New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[beervoid]

At a side note.. Just wanted to throw this review in there for the No Oats / No Wheat discussion. Note the remarks of him that it misses that juicyness and creamy mouthfeel. Could be just their process is going down or the reviewer being palette fatigued but nonetheless an interesting observation.

This is a trillium beer made with
ABV: 6.8%
MALT: Pale Malt, Honey Malt, Victory Malt
HOPS: Mosaic

 

[leesmith]

At a side note.. Just wanted to throw this review in there for the No Oats / No Wheat discussion. Note the remarks of him that it misses that juicyness and creamy mouthfeel. Could be just their process is going down or the reviewer being palette fatigued but nonetheless an interesting observation.

This is a trillium beer made with
ABV: 6.8%
MALT: Pale Malt, Honey Malt, Victory Malt
HOPS: Mosaic

Soft and and pillowy (words from Trillium description) is not the same a juicy and creamy....so maybe they weren’t going for that?

Also...what’s everyone’s thoughts on beer being a fresh product? And there only being a small window of prime flavor...aroma...mouth feel? I’m ok with it. Chasing a lasting haze in a beer that may only be peak for a few days is a little counterintuitive to some degree.

 

[beervoid]

Soft and and pillowy (words from Trillium description) is not the same a juicy and creamy....so maybe they weren’t going for that?

Also...what’s everyone’s thoughts on beer being a fresh product? And there only being a small window of prime flavor...aroma...mouth feel? I’m ok with it. Chasing a lasting haze in a beer that may only be peak for a few days is a little counterintuitive to some degree.

So far most neipa i've had had a stable haze. Most where not older then 3 months.
I do taste a difference when they are fresh and you poor the bottom of settled debris vs an old one with settled debris. The old ones I prefer to keep it out.

 

[couchsending]

In regards to freshness. I think this applies more to packaged product. It is incredibly hard to keep O2 out of beer when bottling or canning unless you have the absolute top of the line packaging equipment, the real expensive stuff. If you’re going from a fermenter right into a keg and keeping it cold you can keep your oxygen levels down to almost nothing. Your beer should last a lot longer, months without fading essentially. The better the stability (whatever your definition of that might be based on the style) the longer the beer will stay in tip top shape.

I’ve never had a Treehouse beer lose it’s haze other than Bright which is to be expected. However their beers are definitely prone to sediment at times, same with Trillium. HF cans I’ve had never have sediment and honestly the haze is never as “thicc” as others. But to be honest I don’t usually hold onto them
For that long. Had a Heady last night that was full of sediment. Honestly these might be the last Alchemist beers I buy. I’ve been so bummed with so many of the cans I’ve purchased over the last year. So many have been oxidized. The Heady last night wasn’t thank god but the Focal sure was. It’s a shame cause the sample beers on tap at the brewery always are phenomenal but the cans I’ve had are rarely close to that.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I think most breweries have a pretty tight canning process, at least the ones in my area. The smaller ones that can't or don't want to afford the equipment rent mobile canning setups. After months in the can it still tastes as fresh as in the brewery.

Even so, I always check canning dates and generally refuse to buy anything more than 3 months old. I don't know exactly when a beer's flavor will begin to fade and it definitely would vary by recipe/brewery but it seems like a reasonable line to draw in the sand when I'm paying so much for craft beer.

 

[leesmith]

I think freshness applies to any packaged beer including kegs.

Just up at HF and honestly felt the draft hoppy beers just didn’t pop like they usually do.

But the draft Mary was....awesome. The malt came through, the hops, the bitterness and dryness. As Shaun has said in an interview everything was in....”its place.”

An outstanding example of any style is a moving target and even people that do it well have to put up with that.

Freshness to me would be defined as when the beer is at its peak....not just tasting good at 6 months.

Edit:
The Mosaic IPA on draft was the most on point and tasting awesome.

 

[flintoid]

Galaxy is back in stock at Yakima Valley. 155 pounders available right now

 

[SRJHops]

At a side note.. Just wanted to throw this review in there for the No Oats / No Wheat discussion. Note the remarks of him that it misses that juicyness and creamy mouthfeel. Could be just their process is going down or the reviewer being palette fatigued but nonetheless an interesting observation.

This is a trillium beer made with
ABV: 6.8%
MALT: Pale Malt, Honey Malt, Victory Malt
HOPS: Mosaic

Ouch! Pretty scathing review. "Bland..weak...forgettable..disappointing.."

