New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[WBCo]

That's because his initial post was incorrect. Those higher values are for FINISHED beer after ion contributions from the malt.

 

[JohnConnor]

I just kegged my latest IPA last night. 2-row and vienna. Bittered with columbus. Kettle and dry hopped with mosaic, centennial, and amarillo. I used @Dgallo 's tip of driving fermentation with 1318. Just tasting the hydrometer sample was amazing. Shaping up to be the best beer I've ever brewered. Dank undertones from the columbus washes to pure orange juice. Can't wait for it to carb! Thanks for all the great tips!

 

[Dgallo]

I just kegged my latest IPA last night. 2-row and vienna. Bittered with columbus. Kettle and dry hopped with mosaic, centennial, and amarillo. I used @Dgallo 's tip of driving fermentation with 1318. Just tasting the hydrometer sample was amazing. Shaping up to be the best beer I've ever brewered. Dank undertones from the columbus washes to pure orange juice. Can't wait for it to carb! Thanks for all the great tips!

Let me know if you get any increased ester notes and cleaner beer when it’s all finished up!

 

[ihavenonickname]

Could someone weigh in on which hops are best used in the whirlpool and which are preferred in dry hop? I can start it off just based on what I’ve read around:

Better in whirlpool:
Simcoe (less cat piss), Idaho 7 (pungent), centennial, Columbus

Better as DH:
Galaxy, mosaic, el do, Amarillo

Im sure many are great both ways but it’s nice to split it up like this for simpletons like me.

 

[Dgallo]

Could someone weigh in on which hops are best used in the whirlpool and which are preferred in dry hop? I can start it off just based on what I’ve read around:

Better in whirlpool:
Simcoe (less cat piss), Idaho 7 (pungent), centennial, Columbus

Better as DH:
Galaxy, mosaic, el do, Amarillo

Im sure many are great both ways but it’s nice to split it up like this for simpletons like me.

All preference brother and will make different beers by switching them. However, I personally hate el dorado in whirlpool. Also I love Columbus in both and think galaxy is better in the dry hop at a low rate, like .5oz/ gallon

 

[JohnConnor]

Let me know if you get any increased ester notes and cleaner beer when it’s all finished up!

I did a couple things. First, your ramp up process. Second, I dropped yeast and dry hopped without any activity. Usually I'm kind of "Huh, this seems good" with samples before carbing. But this hydrometer sample was the cleanest, most expressive to date. Even my wife, who is highly critical btw, was wow'ed. I'll post a picture and review this weekend.

 

[Hannabrew]

I just kegged my latest IPA last night. 2-row and vienna. Bittered with columbus. Kettle and dry hopped with mosaic, centennial, and amarillo. I used @Dgallo 's tip of driving fermentation with 1318. Just tasting the hydrometer sample was amazing. Shaping up to be the best beer I've ever brewered. Dank undertones from the columbus washes to pure orange juice. Can't wait for it to carb! Thanks for all the great tips!

what was that again? Too hard to find anything in this thread these days.

That's because his initial post was incorrect. Those higher values are for FINISHED beer after ion contributions from the malt.

So without knowing the malt contributions, is the other post more realistic as a water target?

 

[JohnConnor]

what was that again? Too hard to find anything in this thread these days.



So without knowing the malt contributions, is the other post more realistic as a water target?

I pitched around 68F and let it free rise to 72F for 2 days. Bumped up to 75F for 2 days. Dropped to 70F for 3 days to finish up. Then dropped to ~60F to soft crash for a day or so. Dry hopped for 5 days at 60F. Crashed to 40F for 3 days. Kegged.

 

[Hannabrew]

I'm at a bit of a crossroads with NEIPAs. Since moving to spunding all my beers, the NEIPA is the most difficult beer to pull off.

When spunding it's a race against the clock. My NEIPAs typically ferment out in 4-5 days so I'd be spunding on day 3 or 4. That doesn't leave much time to dry hop so I have to either do it early in fermentation and lose a lot to activity or do it later and still lose some while also potentially not getting much extraction time not to mention the issues trying to closed transfer with so much hop debris (I realize I can bag them but that leads to even less extraction). These beers have held their flavor consistently but they don't pop on aroma/flavor as much as the non-spunded beers in their prime as I typically wait later in fermentation to dry hop, let them clear before racking, etc.

The last few batches I've ditched spunding the NEIPAs as I just can't figure out a good process and while the beer is fine for a bit, it quickly loses the hop flavors I want. Nobody else notices and think they taste great but they're wrong ;-). I give most of these away once I detect that flavor.

So I need to figure out a way to work spunding back into my NEIPAs but need to figure out a better process that allows for decent extraction of dry hops and a decently smooth closed transfer when racking with a couple points remaining.

