Noob Questions

[Nicknack]

Greetings all. I found this forum about a week or two ago and have been digesting a TON of information that is been VERY helpful. This place rocks.

I'm about as green of a noob as they come. I started my first brew 11 days ago. 12 days ago I knew absolutely nothing about brewing. Therefore, as you could probably expect, I know just enough to be dangerous. I'm trying to read as much as I can (and searching when needed) but I still have a few things that I'm not clear on that I'm hoping someone can provide assistance.

1. In a thread "This Vs. That", I read about the pros and cons of racking to primary vs secondary fermentation. The next beer that I'm going to brew is a Sierra Nevada Clone. In the instructions, they tell you to transfer the brew to a secondary fermenter for weeks 3-4. Can I just keep the brew fermenting in the primary for four weeks instead of transferring to a secondary? Also, is really the only difference mainly that I won't get a clearer looking beer by not using a secondary?

2. For Christmas, I got a starter kit from Northern Brewer. It came with two buckets. Based on the advice from a friend, I'm going to purchase a Better Bottle. I found one that has a racking adapter built into it for 60 bucks. I'm thinking about getting that, along with a Better Bottle bung, airlock, wide mouth funnel and a red carboy handle. Does this sound like a good plan?

3. I'm really confused about yeast starters. Just when I thought I had a decent understanding of them, I read some information that contradicted what I previously learned. My friend, who is a brewing veteran, told me that to take my brewing up a notch, I should start using a yeast starter. He also told me that when brewing something like an IPA, I will definitely want to use a yeast starter because if I don't, I might have fermentation issues. However, I'm using dry yeast (at least so far) while he is using liquid yeast. Can someone please help me understand what info is right here?

Thanks so much in advance!



Edited: Number 3 needed it.

 

[MagicMatt]

1. In a thread "This Vs. That", I read about the pros and cons of racking to primary vs secondary fermentation. The next beer that I'm going to brew is a Sierra Nevada Clone. In the instructions, they tell you to transfer the brew to a secondary fermenter for weeks 3-4. Can I just keep the brew fermenting in the primary for four weeks instead of transferring to a secondary? Also, is really the only difference mainly that I won't get a clearer looking beer by not using a secondary?

Yes, you can absolutely keep the beer in primary for the entire time. I believe most SNPA clones call for a dry hop as well, and you can also just do this right in the primary. I would say that "the only difference mainly that I won't get a clearer looking be by not using a secondary" is a false statement. You can get your beer just as clear, and perhaps even clearer, without using a secondary.

If you think about it, when you transfer from primary to secondary, you're exposing your beer to oxygen, and we all know this is not good for the beer. There's also the added risk of contamination or infection. And the process of transferring is almost guaranteed to stir up the yeast, negating some of the clearing that has already happened.

The best way to clear your beer is to let it sit undisturbed in primary for the entire time. I would also cold-crash for 2 or 3 days before kegging or bottling, as this will also help precipitate any residual hop or yeast particles in suspension. You can also look into adding gelatin to aid in the clearing of your beer.

2. For Christmas, I got a starter kit from Northern Brewer. It came with two buckets. Based on the advice from a friend, I'm going to purchase a Better Bottle. I found one that has a racking adapter for 60 bucks. I'm thinking about getting that, along with a Better Bottle Bung and an Airlock. Does this sound like a good plan?

Sounds good to me. Buckets are generally OK for primary, as there is so much gas (CO2) being put off that there's little chance of anything actually getting into the fermentor. But once most of the active fermentation has subsided (i.e. after the 1st week), if the bucket doesn't have a great seal it can possibly allow some nasties to get in there. Also, buckets aren't the best when it comes to thwarting oxygen getting to the beer (those buckets are actually pretty permeable).

3. I'm really confused about yeast starters. Just when I thought I had a decent understanding of them, I read some information that contradicted what I previously learned. On this board, I've read several times that with an extract brew, you don't need to use one. My friend, who is really into all-grain brewing, told me that to take my brewing up a notch, I should start using a yeast starter. He also told me that when brewing something like an IPA, I will definitely want to use a yeast starter because if I didn't, I might have fermentation issues. Can someone please help me understand what info is right here?

There's definitely varying opinions on this, but I find that most 'advanced' brewers will pretty much agree that a starter is a fairly necessary component to their brew schedule most of the time. In fact, there's never a time when I haven't made a yeast starter since I started doing so. Is it required? Of course not. Will it help fermentation start quicker and finish completely? Absolutely.

