NHC competition - can't register, server slammed?

[GrogNerd]

got 3 payment confirmation emails, credit card charged 3 times, no email saying I didn't pay

but site says not paid

sent 2 messages to region site director with no answer and no confirmation my message was even sent.

Your message has been sent to Frank Barickman, Region 10 Site Director.
Additionally, a copy has been sent to the email address you provided.

no copy in my inbox

 

[AnOldUR]

All of my numbers were under 750 #14, 214, 252, 440 and I paid right away. You think that they should continue get bumped after 24 hours? Even though People (like myself) have have paid and received receipt and CC charge, but have not been marked as paid?

I wouldn't expect you to be bumped if you have proof of payment before the 24 hour dead line even if it hasn't shown up on the system yet. Hopefully this is something that they'll work through before re-opening the system for new entries.

 

[GrogNerd]

I wouldn't expect you to be bumped if you have proof of payment before the 24 hour dead line even if it hasn't shown up on the system yet. Hopefully this is something that they'll work through before re-opening the system for new entries.

a reasonable expectation

don't think we're dealing with "reasonable" here

 

[AnOldUR]

don't think we're dealing with "reasonable" here

That's not fair to the AHA people who are dedicated to homebrewing. They are reasonable, but had to depend on IT people who let them down. Until I see otherwise, I'll believe that they will make the right decisions in the end.

 

[GrogNerd]

That's not fair to the AHA people who are dedicated to homebrewing. They are reasonable, but had to depend on IT people who let them down. Until I see otherwise, I'll believe that they will make the right decisions in the end.

didn't specify AHA people or IT people or PEOPLE at all.

until I can get an answer from ANY people, I'll stand by my assessment. as it is, I haven't even received confirmation that my messages have been delivered. I understand they're swamped, but even a message of "yeah, yeah, we're workin' on it, hold yer friggin horses" would be appreciated

if it's 100% technical problem, there is no reasonable involved at all

 

[NervousDad]

But they have left the people who have paid/not marked as paid in the dark and that's not the IT department's fault, that is the AHA's fault.

Instead an email message saying "if you paid and your entries are not marked as paid you'll be ok". I get a message that my entries will be deleted or bumped with the same canned apology at the end of the message. They obviously had the means to add some sort of game plan, but they chose not to.

 

[GrogNerd]

I get a message that my entries will be deleted or bumped with the same canned apology at the end of the message. They obviously had the means to add some sort of game plan, but they chose not to.

haven't even got that.

& I'm not about to pay a 4th time

 

[osagedr]

That's not fair to the AHA people who are dedicated to homebrewing. They are reasonable, but had to depend on IT people who let them down. Until I see otherwise, I'll believe that they will make the right decisions in the end.

Passing the buck won't cut it IMO. In the end the AHA is responsible and they seem to have manned up on that front.

The silver lining is that the support for the competition itself is beyond incredible. They'll work the kinks out.

Definitely need to consider the MCAB model.

 

[brettwasbtd]

I agree with what some others have said about maybe not crowning any future ninkasi winners. It originally was dominated by people who would submit tons of entries...close to one for every style. They tried to lower the total entries this year, but due to demand I doubt anyone was able to get 15 entries....and if they did how many others were able to do that? If you got 15 entries and end up winning ninkasi...but were the only person able to submit that many - up to you how valid that was!

It really has just grown so much and with how competitions work, to have a chance at medaling I feel you need to be submitting 3-5 40+ beers. Too many variables and subjectivity. I was able to get through the system with 2 entries under 750 confirmed. 1 over the 750 mark...so I doubt I will get that , but with all the fuss maybe I should be retracting my last entry to be fair. I'll see how this plays out.

 

[GrogNerd]

I agree with what some others have said about maybe not crowning any future ninkasi winners. It originally was dominated by people who would submit tons of entries...close to one for every style. They tried to lower the total entries this year, but due to demand I doubt anyone was able to get 15 entries....and if they did how many others were able to do that? If you got 15 entries and end up winning ninkasi...but were the only person able to submit that many - up to you how valid that was!

It really has just grown so much and with how competitions work, to have a chance at medaling I feel you need to be submitting 3-5 40+ beers. Too many variables and subjectivity. I was able to get through the system with 2 entries under 750 confirmed. 1 over the 750 mark...so I doubt I will get that , but with all the fuss maybe I should be retracting my last entry to be fair. I'll see how this plays out.

LOVE the avatar... HTTR!