Any spunders out there want to share their process? I know Couchsending posted his process but I can't see how you'd have any points left after a week of fermentation.

 

[Dgallo]

I'm at a bit of a crossroads with NEIPAs. Since moving to spunding all my beers, the NEIPA is the most difficult beer to pull off.

When spunding it's a race against the clock. My NEIPAs typically ferment out in 4-5 days so I'd be spunding on day 3 or 4. That doesn't leave much time to dry hop so I have to either do it early in fermentation and lose a lot to activity or do it later and still lose some while also potentially not getting much extraction time not to mention the issues trying to closed transfer with so much hop debris (I realize I can bag them but that leads to even less extraction). These beers have held their flavor consistently but they don't pop on aroma/flavor as much as the non-spunded beers in their prime as I typically wait later in fermentation to dry hop, let them clear before racking, etc.

The last few batches I've ditched spunding the NEIPAs as I just can't figure out a good process and while the beer is fine for a bit, it quickly loses the hop flavors I want. Nobody else notices and think they taste great but it doesn't. I give most of these away once I detect that flavor.

So I need to figure out a way to work spunding back into my NEIPAs but need to figure out a better process that allows for decent extraction of dry hops and a decently smooth closed transfer when racking with a couple points remaining.

Any spunders out there want to share their process? I know Couchsending posted his process but I can't see how you'd have any points left after a week of fermentation.

You could always add some krausening from another hoppy beer you have going, use DME/LME, or use priming sugar to “natural” carb using your spunding valve afte you done all your dryhoping and crashing.

The loss of flavor and detectable flavor your speaking of sounds like oxidation.

 

[stickyfinger]

I'm about to be in a sort of similar boat. I've been spunding for several months but want to try some new dry hopping regimens. Anyway, as Dgallo said, I was planning on most likely just transferring over to a keg after late dry-hopping and maybe crashing some more and then squirting in some priming sugar through the pressure release valve to carbonate at warmer temps. It will take longer to get the IPA to serving but I don't see a way around it if you want oxygen scavenging activity during/after transfer to the serving keg. I don't see a method for transferring with points left that will work unless you bag the hops. The CBDS will clog unless the larger hop particles are pretty well compacted. I wish I had a home centrifuge.... Actually, maybe I don't wish that....

I'm at a bit of a crossroads with NEIPAs. Since moving to spunding all my beers, the NEIPA is the most difficult beer to pull off.

When spunding it's a race against the clock. My NEIPAs typically ferment out in 4-5 days so I'd be spunding on day 3 or 4. That doesn't leave much time to dry hop so I have to either do it early in fermentation and lose a lot to activity or do it later and still lose some while also potentially not getting much extraction time not to mention the issues trying to closed transfer with so much hop debris (I realize I can bag them but that leads to even less extraction). These beers have held their flavor consistently but they don't pop on aroma/flavor as much as the non-spunded beers in their prime as I typically wait later in fermentation to dry hop, let them clear before racking, etc.

The last few batches I've ditched spunding the NEIPAs as I just can't figure out a good process and while the beer is fine for a bit, it quickly loses the hop flavors I want. Nobody else notices and think they taste great but they're wrong ;-). I give most of these away once I detect that flavor.

So I need to figure out a way to work spunding back into my NEIPAs but need to figure out a better process that allows for decent extraction of dry hops and a decently smooth closed transfer when racking with a couple points remaining.

Any spunders out there want to share their process? I know Couchsending posted his process but I can't see how you'd have any points left after a week of fermentation.

 

[Hannabrew]

You could always add some krausening from another hoppy beer you have going, use DME/LME, or use priming sugar to “natural” carb using your spunding valve afte you done all your dryhoping and crashing.

The loss of flavor and detectable flavor your speaking of sounds like oxidation.

it's definitely oxidation...only difference in procedure is later dry hopping (but I do so quickly and purge headspace afterwards) and force carbing. I blame the force carbing...yes it's not much O2 but when you pump that much into your beer to carbonate it you will end up with enough to change flavors over time.

I don't usually have multiple beers going at once...was thinking of potentially freezing some remaining wort and using that to try krausening. My issue with priming is the time it takes to complete since there is so little yeast in the keg at that point.

 

[Dgallo]

it's definitely oxidation...only difference in procedure is later dry hopping (but I do so quickly and purge headspace afterwards) and force carbing. I blame the force carbing...yes it's not much O2 but when you pump that much into your beer to carbonate it you will end up with enough to change flavors over time.

I don't usually have multiple beers going at once...was thinking of potentially freezing some remaining wort and using that to try krausening. My issue with priming is the time it takes to complete since there is so little yeast in the keg at that point.

