Noob Question - Please ... Be Gentle

[WillyWonka71]

All,

I have been reading The Complete Joy of Homebrewing and I just can't put this thing down. I have read hours of posts here and I cannot thank you enough for the wealth of knowledge.


My situation is simple: I am using the WLP833 yeast that states the temps are optimal between 40* to 60*.

WLP833 German Bock Lager Yeast

From the Alps of southern Bavaria, this yeast produces a beer that is well balanced between malt and hop character. The excellent malt profile makes it well suited for Bocks, Doppelbocks, and Oktoberfest style beers. Very versatile lager yeast, it is so well balanced that it has gained tremendous popularity for use in Classic American style Pilsners. Also good for Helles style lager beer.
Attenuation: 70-76%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Fermentation Temperature: 48-55°F
Alcohol Tolerance: Medium-High


When I made the wort, I read the directions carefully and it stated "If you have to ferment at room temp..." I used this option in the beginning.

Since I am new to home brewing, I do not have the necessary equipment (nor the knowledge) to make sure I am fermenting at the right temps. I let the wort start fermenting at around 72* for a day and a half.

I posted an earlier question about this but I was able to make a "swamp cooler" and dropped my temps to around 50*. I have been at a constant 50* for the past the 3 days and I hope to remain around the 50* mark.


After reading, I assume I will have 'off flavors' but I am wondering to what extent? I plan on keeping it in my primary around 2 weeks but I will be leaving on a trip (out of town for 3 days). I will not be able to keep my temps as cool and I certainly do not want to bottle too soon.


With the fluctuations of temps, I really do not want to ruin this batch. It's hard enough just waiting 4 weeks for the beer to condition let alone wait that long only to drink "less than average beer". Ugh!


Any suggestions or comment? I need some solid recommendations.



Thanks Everyone!


-WillyWonka71

 

[Double_D]

Oh man... Make sure you take notes and remember what you did on this one. I did I bock for my third all grain batch and it was a nightmare. There's so many things that are different about lager style beers. RDWHAHB is very important on this. Just bottle it when it's ready. And I'd look into something easy like an Ordinary Bitter or Pale Ale for your next batch.

 

[twistr25]

Lagers are typically slower fermenting beers, so if you caught it in time you will probably minimize the off-flavors. However, keeping a constant temperature is important. Not to mention, they typically need a diacetyl rest for a couple days before the actual lagering phase. So do the best you can on this one, then I would recommend going to ales, much easier to deal with.

 

[WillyWonka71]

Thanks Double D. I am very meticulous person and I should have done a BIT more research on this one. I just home the "off-flavors" did not ruin this batch. (Meaning drinkable but not great beer). If so, you live and learn.

Ugh! Man, I thought I was on my game on this one.



Thanks for your input on this.



-WillyWonka71

 

[WillyWonka71]

Thanks twistr25. I appreciate that. I will try and post some pics soon enough to show the fermentation process.



-WillyWonka71

 

[gr8shandini]

I hate to say it, but I think you're going to have some trouble with this beer. In addition to fermenting in the 50s, you really need the extended cold storage in the 40s that gives a lager its name. Rule of thumb is one week for every 10 points of OG. So for a bock, you're looking at six weeks to two months. That's going to be hard to maintain with a swamp cooler. "How to Brew" has some good information (as always) on lagering. Just ignore the stuff about autolysis since everyone - including the author - now knows that it's just not a factor in homebrewing.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter10.html

As for what to do from here, I'd be tempted to bottle early, let 'em carb up at room temperature, then hide some in the back of the fridge for as long as you can stand. It's not the proper process, but at this point "drinkable" is about the best you can hope for. And it would free up your fermenter to try your hand at something more beginner friendly like a porter or pale ale.

 

[passedpawn]

After reading, I assume I will have 'off flavors' but I am wondering to what extent? I plan on keeping it in my primary around 2 weeks but I will be leaving on a trip (out of town for 3 days). I will not be able to keep my temps as cool and I certainly do not want to bottle too soon.

With the fluctuations of temps, I really do not want to ruin this batch. It's hard enough just waiting 4 weeks for the beer to condition let alone wait that long only to drink "less than average beer". Ugh!

It'll be OK. If you are going to warm-ferment a lager, a bock is the one to do it on.