I wonder if he was expecting a NEIPA, but it was really a West Coast IPA?

I prefer it when beers are labeled NEIPA or at least hazy, so I know what to expect. There is nothing wrong with a flavorful IPA, but that doesn't make it a NEIPA...

I personally would not think of brewing a NEIPA without wheat and oats. I believe that protein is what helps keep everything in suspension (longer). I have moved away from flaked, going with malted wheat and oats, and it seems to do the trick. I do use a little flaked barley and carafoam for head retention.

One of the most amazing examples of dropping clear was when I had Foggy Geezer on tap recently. (Created by 3 Floyds + Mikkeller at WarPigs Brewpub Copenhagen and brewed stateside by WarPigs Brewing USA.) It was totally clear and tasted very bland. I asked the bartender to shake the keg upside down, which helped a little. But there is something going on with that recipe...and kegging it did not help.

In terms of freshness, I do think NEIPAs peak after a few weeks, but I think the recipe and process can help with stability. I tend to think of it more like the flavor ramps up over a few weeks, then ramps down. But the beer is still pretty tasty there for about two months at least.

My latest is actually very drinkable (hooray!) after just one week of bottle conditioning, but I expect it to peak at about 6 weeks in the bottle, then start to fade out over several weeks. I never have any left after 2.5 months... though I am pretty sure the flavor would mostly be gone after 3 months. However, I would not expect it to ever drop clear. None of mine have so far...

 

[couchsending]

A common misconception is that malted wheat will help with haze, if anything it actually has the opposite effect. Listen to the recent CB&B podcast with the brewer from Modist. They have a mash filter so they can brew all sorts of weird beers that normal setups couldn’t. They brewed a 100% wheat malt hazy beer that cleared incredibly quickly. The brewer quotes Dan Carey from New Glaurus (one of the best brewers in the US) something about how malted wheat will always drop out of suspension. And when you have a large percentage of it, drag everything else down with it.

 

[flintoid]

Does this apply to flaked vs. malted oats as well?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

What POF- wine yeast did you use that wasn’t killer? Only POF- one I know of is K1V-1116 which is killer

Uvaferm/Steinberger 228 is probably the easiest to get hold of, it's reasonably easy to find in bricks and there's places in Eastern Europe that repack into retail sizes. The thread mentioned above is here.

Lately the Sapwood guys have been playing with some of the VIN series from Stellenbosch which are killer positive but POF- and with some interesting biotransformation/glucosidase activity.

 

[Dgallo]

I can certainly attest to malted wheat NEIPA dropping clearer after cold conditioning in the keg. @couchsending what did he contribute it to? Based on molecular weight, malted wheat would have the shortest branch chain of gluten of all the forms of wheat due to the malting process giving it less molecular weight than let’s say flaked. So if it’s not heavier, I wonder what else is causing the drop.l?

 

[SRJHops]

A common misconception is that malted wheat will help with haze, if anything it actually has the opposite effect. Listen to the recent CB&B podcast with the brewer from Modist. They have a mash filter so they can brew all sorts of weird beers that normal setups couldn’t. They brewed a 100% wheat malt hazy beer that cleared incredibly quickly. The brewer quotes Dan Carey from New Glaurus (one of the best brewers in the US) something about how malted wheat will always drop out of suspension. And when you have a large percentage of it, drag everything else down with it.

Perhaps one pound of malted wheat isn't enough to do much in a 15 pound grain bill. But good to know about large percentages.

Dig the local brewery mention! Modist is pretty solid, though Barrel Theory and Blackstack have 'em beat in the NEIPA category. I also LOVE New Glarus. Doubt they are making a NEIPA, but if so, it would likely be great!

 

[Dgallo]

Perhaps one pound of malted wheat isn't enough to do much in a 15 pound grain bill. But good to know about large percentages.!

Here’s how badly my NEIPA flocced in 3 weeks time in a keg using 2 lbs malted wheat

 

[couchsending]

Uvaferm/Steinberger 228 is probably the easiest to get hold of, it's reasonably easy to find in bricks and there's places in Eastern Europe that repack into retail sizes. The thread mentioned above is here.

Lately the Sapwood guys have been playing with some of the VIN series from Stellenbosch which are killer positive but POF- and with some interesting biotransformation/glucosidase activity.

your definition of "easy to get" and my definition are clearly rather different.

 

[NickC]

Galaxy is back in stock at Yakima Valley. 155 pounders available right now

Thanks for the heads up! I missed the boat a couple of weeks back, so glad I grabbed a pound this time around.