Though I’ve haven’t had problems force carbing recently with oxidation, if want to prime or spund in keg, I know brewers are using CBC-1 dry yeast to condition their beers. Pitch it when you add the priming solution,whether it’s sugar or wort

 

[SRJHops]

what was that again? Too hard to find anything in this thread these days.

So without knowing the malt contributions, is the other post more realistic as a water target?

It was a cool link.. Here is what the article concluded (note the Braufessor mention!):

"...I think a reasonable starting water profile is 100 ppm calcium, 150 ppm sulfate, 150 ppm chloride and as little sodium and magnesium as possible (< 10 ppm). This should result in the finished NEIPA in the 30 – 50 ppm calcium, 350 – 400 ppm sulfate, 300 – 400 ppm chloride range. This profile falls in line with Janish, Braufessor, and Tonsmeire’s recommendations."

I also clicked the link to the Janish study, where he recommended 1:1 Cl to So, under 200 ppm. So, something like 150:150. However, in his most recent recipe in BYO, I believe he was closer to 150 Cl to 100 So.

 

[couchsending]

My hoppy beers got way better when I stopped spunding, especially in terms of aroma. Adding dry hops during fermentation might add some flavor but when there’s so much yeast in suspension the aroma will really suffer.

Even though I’m not adding dry hops during fermentation I get absolutely zero signs of oxidation. The beers don’t fade and if anything the aroma seems to improve or become more refined.

If you’re diligent about keeping o2 pickup to a minimum but your hoppy beers are losing their punch it’s because the yeast is dragging down all those oils and aromas when they flock.

I’m adding the dry hops very quickly through a very small opening and then purging headspace but what I think makes a big difference is also maintaining head pressure of up to say 5 psi after the hops have been added. It helps keep the aroma and overall impact in the liquid itself. I don’t have a unitank yet but I think the PRV on my conicals can maintain 3-5 psi. If I could run Co2 into the headspace when I add the dry hops I would. I’ve done it a few times through the sample port but it didn’t seem to make a significant difference.

 

[Hannabrew]

My hoppy beers got way better when I stopped spunding, especially in terms of aroma. Adding dry hops during fermentation might add some flavor but when there’s so much yeast in suspension the aroma will really suffer.

Even though I’m not adding dry hops during fermentation I get absolutely zero signs of oxidation. The beers don’t fade and if anything the aroma seems to improve or become more refined.

If you’re diligent about keeping o2 pickup to a minimum but your hoppy beers are losing their punch it’s because the yeast is dragging down all those oils and aromas when they flock.

I’m adding the dry hops very quickly through a very small opening and then purging headspace but what I think makes a big difference is also maintaining head pressure of up to say 5 psi after the hops have been added. It helps keep the aroma and overall impact in the liquid itself. I don’t have a unitank yet but I think the PRV on my conicals can maintain 3-5 psi. If I could run Co2 into the headspace when I add the dry hops I would. I’ve done it a few times through the sample port but it didn’t seem to make a significant difference.

This is kind of what I was hoping for by ditching spunding for NEIPAs but so far I've had 3 batches that had oxidized hop flavors rather quickly. I use fermonsters with modded lids and spigots...don't open the lid at all except when quickly adding the dry hops and then purge headspace using the gas post on the fermonster lid. There is usually some slow activity still going on even when adding DHs late and to this point I haven't cold crashed. I do a completely closed transfer with purged lines into a fermentation purged keg and then force carbonate. I can't see where I'd be getting oxygen other than the force carb. The only other place I can think of would be the spigot of the fermonster when transferring...It's just a barb and when flush the line prior to connecting it to the barb if I attach it with pressure the pressure does bleed out a bit so not pressure tight (not sure if it needs to be though). Still, I do all my beers with this process and don't notice any oxidation in my other beers which are full LoOx.

 

[Hannabrew]

It was a cool link.. Here is what the article concluded (note the Braufessor mention!):

"...I think a reasonable starting water profile is 100 ppm calcium, 150 ppm sulfate, 150 ppm chloride and as little sodium and magnesium as possible (< 10 ppm). This should result in the finished NEIPA in the 30 – 50 ppm calcium, 350 – 400 ppm sulfate, 300 – 400 ppm chloride range. This profile falls in line with Janish, Braufessor, and Tonsmeire’s recommendations."