 

[brettwasbtd]

Or another option would be the MCAB model, but maybe have the set list of qualifying comps and you get points in those as well for ninkasi. That way someone who really wanted to be the homebrewer of the year could enter multiple qualified comps, and obtain points for winning those categories. This would more incorporate a full years worth of competition excellence

 

[machfive55]

Pardon my ignorance, what is MCAB?

 

[Darwin18]

I believe that's how the Carolina Brewer of the Year works.

 

[brettwasbtd]

Pardon my ignorance, what is MCAB?

http://masterhomebrewer.org/info_page.htm

 

[AnchorBock]

I agree that an MCAB format would work well, but I think the AHA likes being able to say that they host the biggest competition in the world so unless they are willing to reformat/remarket (so to speak) I don't see it happening. It would also potentially kill MCAB if they went to that format..

 

[Schemy]

I recieved another confirmation email. All my entries are under 750 and all ar marked paid. Sounds like I'm one of the lucky ones.

As for what should be done to fix this issue. What about doing regional entry based on your zip code? Then you would be assigned a certain day to enter for your region. St. Paul would enter on Monday, KC on Tuesday, and so on. You would be delegated to your region and time based on you address. I know some feel like judging is better in some regions over others, but that would help to aleviate the rush of so many signing up all at once.

 

[Chriso]

I logged in, confirmed my entry, and it does show as paid.

I hope everyone will continue to exhibit patience with them, I'm sure they are mortified at what a technical disaster this was -- but, as an IT guy, I know these things "just happen" sometimes, especially when you switch to a new piece of software, and especially when you have a very large, quickly growing, very enthusiastic customer base that is hammering down your doors trying to get into your server.

AHA has accepted responsibility for the technical failings, but I know that I assign far more of the blame to their service provider, as I'm sure they discussed the level of traffic they would be expecting, and the SP probably just laughed it off as a gross overestimation. I have found that IT service providers / contractors can be notoriously cheap in terms of overpromising and underdelivering. I hope the AHA finds a better provider in the future to make sure it can handle the load of what I guesstimate to be ~20,000 simultaneous connections from across the continent.

Edit: Schemy, I like your zip-code based suggestion! I appreciate a creative approach that staggers the demand across a longer period of time.

 

[osagedr]

It would also potentially kill MCAB if they went to that format..

I don't see why, and I'm not sure anyone would care anyway. Most people have never heard of the MCAB.

 

[capnjb]

but I know that I assign far more of the blame to their service provider, as I'm sure they discussed the level of traffic they would be expecting, and the SP probably just laughed it off as a gross overestimation. I have found that IT service providers / contractors can be notoriously cheap in terms of overpromising and underdelivering.

They look to be hosted by ViaWest. ViaWest has 24 enterprise level datacenters nationwide. ViaWest could handle this traffic without blinking. The competition used a free, open source software package that uses a free mysql database. I'm not a db guy but I believe mysql has a default maximum connection of 151.

Now, which sounds more plausable to you... a national service provider couldn't handle the bandwidth of 5000 connections, or the free software that was probably never load tested to this level couldn't handle the connections?

 

[Huaco]

There are still lots of spots open in less crowded centers. Once they shift the "over-fill" to the other judging centers, there may not be much time to claim the open spots. I consider myself lucky to have slipped in on the registration window of just a few hours.

With last year taking 48 hours to fill, I think this took them completely by surprise. I feel so sorry for the I.T. crew involved in this debacle. I know it wasn't their intent for this to happen and there must be a LOT of hair-pulling going on since yesterday's events...

