my when I've used WLP095, Burlington ale yeast, and I've done some obscene dry hopping with it.

It's happened to me using US-05, WY1056, WLP002 and WY1318.

EDIT: Sorry, I mis-typed! It has happened with US-05, WY1056, WLP002 and OYL-057, NOT with WY1318.

 

[stickyfinger]

I was wondering if anyone has done any experimentation with pitch rates? I would be curious to see if overpitching effects biotransformation, and how. On the flip side, underpitching to coax more ester production.

I've heard that Kimmich at the Alchemist uses what we would consider an underpitch in his beers, maybe to get more esters? Whatever he is doing, it is working amazingly well!

 

[Braufessor]

wow! very cool info. please tell us all you know. this IS a real problem. i am suffering from it lately. maybe an extended diacetyl rest is the key and fewer dry hops in the primary. never had it happen with 1 oz/gal or less in the dry hop

When are you dry hopping? I am wondering if an earlier dry hop (even like I have done the past few batches with 6 ounces on day 2) would eliminate it as the yeast would still be very active.

I, personally, have not had much of a problem with this. When I have - ironically - it was with a pliny/Hop Fu type recipes where I was doing the dry hop later in more traditional west coast fashion. Perhaps the fact that they yeast was kind of "done" at this point is one of the problems??? I know the local brewery that was fighting this was fighting it in a more traditional IPA as well..... perhaps the super high hopping works better when the yeast are still very active, and less well when the yeast are out of suspension and can't get rid of the diacetyl????
When that talk is up on AHA I will go back and check it out in more detail - I know it had something to do with the reintroduction of "sugar" that is present in hop material.... Perhaps the cryohops would help this as well as they require half as much...?

 

[milldoggy]

My latest. Using 2565 Kölsch yeast at 62f.

http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/1563415/6-17-ne-base-ipa

Just an update. Kegged last night. Amazing. Perfect orange color, no bitterness, tasted like juice.

Had all sorts of issues kegging though. Used a pressurized purged keg. The disconnects clogged, remove their guts, worked for a while and stopped. Ended up just poping the top and putting the hose in the keg. Then thought about all the junk in the keg, so I used my autosiphon inside my 300 micron hop tube and transfered to another keg. Just hope I did not ruin with all the splashing and transferring.

To prevent it in the future, thinking about getting on of these.

http://arborfab.com/12-Inline-Sanitary-Filter_p_114.html

Anybody else use an inline filter?

 

[GnenieGone]

I used to think it was US-05 as well, then had it happen with WY1056 as well. It may be more susceptible to it though, or it may be that Chico is the most used yeast in the US, especially in IPA, so it just happens more in beers made with it coincidentally. It's never happened to my when I've used WLP095, Burlington ale yeast, and I've done some obscene dry hopping with it.

It's happened to me using US-05, WY1056, WLP002 and WY1318.

Well the current batch of 1098 is "on the clock". My next batch will be 1318, so I'll see. But again I'm bottling these..although I've picked out a chest freezer for keggorator conversion. Humm, maybe I should order it while thinking about it.

 

[Braufessor]

Just an update. Kegged last night. Amazing. Perfect orange color, no bitterness, tasted like juice.

Had all sorts of issues kegging though. Used a pressurized purged keg. The disconnects clogged, remove their guts, worked for a while and stopped. Ended up just poping the top and putting the hose in the keg. Then thought about all the junk in the keg, so I used my autosiphon inside my 300 micron hop tube and transfered to another keg. Just hope I did not ruin with all the splashing and transferring.

To prevent it in the future, thinking about getting on of these.

http://arborfab.com/12-Inline-Sanitary-Filter_p_114.html

Anybody else use an inline filter?

I have had those same issues..... which is why I just have gone to gravity from fermenter to keg with lid off.
I would think a filter would plug up something terrible..... never tried it..... just don't see how liquid would flow when the hop particles started to build up on filter.

 

[stickyfinger]

When are you dry hopping? I am wondering if an earlier dry hop (even like I have done the past few batches with 6 ounces on day 2) would eliminate it as the yeast would still be very active.