I also clicked the link to the Janish study, where he recommended 1:1 Cl to So, under 200 ppm. So, something like 150:150. However, in his most recent recipe in BYO, I believe he was closer to 150 Cl to 100 So.

cool, that's exactly what I do anyway

 

[Hannabrew]

Though I’ve haven’t had problems force carbing recently with oxidation, if want to prime or spund in keg, I know brewers are using CBC-1 dry yeast to condition their beers. Pitch it when you add the priming solution,whether it’s sugar or wort

So has anybody tried creating a priming solution starter with the CBC-1 and pitching that in for krausening? That seems like it could work. Get a fast flavor neutral fermentation/carbonation while cleaning up diacetyl.

 

[couchsending]

This is kind of what I was hoping for by ditching spunding for NEIPAs but so far I've had 3 batches that had oxidized hop flavors rather quickly. I use fermonsters with modded lids and spigots...don't open the lid at all except when quickly adding the dry hops and then purge headspace using the gas post on the fermonster lid. There is usually some slow activity still going on even when adding DHs late and to this point I haven't cold crashed. I do a completely closed transfer with purged lines into a fermentation purged keg and then force carbonate. I can't see where I'd be getting oxygen other than the force carb. The only other place I can think of would be the spigot of the fermonster when transferring...It's just a barb and when flush the line prior to connecting it to the barb if I attach it with pressure the pressure does bleed out a bit so not pressure tight (not sure if it needs to be though). Still, I do all my beers with this process and don't notice any oxidation in my other beers which are full LoOx.

Yeah I have no idea unfortunately. I don't fermentation purge kegs and haven't felt the need. I've been thinking of trying it but there are too many other
variables I'd rather spend my time on at the moment. You must be getting some o2 pickup somewhere in the transfer. I've never got oxidation flavors or
color change in any beer but what I do notice is just a lack of aroma on beers that got too much o2 exposure.

 

[Hannabrew]

Yeah I have no idea unfortunately. I don't fermentation purge kegs and haven't felt the need. I've been thinking of trying it but there are too many other
variables I'd rather spend my time on at the moment. You must be getting some o2 pickup somewhere in the transfer. I've never got oxidation flavors or
color change in any beer but what I do notice is just a lack of aroma on beers that got too much o2 exposure.

I get no color change at all, just a change from fresh hop flavor to more of that old west coast IPA hop flavor.

 

[ttuato]

This is kind of what I was hoping for by ditching spunding for NEIPAs but so far I've had 3 batches that had oxidized hop flavors rather quickly. I use fermonsters with modded lids and spigots...don't open the lid at all except when quickly adding the dry hops and then purge headspace using the gas post on the fermonster lid. There is usually some slow activity still going on even when adding DHs late and to this point I haven't cold crashed. I do a completely closed transfer with purged lines into a fermentation purged keg and then force carbonate. I can't see where I'd be getting oxygen other than the force carb. The only other place I can think of would be the spigot of the fermonster when transferring...It's just a barb and when flush the line prior to connecting it to the barb if I attach it with pressure the pressure does bleed out a bit so not pressure tight (not sure if it needs to be though). Still, I do all my beers with this process and don't notice any oxidation in my other beers which are full LoOx.

Consider these that I have done - maybe one or all will help (I do all of them now). My NEIPAs stay fresh with solid aroma up to two months and I spund.

• Hop pellets have lots of crevices that hold air, try putting them in ziploc and flush with nitrogen, not co2, then seal bag and hold for a day so the niteogen can displacw rhe oxygen in crevices
• I have a the gas arm of “The Last Straw” bottling wand attached to nitro and use To “purge” when opening fermentor rather than applying CO2. I also do this when filling bottles/cans/growlers from tap.
• If you have a triclover / npt on your fermentor use Jaybird yeast brink to add dryhops so dont have to open fermenter at all. This what I do now.
• Use quality beverage line for transfer finished beer - not cheap vinyl or silicone. KEY: make sure worm clamps on every connection and super tight. The venturi effect is more powerful than you think and will pull in air at hose ends while transferring unless it is clamped.
• When starting transfer press finger into ball lock connect to disgard the first few ounces in the transfer line that could have potentially picked up O2 when starting
• If you do a “biotransformation” dryhop do not use a lot hops becaus the extended contact time will extract bad stuff from the hops along with the good.
• Dryhop once after FG and soft crash to 58. After 24hrs drop it to 32 to crash fully then transfer into keg after 24hr or less so that the bolus of dryhops green material only in contact with beer less than 48hrs. You will get 90%+ of what is acheivable in that short of time as far as the hop oils are concerned and avoid extracting the bad stuff from hops that will increase vegetal / tannic flavors
• For the win: Use whirlfloc and Get only clear wort into the fermentor. The fatty acids in the hot break are rhe ultimate source of oxidative material. Keep it out of the fermentor as much as possible. (I think this step made biggest difference). As an extra precaution I just started using the brewershardware wort filter when transferring.
• Oats contribute lots of fatty acids. I seldom / rarely use oats now because of fatty acids & oxidation.