Seattle, WA Judging Center http://brewers.informz.net/z/cjUucD9...yNQ/index.html
There are 657 entries (0 paid and received) from 170 registered participants, judges, and stewards.
Pleasanton, CA Judging Center http://brewers.informz.net/z/cjUucD9...yNg/index.html
There are 747 entries (0 paid and received) from 216 registered participants, judges, and stewards.
San Diego, CA Judging Center http://brewers.informz.net/z/cjUucD9...yNw/index.html
There are 819 entries (0 paid and received) from 231 registered participants, judges, and stewards.
Denver, CO Judging Center http://brewers.informz.net/z/cjUucD9...yOA/index.html
There are 760 entries (0 paid and received) from 218 registered participants, judges, and stewards.
Tulsa, OK Judging Center http://brewers.informz.net/z/cjUucD9...yOQ/index.html
There are 396 entries (0 paid and received) from 111 registered participants, judges, and stewards.
Kansas City, MO Judging Center http://brewers.informz.net/z/cjUucD9...zMA/index.html
There are 405 entries (0 paid and received) from 113 registered participants, judges, and stewards.
Saint Paul, MN Judging Center http://brewers.informz.net/z/cjUucD9...zMQ/index.html
There are 499 entries (0 paid and received) from 145 registered participants, judges, and stewards.
Milwaukee, WI Judging Center http://brewers.informz.net/z/cjUucD9...zMg/index.html
There are 554 entries (0 paid and received) from 167 registered participants, judges, and stewards.
Atlanta, GA Judging Center http://brewers.informz.net/z/cjUucD9...zMw/index.html
There are 758 entries (0 paid and received) from 250 registered participants, judges, and stewards.
Zanesville, OH Judging Center http://brewers.informz.net/z/cjUucD9...zNA/index.html
There are 943 entries (0 paid and received) from 320 registered participants, judges, and stewards.
New York, NY Judging Center http://brewers.informz.net/z/cjUucD9...zNQ/index.html
There are 928 entries (0 paid and received) from 351 registered participants, judges, and stewards.

There are only 784 spots open in the entire competition... Good luck if you haven't entered and wanted to.

 

[Yooper]

I think I'm going to be judging in Milwaukee for the first round (not 100% sure yet).

I think that last year was the first year that let you choose your region. Before that, the format was "if you live in WI, MN, IL, ND, SD Etc, send to Illinois" They had regions set up, and if you entered in the wrong region you were disqualified. I can't remember why they changed that exactly, but I think it was because some places (east coast, west coast) filled up fast while there were still openings in places like Chicago.

In other words, I can think of no perfect system for entries. But registering needs to be fixed, and I know that will be a major topic for the AHA governing committee!

 

[Bobby_M]

Or another option would be the MCAB model, but maybe have the set list of qualifying comps and you get points in those as well for ninkasi. That way someone who really wanted to be the homebrewer of the year could enter multiple qualified comps, and obtain points for winning those categories. This would more incorporate a full years worth of competition excellence

I think the biggest challenge to tying NHC to other comps, whether they be treated as qualifying rounds for regionals or purely points based is the additional overhead of making sure the comps are run to acceptable standards and the results are tied to AHA member numbers. I guess it's as simple as collecting AHA numbers when registering for the comps for the latter purpose.

I'm still adamant that conference pass holders, under the current two round model, should have a guaranteed single entry into the first round, and AHA members in general should have a secondary window for very limited entries.

However, I can see in the future that perhaps AHA can more tightly integrate with BJCP such that any BJCP sanctioned comp can act as a qualifying round. Perhaps something as simple as: In order to qualify for entry into the NHC first round, you must have medaled in any BJCP sanctioned comp for your entry category in the prior comp year.

Even that is highly restrictive, but it doesn't sound like there's much opportunity to expand the total number of entries allowed simply due to lack of judge concentration.

 

[GrogNerd]

finally a response from someone: the region 10 site director

stay tuned. I have nothing to do with this portion of the competition. AHA is working very hard and some people have had some long days! I have over 250 emails of similar issues. Crazy!

hated to respond to him, just adding another to the 250 emails, but told him that I appreciated the response and good luck

 

[StoneHands]

One suggestion that I have, is that I believe the registration for the competition should happen before the registration for the conference, that way you know you have a spot in the comp before signing up for the conference.

I know this is an absolute nightmare for the AHA and is truly not what they expected. I would imagine that the competition is just about Janis' full time job there - nearly all year. To have all of the hard work that she (and everyone else there for that matter) has done be marred by several hours worth of IT problems I'm sure is heartbreaking.

I've entered only 2 comps in my life, this'll be the third (they've all been NHC). Competitions are against the law in my state, and the AHA is working hard to help change that for us. Even if I hadn't gotten my entries in, I'd still be a supporting member. I believe they'll get it sorted out to the satisfaction of most.

 

[machfive55]

The conference and the competition are sort-of different animals. I see how they are related and people that go to the conference want to have at least one beer in the comp so they have the chance to be there if they win. That said I do like the idea of guaranteeing one entry to conference attendees. I'm also in the camp that the comp should be open only to AHA members, that might help a little. But overall, I think if you want to guarantee the best beers then you should have to qualify in some way to get to nationals...i.e. the MCAB idea.

I also think the AHA should consider splitting into regions and doing regional conferences...this would make the travel thing easier for more people. I realize the scope of work in planning one conference let alone two or three but we might be at the point with this thing that it is just not managable doing one. If the AHA is going to grow they have to be willing to accommodate everyone the best they can.