The "off flavors" cause by warm fermentation aren't a big deal. The esters you'll get from the yeast will affect the crispness of the beer, but I wouldn't worry too much about it. You'll probably know that it could be better when you drink it, but you won't spit it out.

 

[StoneHands]

833 is my go-to lager yeast. I personally think it's very forgiving. I'm guessing just pitched the single vial at 72 and didn't make the starter, correct? If so, you probably were slightly better off pitching at a higher temp because your cell count was much lower than optimum. This gave it a chance to multiply a little quicker. Was it active when you dropped the temp in your swamp cooler? My guess is you will get a nice drinkable beer (with some off flavors, maybe some fruitiness), but it does need to be lagered. Wait until it reaches final gravity, if you don't have a means to bulk lager near freezing, bottle it and stash some in the back of the fridge after it carbs as was suggested above.
As for going out of town, how long will it have been at 50? If it's been at least a week by that point, it's OK to let it warm up some, most of the fermentation is complete, any off flavors that you have are already in there.
I use a swamp cooler on all of my lagers, it works better than people realize I think. Next time, make a starter, pitch cool, and hold it at 50 until it's done or just before if you want to do a d-rest. Don't give up on lagers, they're worth it.

 

[WillyWonka71]

All,

Thank you so much for your advice. I really, really appreciate it.


Stone,

I will be out of town for 2 and a half days. At least it will not be a week. Do you guys feel that after I come, should I lower temp again and wait a week or so (would be 3 weeks in the primary) before I attempt to bottle, let it carb up for 3 weeks then shove in the back of the fridge for as long as I can stand it?

I am new to the home brewing game so I probably need to get a secondary container in the near future. I really appreciate the advice. I had no idea that a lager was fermented at colder temps. I just love a great bock. I should have researched this a bit more BEFORE I attempted it.


Thanks again everyone!



-WillyWonka71

 

[HootHootHoot]

I think the off flavors will just be like something is not tasting right. It won't be a ruined beer, but just not as good as it could be.

I would've recommend using California Lager yeast if you want to ferment a lager at room temps. This does well up to almost 70 deg. So if you have a basement and live where you get an actual winter, you can throw it in your basement.

As others have mentioned, if you caught it in time it should be okay. I wouldnt worry too much about it. Typically aging can help get rid of most off flavors. Or at least dull them down. It just won't be a beer you could enter into competitions.


My advice, stick to ales until you get the technology to control your ferment temps and lager at a constant temp. With this batch, age it a bit longer in bottles and it should still be okay!

 

[HootHootHoot]

Willie,

Sounds like you will be gone and the temp will rise. This is perfect for the rest mentioned above that is required for lagers. You need to lager this though for 6-8 weeks as cold as you can get to freezing. If you bottle right away you won't get a good tasting bock.

So I would come back, put in the fridge for 2 months, and then bottle

 

[WillyWonka71]

Thank you HootHootHoot


I appreciate it.


-WillyWonka71

 

[StoneHands]

Agreed. It'll probably be done when you get back, so no need to drop it again in the 50's. Unless you keep going into the 30's....

 

[WillyWonka71]

Do you think that I should bottle after 2 weeks then let it carb for three weeks THEN put in fridge for a month or two?


I just want to make sure I don't screw this up (any more than I already have! ha ha)



Thanks Guys!


-WillyWonka71

 

[HootHootHoot]

Edited, see post below

 

[HootHootHoot]

I think you'll be in good shape. It's not optimal, but it's making lemonade out of lemons. You'll have beer, it won't taste like motor oil. It may be "okay" or it could be so incredible you want to do it again the same way. We've all done something "incorrect" with beer and had an experience where it turned out better than we had hoped.

Kudos to you for catching the fermentation early. I think you saved your beer with that swamp cooler.

 

[StoneHands]

I would prime and bottle, allow it to carb for 3-4 weeks, and THEN "lager" in the bottle. I think this will give everything in the beer a better chance to fall out and clear up.

 

[HootHootHoot]

Okay scratch what I said above.

Searching bottle lagering on this forum I've come to the conclusion that you are better off carbing it and then lagering it.