 

[cheesebach]

I'm at a bit of a crossroads with NEIPAs. Since moving to spunding all my beers, the NEIPA is the most difficult beer to pull off.

When spunding it's a race against the clock. My NEIPAs typically ferment out in 4-5 days so I'd be spunding on day 3 or 4. That doesn't leave much time to dry hop so I have to either do it early in fermentation and lose a lot to activity or do it later and still lose some while also potentially not getting much extraction time not to mention the issues trying to closed transfer with so much hop debris (I realize I can bag them but that leads to even less extraction). These beers have held their flavor consistently but they don't pop on aroma/flavor as much as the non-spunded beers in their prime as I typically wait later in fermentation to dry hop, let them clear before racking, etc.

The last few batches I've ditched spunding the NEIPAs as I just can't figure out a good process and while the beer is fine for a bit, it quickly loses the hop flavors I want. Nobody else notices and think they taste great but they're wrong ;-). I give most of these away once I detect that flavor.

So I need to figure out a way to work spunding back into my NEIPAs but need to figure out a better process that allows for decent extraction of dry hops and a decently smooth closed transfer when racking with a couple points remaining.

Any spunders out there want to share their process? I know Couchsending posted his process but I can't see how you'd have any points left after a week of fermentation.

This sounds very similar to my experience as well. Below are the constants in my cold-side process that I haven't changed in the past year and a half:

1) Ferment in corny keg
2) Flow in CO2 through gas post when adding dry hops
3) FULL water purge serving keg (tilt & fill until water is coming out the trimmed gas in dip tube)
4) Purge transfer lines
5) Closed gravity-fed transfer (gas to gas, liquid to liquid connections)

Typically, I get fresh tasting NEIPA until about week 5-6 and then things start falling off pretty quick to the point that by week 7 or 8, I'm not too excited to finish anything that happens to be left. Most of the time, I'm trying to finish or give away the remaining beer by week 5 to avoid the inevitable, but this past beer has been busy so I've kegs sitting around longer than usual lately. Usually, I notice the flavor and aroma take a sharp turn downward before I notice any color change (if I notice any at all).

I do wonder how much of this is truly oxidation vs. proteins and hop material gradually settling to the bottom of the keg over time. I definitely noticed that WLP095 had a shorter shelf life than WY1318, which seems to correlate with it also clearing faster. WY1318 usually maintains a heavy haze for the life of the keg, but I suspect it does also clear with time, just more slowly.

I have tried adding all hops during active fermentation and then spunding, but aroma seems to take a big hit with this approach. Below are a few other things I had in mind to try:

1) Add a dose of sodium metabisulfite at post-fermentation dry hop or transfer to serving keg to scavenge O2
2) Add priming sugar serving keg to naturally carb rather instead of fermentation spunding or force carb

The suggestions from @ttuato are also helpful. In particular, I don't know how good of a job I do of filtering hot break material. I'm always struggling with how to avoid losing the last 2 gallons of wort in the kettle. Even after waiting 1-2 hours for things to settle, I start getting hops carried over to the fermenter around the 2-2.5 gallon mark - they just don't compact that well when there's 6-7 ounces of them in the kettle. Usually, I end up straining the last 2 gallon to get out most of the hop material, but I'm sure this allows some or most of the hot break to get through. Also, I haven't been using whirfloc in this style, which is something I may rethink.

I get no color change at all, just a change from fresh hop flavor to more of that old west coast IPA hop flavor.

Sounds the same as my experience.

 

[ttuato]

This sounds very similar to my experience as well. Below are the constants in my cold-side process that I haven't changed in the past year and a half:

1) Ferment in corny keg
2) Flow in CO2 through gas post when adding dry hops
3) FULL water purge serving keg (tilt & fill until water is coming out the trimmed gas in dip tube)
4) Purge transfer lines
5) Closed gravity-fed transfer (gas to gas, liquid to liquid connections)

Typically, I get fresh tasting NEIPA until about week 5-6 and then things start falling off pretty quick to the point that by week 7 or 8, I'm not too excited to finish anything that happens to be left. Most of the time, I'm trying to finish or give away the remaining beer by week 5 to avoid the inevitable, but this past beer has been busy so I've kegs sitting around longer than usual lately. Usually, I notice the flavor and aroma take a sharp turn downward before I notice any color change (if I notice any at all).

I do wonder how much of this is truly oxidation vs. proteins and hop material gradually settling to the bottom of the keg over time. I definitely noticed that WLP095 had a shorter shelf life than WY1318, which seems to correlate with it also clearing faster. WY1318 usually maintains a heavy haze for the life of the keg, but I suspect it does also clear with time, just more slowly.