 

[Chriso]

They look to be hosted by ViaWest. ViaWest has 24 enterprise level datacenters nationwide. ViaWest could handle this traffic without blinking. The competition used a free, open source software package that uses a free mysql database. I'm not a db guy but I believe mysql has a default maximum connection of 151.

Now, which sounds more plausable to you... a national service provider couldn't handle the bandwidth of 5000 connections, or the free software that was probably never load tested to this level couldn't handle the connections?

Well, I am not a web or network infrastructure guy, I do hands-on help desk work, rebuilding PCs and backing up data and running around with a HandyCam to take recordings. So I'm not going to pretend like I know what they're dealing with or how to fix the problem.

If what you say is true, I would hope that the service provider they're paying to help them would also give them consultation, and might point out to them that the SQL database is the weak link in their system.

My point was merely that they are paying someone to provide some or all of the service to them. If the failure was on part of the service that they are contracting out, that's on the provider - if the failure was on their own design end, they've already issued multiple, seemingly genuine apologies.

I hope they fix this next time just as much as anyone else hopes they fix it. But at the end of the day, I think an IT issue is an awfully silly thing for so many people to collectively lose their everloving **** over. That's just my opinion.

 

[machfive55]

So, I'm registered and paid, the system shows me as registered and my beers have the green checks, I even go the e-mail saying I'm good to go...but, my beers are over the limit for my site. So, am i good or not? I'm hoping at this point they shift the overage to other sites so I can still compete. I'm really hoping at this point I don't get hosed because I picked the wrong site.

I understand that there were a lot of issues, at this point they only thing that will make me peeved is if I get bumped for picking the wrong site. It was hard to even tell where to go since the main page was not always giving accurate info.

 

[dstar26t]

The competition is already set up like the MCAB, there is a qualifying round and a final round. There needs to be a way for everyone who wants to enter 15 beers to be able to though. The rules need to be changed or there needs to be more judge centers. I was upset at first that Philly wasn't a judging center again this year. We just had an 861 entrant competition over the weekend that went smooth. I accepted it and planned to drive to Brooklyn to drop off my and other peoples entries and then visit Brooklyn Brewery or something. Don't have to worry about that now since the registration process was a total joke. If they want Ninkasi to have any meaning this year, they should void yesterday, re-group, and try again.

 

[NervousDad]

And Still no word from the AHA about the payment status issues

 

[brettwasbtd]

I think the biggest challenge to tying NHC to other comps, whether they be treated as qualifying rounds for regionals or purely points based is the additional overhead of making sure the comps are run to acceptable standards and the results are tied to AHA member numbers. I guess it's as simple as collecting AHA numbers when registering for the comps for the latter purpose.

I'm still adamant that conference pass holders, under the current two round model, should have a guaranteed single entry into the first round, and AHA members in general should have a secondary window for very limited entries.

However, I can see in the future that perhaps AHA can more tightly integrate with BJCP such that any BJCP sanctioned comp can act as a qualifying round. Perhaps something as simple as: In order to qualify for entry into the NHC first round, you must have medaled in any BJCP sanctioned comp for your entry category in the prior comp year.

Even that is highly restrictive, but it doesn't sound like there's much opportunity to expand the total number of entries allowed simply due to lack of judge concentration.

There would definitely need to be some quality control on qualifying competitions. I like the conference pass holder idea, however, I could see people booking conference pass just to guarantee a spot, and then backing out later after they have registered.

As someone else mentioned, the MCAB seems to have a lesser known following. Maybe all of us glory/medal hunters should start working towards participating in the MCAB and limit our NHC entries to our absolute best beer or so

 

[WhiteDog87]

I don't know about the other drop off sites, but san diego filled in about 2 hours. After being frustrated and giving up I decided to put it off till the evening. Luckily my fiancee stayed on the computer trying and registered a couple entries for me before it filled up, other wise I would be screwed!

I think they really need to do some reconciliation with people who were trying to enter when the window opened and couldn't. I was still not able to add all my entries, and I'm sure tons others did not get in at all. Obviously there is a limit to how many they can accept, but the situation is pretty unfair to those that didn't get in.

 

[Bobby_M]

I could see people booking conference pass just to guarantee a spot, and then backing out later after they have registered.

Don't get me started on that. I don't know why they support full refund cancellations at all. It contributes to the mad rush at the beginning because "hey, why not!"