So your order should be:
Primary for 10-14 days (take a hydrometer reading to make sure the yeast almost done but not quite)
Diacetyl rest at room temp for 2-3 days
Prime and bottle
Bottle condition 3-4 weeks until carbonated
Lager for 6-8 weeks
Enjoy

 

[WillyWonka71]

Is it normal for the fermenting to smell like "Rhino Farts?" I have been fermenting for the past 4 days at 50*F. I took a small sample today and I nearly fell over. HOLY MOLY!


Thanks guys!



-WillyWonka71

 

[HootHootHoot]

Not really sure what rhino farts smell like.

Lager yeast ferments with a sulfur/rotten egg smell. Very normal. This taste/smell goes away with lagering

 

[VladOfTrub]

"How to Brew has some good information (as always) on lagering. Just ignore the stuff about autolysis since everyone - including the author - now knows that it's just not a factor in homebrewing."

The "author" is a book salesman. Autolysis shows up in homebrew as chill haze, poor head retention and other things. It occurs more often in high gravity brews that are poorly brewed. When attention to pH and fermenting temperatures are ignored and the beer lays on the yeast in a wide bottom fermentor for a long time. A conical fermentor lessens the chance of autolysed yeast damaging the beer because the surface area of the yeast cake is much smaller. When yeast begins to autolyse it produces a protein that will damage the beer. If you catch it in time and get the beer off the yeast, you'll get chill haze. The beer won't fall bright during lagering. The beer will need to be filtered to get rid of the haze. The off flavor and rank smell comes when the yeast has really damaged the beer. In a well aged lager that is damaged by autolysis. The protein created will congeal into a golf ball size gob of hazy looking snot, floating in the beer. Other factors contribute to chill haze due to poor brewing processes, too. If yeast is washed and reused more than two times, autolysis has started. Usually a new brewer attempting a lager or pilsner goes from boiler to bottle to belly in four or five weeks. The beer didn't have quite enough time to get wrecked. So, the "author" is somewhat right when he says not to worry about autolysis in homebrewing. But, age the beer out like it's supposed to be, then you'll see and taste the imperfections. He may be right because in his world a hazy pilsner or lager, tasting like rubber or tasting like Alpo smells, and having a gob of snot floating around is OK. The seasoned lager and pilsner brewers on this forum, that age out there beer for months and have it always consistent and tasting good. Pays attention to processes a new brewer doesn't have down yet or have the equipment needed to brew lagers the best way. Also, don't lager in the bottle. Use a keg. Let the gunk drop out in the keg then bottle or keg and carb, so the gunk won't be in the bottle or serving keg.

 

[WillyWonka71]

Thank you all so much. I checked my hydrometer yesterday and it was around 1.010. I will give this one about another week and a half before I attempt to do anything else with it. I really appreciate all the assistance and advice. I will keep you updated on my progress.


Thanks again Everyone!


-WillyWonka71

 

[gr8shandini]

Vlad,

I encourage you to read one of the many "how long is too long" threads on here. I don't buy into aging beers, but some of the brewers here have left theirs in the primary for 3, 6, even 8 months with no detectible flaws. There's no reason to believe that Will here is going to wait nearly that long, so what's the point in trying to scare the new guy?

Same goes for the keg suggestion. Being a new brewer, he probably doesn't have one. That's reinforced by his asking "when should I bottle," not "when should I keg." Let's try to help this guy out instead of airing whatever beef you have with John Palmer (by the way, if his primary motivation is to sell books, why is he giving the first edition away for free online?).

 

[WillyWonka71]

If it helps, I did however sign up for the kegconnection giveaway! (Jus sayin)


Thank you gr8shandini

 

[Double_D]

"How to Brew has some good information (as always) on lagering. Just ignore the stuff about autolysis since everyone - including the author - now knows that it's just not a factor in homebrewing."