I have tried adding all hops during active fermentation and then spunding, but aroma seems to take a big hit with this approach. Below are a few other things I had in mind to try:

1) Add a dose of sodium metabisulfite at post-fermentation dry hop or transfer to serving keg to scavenge O2
2) Add priming sugar serving keg to naturally carb rather instead of fermentation spunding or force carb

The suggestions from @ttuato are also helpful. In particular, I don't know how good of a job I do of filtering hot break material. I'm always struggling with how to avoid losing the last 2 gallons of wort in the kettle. Even after waiting 1-2 hours for things to settle, I start getting hops carried over to the fermenter around the 2-2.5 gallon mark - they just don't compact that well when there's 6-7 ounces of them in the kettle. Usually, I end up straining the last 2 gallon to get out most of the hop material, but I'm sure this allows some or most of the hot break to get through. Also, I haven't been using whirfloc in this style, which is something I may rethink.



Sounds the same as my experience.

Protein flocc out pulling hop oils out too - this is a real thing and very likely part of the issue. According to research that Janish cites you should used malted instead of flaked adjuncts (wheat malt, malted oats, chit malt instead of flaked barley). The flaked stuff is full of high molecular weight proteins that will fall out of solution eventually. The malting process breaks those proteins down some so that they stay in solution longer - this is a good thing because the hop oils bind to these along with the polyphenols (the haze).


Trying to get the last 2 gal of clear wort - put a stainless steel scrubby on your kettle pickup. These do a surprisingly good job of filtering out the hops and gunk. Another option - get a hopstopper 2.0 to attach to pickup.

 

[cheesebach]

Protein flocc out pulling hop oils out too - this is a real thing and very likely part of the issue. According to research that Janish cites you should used malted instead of flaked adjuncts (wheat malt, malted oats, chit malt instead of flaked barley). The flaked stuff is full of high molecular weight proteins that will fall out of solution eventually. The malting process breaks those proteins down some so that they stay in solution longer - this is a good thing because the hop oils bind to these along with the polyphenols (the haze).


Trying to get the last 2 gal of clear wort - put a stainless steel scrubby on your kettle pickup. These do a surprisingly good job of filtering out the hops and gunk. Another option - get a hopstopper 2.0 to attach to pickup.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think at a minimum, I will try adding whirlfloc back into my NEIPAs to see whether I get any shelf life improvement. Other Half has made some of my favorite commercial NEIPAs and they have claimed to be using a pretty high percentage of oats in their grain bills, so I'm not sure I'm ready to completely remove flaked oats right away. I don't think I've seen malted oats or chit malt at my LHBS, but I was already considering an online order for some chit malt after learning about it through the BYO NEIPA article written by Janish.

For the kettle filtering, I'm still going the old fashioned way - auto siphon into the fermenter. It seems when putting a bag or stainless filter over it to keep out the hops/trub, the filter or bag gets gunked up enough to clog before those last 2 gallons. I've been looking at going eBIAB for over a year, but can't make up my damn mind about what all I want in a new system. That hopstopper 2.0 did catch my eye, although I wonder if it would clog if I tried to do any post-boil recirculating for hop stand, chilling, etc.

 

[Dgallo]

Protein flocc out pulling hop oils out too - this is a real thing and very likely part of the issue. According to research that Janish cites you should used malted instead of flaked adjuncts (wheat malt, malted oats, chit malt instead of flaked barley). The flaked stuff is full of high molecular weight proteins that will fall out of solution eventually. The malting process breaks those proteins down some so that they stay in solution longer - this is a good thing because the hop oils bind to these along with the polyphenols (the haze).


Trying to get the last 2 gal of clear wort - put a stainless steel scrubby on your kettle pickup. These do a surprisingly good job of filtering out the hops and gunk. Another option - get a hopstopper 2.0 to attach to pickup.

I actually just tried this for this up coming beer that should be kegged this weekend. I tried what Equilibrium suggest for their floctuation wave and used 35% malted Oats. I’ll report if it helps the mouth feel and the longevity of the flavor and Aroma

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I use a plastic funnel with a large mesh hop bag over it to filter as I dump the kettle into the fermenter. May not catch everything but seems to catch a good amount of gunk. Even when I bag the hops during boil my funnel filter still catches a lot.

 

[JohnConnor]

So has anybody tried creating a priming solution starter with the CBC-1 and pitching that in for krausening? That seems like it could work. Get a fast flavor neutral fermentation/carbonation while cleaning up diacetyl.

I have. I think I used too much yeast and pitched too late. It didn't really do much for me. But I know others have had success doing it.