 

[NervousDad]

Finally an update.

NHC Registration Update as of 10:30 am MST on Wednesday, February 27:
The AHA is aware of and actively working to troubleshoot a variety of National Homebrew Competition (NHC) registration payment issues, including some instances of multiple payments. As soon as possible, we will resolve overpayments and any other payment issues.
Per Tuesday evening’s emails to individuals with existing entries that were not yet paid, the system will accept payments through 1:00 pm MST/3:00 EST today (Weds., Feb. 27), with the exception of those judge centers that have reached a capacity of 750 paid entries (New York is currently maxed out and others will follow as payments are received). Unpaid entries in judge centers that have reached the capacity limit for paid entries will be reassigned to an alternate region, and registrants will have an opportunity to pay for those entries at a later date if they so choose. Once today’s 1:00 pm MST deadline for payments on existing entries is passed, the AHA will have data to troubleshoot and resolve payment issues, and will be able to complete a final tally of paid registrations. Note that no entries will be added or rejected (paid or unpaid) until the AHA can resolve all existing payment issues. We are doing our best to resolve these issues as efficiently as possible, but expect that it may take another full business day or more to identify and resolve these payment issues.
From there, we will communicate about the status of 2013 NHC registrations and next steps for the competition. Rest assured that all currently registered entries will have an opportunity to be judged in the competition.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Finally an update.

Finally some reassuring news

 

[Xpertskir]

DOH....

On a plane, among other forms of transportation, when this started yesterday and got shut out...


Guess Im waiting til next year, unless more spots open up in all this confusion.

 

[dfess1]

What would be so wrong in day 1 only being available to paid AHA members, and you only get to submit 1 beer, presumably your best beer?
Day 2 - If slots still available, open to 1 entry for non AHA member.
Day 3 - If slots still available, open to a max of 2 entries for a member registered on day 1.
Day 4 - If slots still available, open to a max of 2 entries for someone registered on Day 2.

rinse repeat until all slots are filled. I mean, it's a competition to claim the best home brewed beer. Put your best beer out there, don't "buckshot" the comp with 15 entries, hoping one moves on. Take a look at your member base. If half of them register, and why wouldn't you think at least half would, you're filled on day 1. Not, filled in 20 min. Give your membership a chance to enter. As stated in other posts, people are stuck at work with archaic software that wasn't even supported. Or move it to a weekend where the majority won't be at work, or as a last resort, move it to the evening.

I understand that AHA is run by people, and people are human. I get that. But after seeing the fiasco that happened not more than a month ago with the conference registration, they should have been put on notice that something similar was going to happen with the competition registration. You've seen nothing but growth in this organization over the past 10 years, what made you think last years records/statistics were going to stagnate? Personally, I'm glad I did not plan well and did not have any beer that I would consider submitting. Otherwise I'd be just as frustrated as all of you.

 

[osagedr]

...people are human. I get that.

Contender for new signature...

 

[dfess1]

well, you get what i mean.

 

[sweetcell]

Finally an update.

i've just re-paid for my entries, again, and i'm finally marked as "paid".

to recap: i entered 7 beers. 7 x $12 = $84 owed.

so far i've paid $12 + $12 + $84 + $84 = $192.

my take-away: anyone who is showing "unpaid" should go ahead and pay again. it sucks, but it seems to be the only way to ensure entries aren't automatically deleted for "non-payment" (even if payment was made). it's frustrating, it's stupid... but it seems to be the position we're in. if entries are deleted for "non-payment", it'll be a bigger CF trying to prove that you did pay. you might end up at a different judging site, etc.

i hope they can process refunds/credit card cancellations with more ease than was on display during the registration and payment process...

i do feel for the organizers. they've been working for a long time to prepare for this competition. yesterday must have been a heart-breaker. they're volunteers, to boot.

 

[Barnesie]

What would be so wrong in day 1 only being available to paid AHA members, and you only get to submit 1 beer, presumably your best beer?
Day 2 - If slots still available, open to 1 entry for non AHA member.
Day 3 - If slots still available, open to a max of 2 entries for a member registered on day 1.
Day 4 - If slots still available, open to a max of 2 entries for someone registered on Day 2.

I'll take this one step further, why bother opening it to non-members at all? Wouldn't you want to drive membership rolls up either way? This would give those people sitting on the fence one more reason to join while naturally and fairly limiting a contest with insane demand.

I spent two hours trying to register five beers. Three went through with much struggling and the last two were accepted even though they were numbered in the 830's and 920's.