The "author" is a book salesman. Autolysis shows up in homebrew as chill haze, poor head retention and other things. It occurs more often in high gravity brews that are poorly brewed. When attention to pH and fermenting temperatures are ignored and the beer lays on the yeast in a wide bottom fermentor for a long time. A conical fermentor lessens the chance of autolysed yeast damaging the beer because the surface area of the yeast cake is much smaller. When yeast begins to autolyse it produces a protein that will damage the beer. If you catch it in time and get the beer off the yeast, you'll get chill haze. The beer won't fall bright during lagering. The beer will need to be filtered to get rid of the haze. The off flavor and rank smell comes when the yeast has really damaged the beer. In a well aged lager that is damaged by autolysis. The protein created will congeal into a golf ball size gob of hazy looking snot, floating in the beer. Other factors contribute to chill haze due to poor brewing processes, too. If yeast is washed and reused more than two times, autolysis has started. Usually a new brewer attempting a lager or pilsner goes from boiler to bottle to belly in four or five weeks. The beer didn't have quite enough time to get wrecked. So, the "author" is somewhat right when he says not to worry about autolysis in homebrewing. But, age the beer out like it's supposed to be, then you'll see and taste the imperfections. He may be right because in his world a hazy pilsner or lager, tasting like rubber or tasting like Alpo smells, and having a gob of snot floating around is OK. The seasoned lager and pilsner brewers on this forum, that age out there beer for months and have it always consistent and tasting good. Pays attention to processes a new brewer doesn't have down yet or have the equipment needed to brew lagers the best way. Also, don't lager in the bottle. Use a keg. Let the gunk drop out in the keg then bottle or keg and carb, so the gunk won't be in the bottle or serving keg.

I can't figure this out. First autolysis has no effect, then there's a tirade about the effect of autolysis? WTF?

 

[HootHootHoot]

I can't figure this out. First autolysis has no effect, then there's a tirade about the effect of autolysis? WTF?

I agree, seemed like the guy had a bigger beef with john Palmer than he had a desire to help this guy out.

The guy above said he doesn't buy into aging beers... That's fine for ales, but for a lager it's required.

Yes, you can leave it in your primary for several weeks or months and do just fine without issues

 

[MotorcycleMatt]

"How to Brew has some good information (as always) on lagering. Just ignore the stuff about autolysis since everyone - including the author - now knows that it's just not a factor in homebrewing."

The "author" is a book salesman. Autolysis shows up in homebrew as chill haze, poor head retention and other things. It occurs more often in high gravity brews that are poorly brewed. When attention to pH and fermenting temperatures are ignored and the beer lays on the yeast in a wide bottom fermentor for a long time. A conical fermentor lessens the chance of autolysed yeast damaging the beer because the surface area of the yeast cake is much smaller. When yeast begins to autolyse it produces a protein that will damage the beer. If you catch it in time and get the beer off the yeast, you'll get chill haze. The beer won't fall bright during lagering. The beer will need to be filtered to get rid of the haze. The off flavor and rank smell comes when the yeast has really damaged the beer. In a well aged lager that is damaged by autolysis. The protein created will congeal into a golf ball size gob of hazy looking snot, floating in the beer. Other factors contribute to chill haze due to poor brewing processes, too. If yeast is washed and reused more than two times, autolysis has started. Usually a new brewer attempting a lager or pilsner goes from boiler to bottle to belly in four or five weeks. The beer didn't have quite enough time to get wrecked. So, the "author" is somewhat right when he says not to worry about autolysis in homebrewing. But, age the beer out like it's supposed to be, then you'll see and taste the imperfections. He may be right because in his world a hazy pilsner or lager, tasting like rubber or tasting like Alpo smells, and having a gob of snot floating around is OK. The seasoned lager and pilsner brewers on this forum, that age out there beer for months and have it always consistent and tasting good. Pays attention to processes a new brewer doesn't have down yet or have the equipment needed to brew lagers the best way. Also, don't lager in the bottle. Use a keg. Let the gunk drop out in the then bottle or keg and carb, so the gunk won't be in the bottle or serving keg.

I basically disagree with most of this post. My barleywine, a high gravity beer, tastes fantastic after 2 months on the yeast cake.

 

[gr8shandini]

. . .
The guy above said he doesn't buy into aging beers... That's fine for ales, but for a lager it's required. . .

Sorry for the confusion. I was talking about the attitude that you'll encounter in the threads I was talking about. You know, the guys who think that two months on the yeast is the only way to make a good pale ale. However, for lagers, I definitely agree that some aging is required.

 

[WillyWonka71]

Maybe by Thanksgiving I will be ready to have a beer! HA HA HA I had no idea what I was getting into. I cannot thank you guys enough for all your input on assisting me with this.


Thank you all,

WillyWonka71