I, personally, have not had much of a problem with this. When I have - ironically - it was with a pliny/Hop Fu type recipes where I was doing the dry hop later in more traditional west coast fashion. Perhaps the fact that they yeast was kind of "done" at this point is one of the problems??? I know the local brewery that was fighting this was fighting it in a more traditional IPA as well..... perhaps the super high hopping works better when the yeast are still very active, and less well when the yeast are out of suspension and can't get rid of the diacetyl????
When that talk is up on AHA I will go back and check it out in more detail - I know it had something to do with the reintroduction of "sugar" that is present in hop material.... Perhaps the cryohops would help this as well as they require half as much...?

Unfortunately, I just had it happen in a beer with WLP002, and I dry hopped that on day 2, as it was a super attenuator and was dropping back big time in only 2 days. I then let it sit like an additional 8 days, and then let it chill overnight. It tasted amazing as I was putting it into the keg, and then after 1 and especially 2 days in the keg, I could taste some diacetyl. It just ruins the beer.

I am so super stoked to use Cryohops! However, I don't want to buy them and get another diacetyl bomb. Maybe I'll try a few more IPAs with WLP095 and some hops I've been meaning to try in my freezer. If they all work out, I'll get some Cryohops and experiment with them.

 

[Braufessor]

Unfortunately, I just had it happen in a beer with WLP002, and I dry hopped that on day 2, as it was a super attenuator and was dropping back big time in only 2 days. I then let it sit like an additional 8 days, and then let it chill overnight. It tasted amazing as I was putting it into the keg, and then after 1 and especially 2 days in the keg, I could taste some diacetyl. It just ruins the beer.

I am so super stoked to use Cryohops! However, I don't want to buy them and get another diacetyl bomb. Maybe I'll try a few more IPAs with WLP095 and some hops I've been meaning to try in my freezer. If they all work out, I'll get some Cryohops and experiment with them.

002 is another yeast that drops like a rock..... wondering if US 05, 1056, etc.... they all drop out. Perhaps the yeast that stays in suspension better takes care of it.
When I have diacetyl I pu the keg out at room temp for 5 days or so and vent a couple times. Usually it clears it up.

 

[stickyfinger]

002 is another yeast that drops like a rock..... wondering if US 05, 1056, etc.... they all drop out. Perhaps the yeast that stays in suspension better takes care of it.

When I have diacetyl I pu the keg out at room temp for 5 days or so and vent a couple times. Usually it clears it up.

good idea. that is possible. wy1318 is super non flocculant and wlp095 holds its own

 

[stickyfinger]

002 is another yeast that drops like a rock..... wondering if US 05, 1056, etc.... they all drop out. Perhaps the yeast that stays in suspension better takes care of it.
When I have diacetyl I pu the keg out at room temp for 5 days or so and vent a couple times. Usually it clears it up.

oh, i tried to fix a couple of the beers by warming them up, but they taste weird after re-chilling. they're just lost at this point. I did think about throwing in some Brett and racking them to a carboy to see what happens.

 

[Braufessor]

oh, i tried to fix a couple of the beers by warming them up, but they taste weird after re-chilling. they're just lost at this point. I did think about throwing in some Brett and racking them to a carboy to see what happens.

I agree - I have always had better luck getting diacetyl out of lagers than IPAs. I could very much see the less flocculent yeast being a key to warding this type of thing off though.
Worth a try to try brett or similar, before you dump them. Brett Claussenii is what I have found to work best for this purpose.... it gives a nice tropical fruit type flavor. Most of what I have done in this circumstance is to add 1-2ml of brett c to each bottle and bottle them and set them aside for a couple months and come back to them. I have ended up with some really great beers doing this. Primarily, these have been more saison type beers where I was not pleased with primary ferment and bottled them with brett. However, I could see it working well with a beer like this too.
Another possible option is Funk Weapon #2 from Bootleg Biology.

 

[milldoggy]

I have had those same issues..... which is why I just have gone to gravity from fermenter to keg with lid off.
I would think a filter would plug up something terrible..... never tried it..... just don't see how liquid would flow when the hop particles started to build up on filter.

I did not get a ton of debris, just enough to cause issues. I use pressure to transfer, so wondering if this will help. Can also remove the filter and clean.

Maybe I need to purchase as a research item.

 

[Braufessor]

Brau, what day do you add the 6 oz to primary and on what day do you rack to keg? Is that pretty standardized? When was the last time you had diacetyl after dry hop/kegging?