There have been quite a few non-scientific (and even a few scientific) experiments done to see the effects of under-pitching (essentially just throwing in the yeast from a smackpack or vial) and pitching correct amounts using a starter. Surprisingly, there generally seems to be very little difference in the finished product - but it's during the fermentation that you'll reap the rewards. Under-pitching can also cause under-attenuation and leave your beer cloying, which generally isn't a good thing to most people. While it may not be necessary to use a starter to brew a great beer, it surely does help push it towards greatness to do so, and there's no ill effects of doing so.

 

[olivson]

Everything Matt said plus, welcome to the hobby! I don't know that everyone would agree with me on this, but the biggest complaint I ever hear when people talk about their extract beers is that it is sweet, cloying, or "extract twang" and one of the best ways to avoid that is using a starter, so I would suggest that if you have the gear (and I'm sure you do to do a simple one), it is just as important to do a starter for extract beers, maybe even more so.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

You're pretty well set with #1 and #2. But, just a few things about starters. A starter is for increasing yeast count. You put the yeast in some boiled and cooled extract mixture and the yeast go to town. They feed and multiply. Just how much they multiply you can figure out by using Mr. Malty or Yeastcalc, which will give you a good idea of yeast count.

How much yeast you need is determined by the gravity of your beer. Doesn't matter if it is an extract or AG brew. Higher OG needs more yeast. A 1.050 brew may be OK with a direct pitch of liquid yeast but a 1L starter will be better. Anything over 1.060 definitely needs a starter. A high gravity brew may need a stepped up starter. Lagers always need a starter because they need a lot more yeast than ales.

If you have a big starter, it is usually best to stick it in the fridge for a day after it ferments and then pour off (decant) the clear liquid and just pitch the settled yeast cake into your brew.

Also, starters are just for liquid yeast. You don't do them with dry yeast. If you need more dry yeast, you pitch additional packets. Most dry yeast packets have about twice the yeast count in liquid yeast vials or smack packs.

 

[Nicknack]

You're pretty well set with #1 and #2. But, just a few things about starters. A starter is for increasing yeast count. You put the yeast in some boiled and cooled extract mixture and the yeast go to town. They feed and multiply. Just how much they multiply you can figure out by using Mr. Malty or Yeastcalc, which will give you a good idea of yeast count.

How much yeast you need is determined by the gravity of your beer. Doesn't matter if it is an extract or AG brew. Higher OG needs more yeast. A 1.050 brew may be OK with a direct pitch of liquid yeast but a 1L starter will be better. Anything over 1.060 needs a starter. A high gravity brew may need a stepped up starter. Lagers always need a starter because they need a lot more yeast than ales.

If you have a big starter, it is usually best to stick it in the fridge for a day after it ferments and then pour off (decant) the clear liquid and just pitch the settled yeast cake into your brew.

Also, starters are just for liquid yeast. You don't do them with dry yeast. If you need more dry yeast, you pitch additional packets.

Ahhhhh!! I knew that something didn't sound quite right when I wrote #3. When I was referring to not needing to do a starter, I got confused with all of this new knowledge. I meant dry yeast vs liquid yeast NOT anything about extract vs all-grain. Thank you very much for clarifying - that helps! I will now need to read why people use liquid yeasts as it sounds a lot easier just to use dry. As with everything that I have learned thus far with this hobby, there is a reason for everything!

 

[Dirt_McGirt]

2. For Christmas, I got a starter kit from Northern Brewer. It came with two buckets. Based on the advice from a friend, I'm going to purchase a Better Bottle. I found one that has a racking adapter built into it for 60 bucks. I'm thinking about getting that, along with a Better Bottle bung, airlock, wide mouth funnel and a red carboy handle. Does this sound like a good plan?

While a Better Bottle might be useful, there are other things for about the same $$ you might consider, depending on your situation. Top of the list is whether you can reliably control your fermentation temp, especially with recipes that call for fermenting at lower temps (64F or below). Might consider a temp controller and some sort of DIY fermentation chamber, but that's a whole seperate subject. Another option might be a wort immersion chiller.

 

[Nicknack]

While a Better Bottle might be useful, there are other things for about the same $$ you might consider, depending on your situation. Top of the list is whether you can reliably control your fermentation temp, especially with recipes that call for fermenting at lower temps (64F or below). Might consider a temp controller and some sort of DIY fermentation chamber, but that's a whole seperate subject. Another option might be a wort immersion chiller.

I'm thinking after my next brew, a 10 sq. ft. chest freezer for fermentation and even before that, a wort chiller.