As for dry hopping with spunding. I've seen people use a gas disconnect, some hose, and a syringe. Make a hop tea or using hop oil extract, fill the syringe with the amount you want to use. And push in via the disconnect. I've never tried it so I can't vouch for how well it works.

 

[stickyfinger]

I abandoned my autosiphon awhile ago. Not sure if it is important, but I could sometimes see a few very small bubbles going into the line. I am assuming it was coming from where the autosiphon inner tube gasket at the bottom seals inside of the outer tube. I am assuming some air was maybe pulling in around there or something. I just use a racking cane now and never see any bubbles. How do I start the flow? If I use pressure, that is easy, if I am not using pressure, I just suck on the end of the line and then hook up my QD and purge the first few mLs then fill through the out post.

It seems to me that it is inevitable that flavor will drop off if you are starting with pretty cloudy beer in the keg. It's going to drop hop particles and yeast to the bottom of the keg, which works fine at first as you drink it but then it's going to reach a point where you're leaving more and more stuff on the bottom where it won't be picked up. I have been experiencing this with my kegs I serve using the CBDS from primary. They start out great and then can go through a kind of mediocre phase then if I serve a bunch they go back into a hazier more flavorful phase as I reach the bottom of the keg and star draining more from the bottom. I'm going to start trying to transfer from my primary kegs to a purged secondary with a dip tube and see if that helps.

If you took two cans of whatever delicious NEIPA of your choice and aged them for a couple months, you'd probably find that if you carefully pour off one and mix the other one, that the mixed one will be much much hazier and more flavorful.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think at a minimum, I will try adding whirlfloc back into my NEIPAs to see whether I get any shelf life improvement. Other Half has made some of my favorite commercial NEIPAs and they have claimed to be using a pretty high percentage of oats in their grain bills, so I'm not sure I'm ready to completely remove flaked oats right away. I don't think I've seen malted oats or chit malt at my LHBS, but I was already considering an online order for some chit malt after learning about it through the BYO NEIPA article written by Janish.

For the kettle filtering, I'm still going the old fashioned way - auto siphon into the fermenter. It seems when putting a bag or stainless filter over it to keep out the hops/trub, the filter or bag gets gunked up enough to clog before those last 2 gallons. I've been looking at going eBIAB for over a year, but can't make up my damn mind about what all I want in a new system. That hopstopper 2.0 did catch my eye, although I wonder if it would clog if I tried to do any post-boil recirculating for hop stand, chilling, etc.

 

[ttuato]

If you took two cans of whatever delicious NEIPA of your choice and aged them for a couple months, you'd probably find that if you carefully pour off one and mix the other one, that the mixed one will be much much hazier and more flavorful.

This is so true - I have done it with multiple commercial brews. I think it is Old Nation brewing that has label that recommends swirling can to agitate stuff back into solution. Accordingly, I have the CBDS in all my kegs, if the flavor starts to wane I swirl the keg a bit to get all of that hoppy goodness back into solution.

Alternatively - drink faster or brew smaller batches

 

[Genuine]

I've been thinking about getting the HopStopper 2.0 however does anyone have it on something like the Blichman BrewEasy? I have a similiar 2 Vessel system and worried about the small amount of grain that would be left in the kettle when beginning recirculation. I don't have a filter now so the particles eventually go back to the top of the mash after the hour long mash. Also, with any hazy IPA I turn the can upside down and swirl before opening.

 

[cheesebach]

I abandoned my autosiphon awhile ago. Not sure if it is important, but I could sometimes see a few very small bubbles going into the line. I am assuming it was coming from where the autosiphon inner tube gasket at the bottom seals inside of the outer tube. I am assuming some air was maybe pulling in around there or something. I just use a racking cane now and never see any bubbles. How do I start the flow? If I use pressure, that is easy, if I am not using pressure, I just suck on the end of the line and then hook up my QD and purge the first few mLs then fill through the out post.

I may not have been clear in my previous post, but the only time I use my autosiphon is when going from the BK to the fermenter. I'm about to intentionally introduce oxygen to the wort anyways at that point, so bubbles or not, I don't pay any attention to it, so long as the flow doesn't stop.

It seems to me that it is inevitable that flavor will drop off if you are starting with pretty cloudy beer in the keg. It's going to drop hop particles and yeast to the bottom of the keg, which works fine at first as you drink it but then it's going to reach a point where you're leaving more and more stuff on the bottom where it won't be picked up. I have been experiencing this with my kegs I serve using the CBDS from primary. They start out great and then can go through a kind of mediocre phase then if I serve a bunch they go back into a hazier more flavorful phase as I reach the bottom of the keg and star draining more from the bottom. I'm going to start trying to transfer from my primary kegs to a purged secondary with a dip tube and see if that helps.