I have varied..... Day 2-3-4..... I did a few batches at Day 2 that turned out pretty nice. Of course, just dry hopped a batch today at Day 5 because I lost track of time.....
Ideally, I would like to error on the early side a bit as opposed to throwing them after fermentation is done. So... day 3-4 would probably be about ideal. Then, rack to keg on day 10-12 probably.

 

[brewski09]

thanks for feedback guys. I got em out, hopefully the taste clears up.

I think that's just the azacca hop that tastes that way

 

[cheesebach]

I think that's just the azacca hop that tastes that way

That's interesting - I hadn't heard of that being an issue specific to azacca before, but I brewed a NEIPA with azacca/citra/mosaic at a 1.5:1:1 ratio a bit over a month ago. I split the wort and fermented half with 1318 and half with Conan. Surprisingly to me, the batch fermented with 1318 had a harsh bitterness similar to what was described, but the Conan batch is smooth and delicious. The Conan batch was preferred unanimously by the 8 of my friends that have tried it, despite the 1318 having a bit better visual appeal from its more "juice-like" appearance.

Might give 1318 another go with a different hop combo in a future batch, since I can't imagine so many people using that yeast with these beers if what I observed in mine is typical. None of the LHBS in Austin carry any conan varieties that I'm aware of, so I was kind of hoping I'd prefer the 1318 fermented batch.

 

[droder1]

I have had those same issues..... which is why I just have gone to gravity from fermenter to keg with lid off.

I would think a filter would plug up something terrible..... never tried it..... just don't see how liquid would flow when the hop particles started to build up on filter.

Add me to this camp. I have tried the fully closed transfers many a time and just end up clogging the poppets (even stainless steel poppets I thought looked a little bigger).

How the hell do people avoid this? I hate going through the trouble of Star san water purging a keg just to have to pop the lid because the damn poppets clog. If you dry hop in the primary it seems inevitable, even if you can push with co2.

Maybe keg hop is the solution. Water purge, push to keg, pop top quickly after filled and dump in hops and seal up and purge again...

 

[jakturner]

Add me to this camp. I have tried the fully closed transfers many a time and just end up clogging the poppets (even stainless steel poppets I thought looked a little bigger).

How the hell do people avoid this? I hate going through the trouble of Star san water purging a keg just to have to pop the lid because the damn poppets clog. If you dry hop in the primary it seems inevitable, even if you can push with co2.

Maybe keg hop is the solution. Water purge, push to keg, pop top quickly after filled and dump in hops and seal up and purge again...

I was having this problem too, trying to push via co2 from a carboy. This last batch I ferment in a corny keg with a home made floating dip tube, cold crashed keg over night then jumped to a water purged keg. You can stop the flow when you can see hop particles coming threw. I make 3.5 gallon batchs and doing this method I filled a 3 gallon corny till I flowed out the PRV, so no need to purge after and only lost 1/2 gallon of beer to 4ozs of dry hop

 

[runs4beer]

Add me to this camp. I have tried the fully closed transfers many a time and just end up clogging the poppets (even stainless steel poppets I thought looked a little bigger).

How the hell do people avoid this? I hate going through the trouble of Star san water purging a keg just to have to pop the lid because the damn poppets clog. If you dry hop in the primary it seems inevitable, even if you can push with co2.

Maybe keg hop is the solution. Water purge, push to keg, pop top quickly after filled and dump in hops and seal up and purge again...

I made this short Video for a friend who was have the same issue with clogging with hops.
What I'm doing differently it seems to avoid a clog is NOT using the keg posts or disconnects but vinyl tubes and hoseclamps on the out post.
I'm far from a quality narrator and my discription of how I pre-purge everything is not helpful at all so I try again:
First I purge the line running from the Co2 tank to the carboy. Next I attach that line to the carboy cap with the racking cane in the carboy but NOT down in the beer. The intake of the cane stays in the headspace in the carboy pushing Co2 into the line leading to the keg. Once all the starsan is pushed from the keg slowly slide the dip tube down into the keg and start pushing the beer on the the keg.
https://mega.nz/#!NdAGjIrJ!ZGpbMh1B9qGXWZwQLGZqe2wQtVC9ydx-lnAzCvTaWEI

 

[EndOfLine]

The diacetyl issue after dry hopping "seems" to be related mostly with the yeast 05, (at least in this thread) not other Chico strains.