For those of you who have had success with the Citra Mosaic Galaxy combo, what’s your Whirlpool vs Dryhop schedule look like?

 

[Dgallo]

Thanks for the heads up! I missed the boat a couple of weeks back, so glad I grabbed a pound this time around.

For those of you who have had success with the Citra Mosaic Galaxy combo, what’s your Whirlpool vs Dryhop schedule look like?

Honestly can’t go wrong. Just watch the Galaxy amount in the dry hop, going overboard will make it take at least 2 weeks to make it drinkable. Big hopbite with the polyphenols

 

[couchsending]

Thanks for the heads up! I missed the boat a couple of weeks back, so glad I grabbed a pound this time around.

For those of you who have had success with the Citra Mosaic Galaxy combo, what’s your Whirlpool vs Dryhop schedule look like?

Personally I enjoy the different hops at different times.

I prefer Mosaic in WP
I prefer Citra in DH

Galaxy is fine either way I’d just use a much smaller percentage of it as compared to the other hops. It will clobber everything in its path.

 

[SRJHops]

Here’s how badly my NEIPA flocced in 3 weeks time in a keg using 2 lbs malted wheat
View attachment 631792 View attachment 631793

Interesting! So, I use malted wheat and malted oats and mine never drop clear...So, could it be the malted oats keeping mine in suspension? Or something else?

 

[Dgallo]

Interesting! So, I use malted wheat and malted oats and mine never drop clear...So, could it be the malted oats keeping mine in suspension? Or something else?

I had a lot of luck with malted oats, just hated the lack of head retention with it.

This is the first time I’ve used malted wheat at 15 % or more of a NEIPA

 

[marchuk96]

Personally I enjoy the different hops at different times.

I prefer Mosaic in WP
I prefer Citra in DH

Galaxy is fine either way I’d just use a much smaller percentage of it as compared to the other hops. It will clobber everything in its path.

I'd agree 100% with @Dgallo..I mean mosaic is good any way you use it...so are any of them for that matter...I don't think there is any wrong way to use any of those hops

 

[kevink]

Dry hop after fermentation and yeast has been removed. Hold at 60 for 4 days, slowly cool as low as you can go with head pressure. Transfer beer and cold condition while carbonating.

You're saying that you dry hop at 60 here?

 

[couchsending]

I'd agree 100% with @Dgallo..I mean mosaic is good any way you use it...so are any of them for that matter...I don't think there is any wrong way to use any of those hops

It depends on the mosaic you have... there’s a lot of mosaic that has that sweaty/dank/footy aspect to it. If you’ve got that stuff putting it in hotside will get rid of that but leave you with the cool fruity aspects of mosaic.

 

[couchsending]

You're saying that you dry hop at 60 here?

Yes

 

[beervoid]

A common misconception is that malted wheat will help with haze, if anything it actually has the opposite effect. Listen to the recent CB&B podcast with the brewer from Modist. They have a mash filter so they can brew all sorts of weird beers that normal setups couldn’t. They brewed a 100% wheat malt hazy beer that cleared incredibly quickly. The brewer quotes Dan Carey from New Glaurus (one of the best brewers in the US) something about how malted wheat will always drop out of suspension. And when you have a large percentage of it, drag everything else down with it.

Great stuff thanks for sharing.
Makes me wonder though how trillium does it as they state they use white wheat in many of their ipas. I figured this is malted.

 

[stickyfinger]

Great stuff thanks for sharing.
Makes me wonder though how trillium does it as they state they use white wheat in many of their ipas. I figured this is malted.

in his book janish says there is a sweet spot for haze from wheat malt and then if you go over that it gets less hazy...

 

[beervoid]

in his book janish says there is a sweet spot for haze from wheat malt and then if you go over that it gets less hazy...

Where in the book did you read that?
I could only find the 40% unmalted wheat experiment making less haze and then he goes on to state that malted wheat is better for haze.

EDIT found it, 15 to 20% might be good for stable haze with malted wheats..

I've had clarity issues with only 10% though

 

[SRJHops]

I had a lot of luck with malted oats, just hated the lack of head retention with it.

This is the first time I’ve used malted wheat at 15 % or more of a NEIPA

I don't totally understand all the ways to influence head retention, but I do add carafoam and flaked barley to my beers, hoping they counteract anything that decreases it. It seems to be working, as the head retention (and haze retention) for my beers seems quite good. Here was my latest grain bill, BTW:

Two-row Malt: 60%
Oat Malt: 13%
White Wheat Malt: 13%
Carafoam: 7%
Flaked Barley: 7%

 

[isomerization]

Personally I enjoy the different hops at different times.