 

[Dirt_McGirt]

Be sure to check out the DIY section if you're a handy person. Wort chillers are a relatively easy place to save a few bucks. And Craigslist or other classifieds usually have used freezers and fridges that you can turn into ferm chambers, etc. for very little scratch.

 

[Nicknack]

Wort chillers are a relatively easy place to save a few bucks.

Hopefully this doesn't show my complete noob-ness, but exactly why is that? Based on what I know, a wort chiller would help me to cool down the wort faster (which I know is obviously good) and in my case, I wouldn't have to buy as much ice to cool it down when placed in my sink. Is there another reason for the cost savings?

Since my first post, I'm now changing my tune a bit. I'm thinking about purchasing a Big Mouth Bubbler with a built-in valve instead of a Better Bottle. For those who use a Big Mouth Bubbler, does the valve rotate by turning it from the outside like the Better Bottle does? I like that feature.

 

[Pantherjon]

Hopefully this doesn't show my complete noob-ness, but exactly why is that? Based on what I know, a wort chiller would help me to cool down the wort faster (which I know is obviously good) and in my case, I wouldn't have to buy as much ice to cool it down when placed in my sink. Is there another reason for the cost savings?

Because you can make your own...Get 25-30 foot length of copper tubing and coil it around an object that is about 10" in diameter(if your any sort of 'handyman')...Voila, you have a wort chiller...Now, on the other hand, if your copper tubing costs more then $60 then buy the pre-made type..

 

[slym2none]

TIL that a yeast starter gets rid of extract twang.

 

[andy6026]

I'm going to offer some opinions different than what others are suggesting:

1) Being even the slightest bit careful when racking beer will significatly mitigate any chances of oxygenating your beer while racking. In the primary fermenter you will get a lot of trub in the bottom, and depending how hoppy the beer is - you may also get some floating hop debris. Some people are able to rack very well directly to their bottle buckets without stirring up that trub into the beer. I'm not one of them. For me I inevitably get trub and hop debris into my bottling bucket which in turn, some gets into the bottles. These can cause the appearance of inconsistent carbonation, as any hop debris in the bottles tends to create nucleation points for Co2 to be released on opening and pouring. For me, this never happened when I included using a secondary in my process. Now I almost always do.

2) If clear beer is important to you then I highly recommend you develop the capacity to 'cold crash' your beer (either in primary or secondary). It's amazing how fast and how well it settles any of the adjuncts to the bottom and compresses it - enabling easier racking. It's totally understandable that most new brewers don't have extra refrigerators to use for cold crashing, but if you can afford the electricity then I highly recommend keeping your eye out for a fridge that is in your price range (second hand fridges can be bought very cheaply if you're patient).

3) The purpose of a yeast starter is to multiply your yeast count to give you enough yeast to do the job properly - without going over! It is possible to 'over-pitch'. On it's own, liquid yeast vials and smack-packs contains too small a cell count to properly ferment normal to high gravity beers without the aid of a starter. While using a "stir plate" as part of a starter will giving you the biggest cell increase, you can also do one without a stir plate. MOST dry yeast packages already contain enough yeast to brew medium gravity batches without making a starter. Unless it's a very high gravity beer (say 1.070 or higher?), you should only use 1 yeast package without a starter, but you should "re-hydrate" the yeast (look up how to do it). So, in short, and assuming we're talking about 5-6 gallon batches: Liquid yeast requires a yeast starter, but dry yeast is best to only re-hydrate. There are online calculators available and easy to use if you're unsure about a higher gravity beer - if you need a starter and how large.

I hope this helps.

Last, when it comes to secondaries I always recommend that every brewer try each way more than once and then continue to do what works the best for you.

 

[eadavis80]

My buddy made his own wort chiller buying the stuff from Lowe's. Took him about an hour and cost him probably $20 in material. I was lucky and got mine as a free 'hand me down' from a retired brewer. Look for sales online on ready-made wort chillers if you're lazy or terrible at building stuff like me. I know Adventures in Homebrewing has sold (and might currently, I have not checked) a wort chiller for as little as like $25 or so. Ice baths get old (and actually fairly pricey) after a while. Figure you're buying like $10 worth of ice for each brew so after several you can see the cost savings of a wort chiller.

 

[eadavis80]

Oh, and one thing I like about Better Bottles or Big Mouths vs. buckets for a primary is you can SEE the fermentation happening. A lot of times it will happen without the airlock doing anything (due to a tiny leak in the bucket's lid) and SEEING the fermentation can ease anxiety of new brewers who are unsure if the wort is actually fermenting. I have 2 buckets and a Big Mouth Bubbler and if I'm only fermenting one beer, I always use my Big Mouth still, for that reason.