I still wonder if the dry hopping with ALOT of hops, with certain yeast strains, raises the post ferm PH during diacetyl rests, causing the yeast to be stressed.

This may cause the yeast, that is already in a hostile environment (alcohol) to leach out D? This is entirely my speculation by the way.

 

[Braufessor]

The diacetyl issue after dry hopping "seems" to be related mostly with the yeast 05, (at least in this thread) not other Chico strains.

I still wonder if the dry hopping with ALOT of hops, with certain yeast strains, raises the post ferm PH during diacetyl rests, causing the yeast to be stressed.

This may cause the yeast, that is already in a hostile environment (alcohol) to leach out D? This is entirely my speculation by the way.

I am almost positive that it is a documented fact that it does elevate pH..... what impact that has on this issue, I am not sure.

 

[EndOfLine]

I am almost positive that it is a documented fact that it does elevate pH..... what impact that has on this issue, I am not sure.

When I was at this years craft beer conference in DC. I went to a dry hopping seminar. I think I recall that depending on how many dry hops per barrel you add the PH can raise .2-.5 which is ALOT!! I'll double check my notes

 

[stickyfinger]

pH and diacetyl:

http://byo.com/bock/item/546-diacetyl-homebrew-science

Looks like it may be that the conversion of the precursor is slower at higher pH. That *could* mean that though we think the diacetyl threat is gone when we rack, it is still slowly being created and continues to be after we rack to keg and basically make the yeast go dormant. Perhaps if we mash at a lower pH or adjust the kettle pH to a lower level, we can push the final beer pH a bit lower and speed up the conversion to diacetyl so the yeast can get rid of all of it. Brau, I think you measured your kettle pH for a long time. What do you target for that?

 

[stickyfinger]

pH and diacetyl:

http://byo.com/bock/item/546-diacetyl-homebrew-science

Looks like it may be that the conversion of the precursor is slower at higher pH. That *could* mean that though we think the diacetyl threat is gone when we rack, it is still slowly being created and continues to be after we rack to keg and basically make the yeast go dormant. Perhaps if we mash at a lower pH or adjust the kettle pH to a lower level, we can push the final beer pH a bit lower and speed up the conversion to diacetyl so the yeast can get rid of all of it. Brau, I think you measured your kettle pH for a long time. What do you target for that?

Or, it would seem to indicate that it might be better to dry hop later in the fermentation so that the diacetyl is mostly gone. That doesn't alleviate the problem of more diacetyl being produced as the yeast are "awakened" by any thing going on with adding the dry hops (eg release of sugars or some amylase activity from the hops.)

 

[EndOfLine]

Or, it would seem to indicate that it might be better to dry hop later in the fermentation so that the diacetyl is mostly gone. That doesn't alleviate the problem of more diacetyl being produced as the yeast are "awakened" by any thing going on with adding the dry hops (eg release of sugars or some amylase activity from the hops.)

Actually I was thinking the opposite: Dry hopping before primary while the yeast is acidifying the wort during the lag phase, may be best? the yeast is trying make its environment ideal for fermentation (acidification) then goes though all of these processes to ferment and condition our beer. The last step being diacetyl rest. Now imagine (in theory) a sudden explosion in their environment, (dry hopping) changing it to a more stressful one. The yeast may not want to absorb diacetyl any more.

 

[Braufessor]

Pretty sure this is normal...... right?

 

[GnenieGone]

Pretty sure this is normal...... right?

Love it! Do you notice any real difference between plastic and SS fermentation buckets as far as quality, off flavors, etc?

 

[no_borders]

Latest single hop brew, 100% Columbus this time around. Very very different from the simcoe batch and the denali batch. I do really like this hop, it reminds me of the super dry grapefruity west coast IPAs that were all the rage when I first started brewing.

With that said I think it would really benefit from being blended with other hops. The simcoe and denali batches worked really well by themselves, and showed great potential when being blended. But I think Columbus needs a little more push from something else to really shine in a NE style hoppy beer.

All criticism aside what she brings to the table is awesome. Clean bitter, deep grapefruit with a nice dank quality. A solid edition of my single hop regimen and I'm really happy with the results