If you took two cans of whatever delicious NEIPA of your choice and aged them for a couple months, you'd probably find that if you carefully pour off one and mix the other one, that the mixed one will be much much hazier and more flavorful.

I agree that this is probably a significant factor. Maybe this is actually one area where bottling/canning actually has the upper hand? It's a lot easier to swirl a can a couple minutes before you open it to mix everything up, but doing this with a keg everyday would get old pretty quick. Time for SS brewtech to invent the NEIPA keg SShaker??

I believe I get pretty clean beer transferred to my serving keg. I cold crash under pressure below serving temps for 24-48 hours, don't open the fermenter after crashing so there isn't any racking cane or rotating pickup tube that could rouse up sediment, discard the first pint for a FG sample, and use a stainless steel filter around my dip tube to keep out any hop material that still hasn't dropped after crashing.

With a standard dip tube in the serving keg, it seems the beer with the strongest hop character is going to be at the beginning, clearing up and losing some hop character as you go. With a CBDS, it might seem that it would be a little more consistent, but it doesn't sound like that is necessarily the case in your experience.

I've been thinking about getting the HopStopper 2.0 however does anyone have it on something like the Blichman BrewEasy? I have a similiar 2 Vessel system and worried about the small amount of grain that would be left in the kettle when beginning recirculation.

This is probably the biggest thing that's held me back from getting the Unibrau V3. It seems that it tends to leave behind small pieces of grain after removing the mash basket (probably since it doesn't come with any pickup tube, so whatever falls to the bottom may not get recirculated back on top). I assume adding a pickup tube and filter would only make things worse from that perspective.

 

[Genuine]

This is probably the biggest thing that's held me back from getting the Unibrau V3. It seems that it tends to leave behind small pieces of grain after removing the mash basket (probably since it doesn't come with any pickup tube, so whatever falls to the bottom may not get recirculated back on top). I assume adding a pickup tube and filter would only make things worse from that perspective.

I suppose I could figure out some sort of screen over my whirlpool arm to help catch the first bits of grain that would usually get recirculated to the top of the mash. Here's my carboy after last Friday's transfer to it.

 

[Dgallo]

I suppose I could figure out some sort of screen over my whirlpool arm to help catch the first bits of grain that would usually get recirculated to the top of the mash. Here's my carboy after last Friday's transfer to it.

View attachment 620418

That’s a whole lot of trub making it in your fermenter, brother

 

[ttuato]

That’s a whole lot of trub making it in your fermenter, brother

Strongly agree - oxidation and vegetal flavors galore there friend. If you cant get clean wort from the BK you could always go old school and dump it all fermentor A like the picture, stick in fridge overnight to get it in 50’s to drop all the crap to the bottom then use siphon to transfer the clear wort to another fermenter B, oxygenate and pitch in fermentor B. I had to do it that way when I used to use the grainfather.

 

[mergs]

I missed this

I used @Dgallo 's tip of driving fermentation with 1318

can someone point me to the details?

 

[RTHP99]

I actually just tried this for this up coming beer that should be kegged this weekend. I tried what Equilibrium suggest for their floctuation wave and used 35% malted Oats. I’ll report if it helps the mouth feel and the longevity of the flavor and Aroma

Where did you get that Equillibrium info from ?

 

[Dgallo]

Where did you get that Equillibrium info from ?

Someone posted on here that fluccuation wave and fluccuation Dreamwave are using 50% malted oats. I was too timid to go that high with the percentages

 

[Genuine]

Strongly agree - oxidation and vegetal flavors galore there friend. If you cant get clean wort from the BK you could always go old school and dump it all fermentor A like the picture, stick in fridge overnight to get it in 50’s to drop all the crap to the bottom then use siphon to transfer the clear wort to another fermenter B, oxygenate and pitch in fermentor B. I had to do it that way when I used to use the grainfather.

Here's to hoping it comes out ok!

 

[couchsending]

Does it taste like 50% oats?

Oats have a pretty distinct taste and texture.

I can’t imagine wanting to add that many.

 

[Dgallo]

Does it taste like 50% oats?

Oats have a pretty distinct taste and texture.

I can’t imagine wanting to add that many.

50% sounded really high to me as well. That’s why I have it at 30% which is still 3xs what I’ve ever used before.

You actually responded to the person post about it, stating it had to be malted oats and not flaked oats.

They def have a good portion of oats in it you can taste it. Other half confirms oats on their site with the collab. They also use lactose “to balance it out.” Haven’t decided if I’m going to do a 1/2 lb at kegging or not.