 

[brewkinger]

I will now need to read why people use liquid yeasts as it sounds a lot easier just to use dry.

Simple answer.
The variety of liquid yeasts available is much greater than dry.

And....

WELCOME to the Dark Side.

 

[Dirt_McGirt]

Because you can make your own...Get 25-30 foot length of copper tubing and coil it around an object that is about 10" in diameter(if your any sort of 'handyman')...Voila, you have a wort chiller...Now, on the other hand, if your copper tubing costs more then $60 then buy the pre-made type..

This.

 

[Dirt_McGirt]

Deleted duplicate

 

[Dirt_McGirt]

Deleted duplicate.

 

[MagicMatt]

1) Being even the slightest bit careful when racking beer will significatly mitigate any chances of oxygenating your beer while racking. In the primary fermenter you will get a lot of trub in the bottom, and depending how hoppy the beer is - you may also get some floating hop debris. Some people are able to rack very well directly to their bottle buckets without stirring up that trub into the beer. I'm not one of them. For me I inevitably get trub and hop debris into my bottling bucket which in turn, some gets into the bottles. These can cause the appearance of inconsistent carbonation, as any hop debris in the bottles tends to create nucleation points for Co2 to be released on opening and pouring. For me, this never happened when I included using a secondary in my process. Now I almost always do.

If, when you transfer from primary to bottling bucket you are getting trub and hop debris, that means the same thing is happening when you transfer to a secondary. So what's stopping the same thing from occurring when you transfer from secondary to bottling bucket? I think it's bad logic - the reason isn't because you're using a secondary, it's because you're letting it sit longer. When people say "you don't need to use a secondary", what they really mean is "use the primary vessel for secondary fermentation" - i.e., don't do anything to it for another couple of weeks. I'd say up to 90% of brewers on here have abandoned secondaries altogether (though most of us still have exceptions).

Sure, you can be 'the slightest bit careful' and transfer to secondary, or you can not have to worry about it at all and end up with the same exact results. I definitely agree to each his own, but the reason to choose to use a secondary shouldn't be because something in the process is happening that shouldn't be to begin with. Fix the original issue instead of covering it up. If your car's horn went out, sure you could just buy a canned air horn and use it instead - or you can fix the car's horn and not worry about it. What's different about your house or process that prevents you from getting the results everyone else achieves routinely? Find the answer to that and problem solved!



Also to the OP, regarding chillers, you can likely find some on craigslist and the like, from people who are upgrading to plate chillers or CFCs, or just getting out of the hobby.

 

[andy6026]

If, when you transfer from primary to bottling bucket you are getting trub and hop debris, that means the same thing is happening when you transfer to a secondary. So what's stopping the same thing from occurring when you transfer from secondary to bottling bucket? I think it's bad logic - the reason isn't because you're using a secondary, it's because you're letting it sit longer. When people say "you don't need to use a secondary", what they really mean is "use the primary vessel for secondary fermentation" - i.e., don't do anything to it for another couple of weeks. I'd say up to 90% of brewers on here have abandoned secondaries altogether (though most of us still have exceptions).

Sure, you can be 'the slightest bit careful' and transfer to secondary, or you can not have to worry about it at all and end up with the same exact results. I definitely agree to each his own, but the reason to choose to use a secondary shouldn't be because something in the process is happening that shouldn't be to begin with. Fix the original issue instead of covering it up. If your car's horn went out, sure you could just buy a canned air horn and use it instead - or you can fix the car's horn and not worry about it. What's different about your house or process that prevents you from getting the results everyone else achieves routinely? Find the answer to that and problem solved!

My set-up is such that I have to move the fermenter some distance (including up a flight of stairs) before racking and this inevitably stirs up some of the trub. Indeed as you state, it also means that I stir some of it up when I rack from the secondary. However, you are leaving out one crucial detail - the sheer amount of unwanted adjuncts that find their way to finish line. Each racking process lessens the total amount undesirables. I suppose I could engage in some home construction to fix the original issue, but for now a primary followed by a cold-crashed secondary works beautifully. Despite my irrationality, I'm going to stick with it.

 

[Nicknack]

Thanks for all of the information! Based on responses in this thread and other threads in the forum, I am planning on...

1. Sticking with just a primary fermentation and not using a secondary.

2. Buying a Big Mouth Bubbler (rather than a Better Bottle)

3. Sticking with dry yeast for now but adding one step... rehydrating my yeast.

I'm also going to buy an immersion chiller from Northern Brewer because I'm not the least bit handy (with the steel, if you know what I mean).