I prefer Mosaic in WP
I prefer Citra in DH

Galaxy is fine either way I’d just use a much smaller percentage of it as compared to the other hops. It will clobber everything in its path.

I like this concept a lot and have been meaning to explore more. Normally I just blend all my hops (in whatever ratio) and add at the indicated times, temps, etc.

Care to share any other hops that benefit from hot versus cold side?

 

[beervoid]

I had a lot of luck with malted oats, just hated the lack of head retention with it.

This is the first time I’ve used malted wheat at 15 % or more of a NEIPA

Did u use any other proteine grains?
It's funny cause Janish's book and the research there in says you get the most stable haze with malted wheat at 15%

Which brand and type of malted wheat did you use?
How much % oats do u usually add?
This is a head scratcher...

 

[isomerization]

So far most neipa i've had had a stable haze. Most where not older then 3 months.
I do taste a difference when they are fresh and you poor the bottom of settled debris vs an old one with settled debris. The old ones I prefer to keep it out.

3 months!? I’m not buying if it’s more than 4-6 weeks since canning date (anything hoppy, sour or dark are less of a concern).

 

[leesmith]

Did u use any other proteine grains?
It's funny cause Janish's book and the research there in says you get the most stable haze with malted wheat at 15%
This is a head scratcher...

80% Rahr 2-row
20% White wheat malt

Single hop Nelson beer.

Stayed hazy to the last drop.
Clear before dry hopping.

 

[beervoid]

View attachment 631900

80% Rahr 2-row
20% White wheat malt

Single hop Nelson beer.

Stayed hazy to the last drop.
Clear before dry hopping.

Been reading into this a bit, the research paper quoted in Janish's book. It seems it's a very complex subject and different types of malt from different maltsters can be haze positive or negative..

 

[Oldskewl]

Do certain hops effect haze more so than others? My last 2 beers have kept their haze over 3-4 months in the keg. One was a Trillium Vicinity clone and the other was this OP recipe 1 Citra|1 Mosaic|1 El Dorado|0.5 Galaxy(same Galaxy used in the Vicinity clone) Both beers had an astringency to them I have never experienced before.

 

[beervoid]

3 months!? I’m not buying if it’s more than 4-6 weeks since canning date (anything hoppy, sour or dark are less of a concern).

I can only get em by trade so I was unlucky with that batch

 

[leesmith]

Do certain hops effect haze more so than others? My last 2 beers have kept their haze over 3-4 months in the keg. One was a Trillium Vicinity clone and the other was this OP recipe 1 Citra|1 Mosaic|1 El Dorado|0.5 Galaxy(same Galaxy used in the Vicinity clone) Both beers had an astringency to them I have never experienced before.

Yes
They do.

The haze is strain dependent, recipe dependent, and process dependent....and no one way to do it.

 

[beervoid]

Do certain hops effect haze more so than others? My last 2 beers have kept their haze over 3-4 months in the keg. One was a Trillium Vicinity clone and the other was this OP recipe 1 Citra|1 Mosaic|1 El Dorado|0.5 Galaxy(same Galaxy used in the Vicinity clone) Both beers had an astringency to them I have never experienced before.

Generally the higher oil content hops.

 

[isomerization]

I can only get em by trade so I was unlucky with that batch

Ah gotcha, I was referring to liquor store purchases, but yeah you’re at the mercy of your trade buddy lol.

 

[leesmith]

Been reading into this a bit, the research paper quoted in Janish's book. It seems it's a very complex subject and different types of malt from different maltsters can be haze positive or negative..

Pretty interesting.

I’ve also made heavily dry hopped mixed ferm beers with wheat and they clear like a champ.

Experience is the best teacher I’ve found....wish i had more time.

 

[couchsending]

Do certain hops effect haze more so than others? My last 2 beers have kept their haze over 3-4 months in the keg. One was a Trillium Vicinity clone and the other was this OP recipe 1 Citra|1 Mosaic|1 El Dorado|0.5 Galaxy(same Galaxy used in the Vicinity clone) Both beers had an astringency to them I have never experienced before.

Definitely. The Aussie hops are notorious for it, some American varieties. It’s not necessarily directly related to oil content although they do tend to coincide. Have you used Galaxy before?