Newbie, with some wine questions :)

[apothecary]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum. Stumbled upon it while searching for info on winemaking.

I've recently moved to Adelaide, a city in the south of Australia, close to well-known wine regions such as the Barossa. It basically has the same type of climate as California, if that's a helpful reference point for any of you.

So the place we moved into has vines out the back producing an abundance of white grapes, so I figured this the perfect opportunity to have a crack at making my own wine. Most of the threads I read on here seem to be about wine kits, so I thought I'd throw this out there for anyone who might have made wine from scratch.

So far I've picked through them, washed and crushed the grapes, put a little pectinase in the mix. From here I'm going to go with pitching some EC1118 maybe tomorrow after straining off the juice. Then rack after the primary fermentation is done.

Anything critical I'm missing at this point?

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[mredge73]

Make sure you are keeping to good sanitation practices.
Everything that touches the juice now that the grapes have been crushed needs to be sanitized.

If you have campden tablets (potassium metabisulfite) use them now to kill off anything living on the grape skins.
Allow it to work 18-24 hours before pitching yeast.

Do you have a hydrometer/refractomenter? You need to know how sweet your grapes are.
You want your OG to be in the range of 1.08 to 1.11; so you may need to add sugar or dilute with water depending on the must.

You will want to hydrate your EC1118 about an hour or so before use, instructions should be on the packet.

Take good notes and good luck!

 

[apothecary]

Thanks, mr edge, my process was pretty much as you outlined. I used Po metabisulphate in lieu of campden tablets, but I only raised the sugar levels to around 1090. You think this is too low? The yeast has been pitched but it hasn't really started going yet. Guess I could still up the sugar a bit more. What do you think?

 

[mredge73]

1.090 is perfect, the higher you go the more time it needs to mature.
This one should be very drinkable after 6-12 months or so.

 

[Stillraining]

We make wine out of our own grapes as well...great fun and we are getting better. The 2 bottles we brought over to friends last night from our 2015 harvest was eagerly consumed.
One piece of advice is unless you like REALLY dry and tart wine dont use the standard 7 acid level recommended by most kits or references...shoot for something around 4 to 5 and work up from there if its not enough, or you will be back sweetening it for sure. Which in and of itself isnt necessarily bad, but it does change the flavor and not for the better.

 

[apothecary]

I was actually wondering about this. Was considering fermenting dry then back sweetening it, I guess just so I get enough alcohol in my wine. But I have sorbate so could also stop the fermentation when it hits the right level of sweetness, too. You think the flavor is too compromised with backsweetening?

 

[Stillraining]

Acid level has only a very small part with" fermenting dry" Is more a preservative thing for both color and taste, and getting the wine balanced with its natural sweetness and tannin properties...Some areas its illegal to add sugars or water to wine which are for sale so acid is a major player that needs to be understood.
Pitching a good yeast and yeast nutrient of enough quantity will control your fermentation in and of itself. I have never had a wine fail to attenuate due to a lower acid level.
Most home grown grapes are going to give a less naturally sweet and more acidic leaning wine then commercial growers...They pick their grapes down to the hour of measured high sugars and they already know their grapes natural tannin and acid quality's...its quite scientific any more...especially as mention where it is illegal to add sugar such as California. But those slight climatic changes every year even in their vineyards is what makes one years harvest and wine different from another...and balancing that is what still makes wine-making an art as much as a science.
Those grapes in your back yard may be supper high quality, I have no clue...It was just a tip I passed on that I learned making ours, that you should be aware of.

And FWIW that wine that was so eagerly consumed by friends a couple nights ago...it was back-sweetened with grape juice concentrate...but it altered and hid the natural goodness of our grapes and most of that natural flavor was lost... Isn't retaining that flavor the goal of a good winemaker after all?....Just say'in.


Carry on.

 

[mredge73]

Don't try to stop fermentation with sorbate, it will just piss the yeast off.
I don't fully understand how to balance the acid but I believe you are a bit too late to make changes.

Let it ferment down to 1.000 or below and remain stable for a few days before messing with it.
At this point you need to decide on a long term storage solution and if you want to used finings or not.
This is where you cold crash it and drop yeast out of suspension. Rack and degas, add finings and preservatives (sorbate and campden) if you choose to do so.
You can backsweeten after you allow the preservatives to work for a day or so if you choose to. I wouldn't backsweeten a wine like this unless it was awful.
Wine ages better in bulk, if you have a extra keg or carboy that would be ideal to let it sit for 6 months or so to allow the "hotness" to disappear.

 

[Stillraining]

IF you want a sweet wine naturally...then you would start with a calculated high sugar content and choose a yeast that stalls out at a certain Alcohol content, thus leaving you with some un-fermentsd sugars.

 

[apothecary]

Thanks guys, some great suggestions. I'll definitely do as mredge advised and age it in bulk for a while before bottling. I'm a little worried about the acid balancing, but as it's a bit late to change it I'll just cross my fingers. That might work.

 

[Stillraining]

Thanks guys, some great suggestions. I'll definitely do as mredge advised and age it in bulk for a while before bottling. I'm a little worried about the acid balancing, but as it's a bit late to change it I'll just cross my fingers. That might work.

Its nothing to worry about...It's just a tool to be aware of for next time if you dont like your end results this year. And there are ways to correct it post fermentation...read up on it. I just dont like using lots of chemicals.

This is why beer brewing is so much more fun then making wine..you dont have to wait so dang long to find out how your doing.

Another feather in your cap for stalling out your yeast for a sweet wine..You will likely have to start in a normal range of 1.100 to 1.090 for healthy yeast activity ( too much sugar hampers them at first) and then add more sugar during active final fermentation till you reach their stall point and the desired residual FG your targeting ( called a "Stuck Fermentation" on purpose ) Takes some experience with your chosen yeast to get it right.

And +1 to bulk conditioning...I go for at least a year. Racking off the lees from secondary to a third vessel about half way in. (lots of people do it sooner and or more often, I'm lazy) Its pretty well stratified and pretty clear by that point. So very little unwanted's are transferred over.

Making wine is no different then making beer...there are a lot of differing ways to do it.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out. we are truly interested.:rockin:

 

[apothecary]

lots of good info there, cheers. I like the idea of adding more sugar till the yeast can't handle it anymore, that's a neat trick.

Things are ticking along nicely. I initially had a bit of trouble getting the yeast to activate so after 48hrs of no activity I pitched again and this time it went like gangbusters. Been bubbling away for about 5 days now, slowing down a bit now. I'm thinking I'll rack her off the lees tomorrow so that it doesn't develop any unnecessary weird flavors from that. From there I'm guessing it'll be in secondary for a few weeks before my final racking. I'll probably sneak a taste around that point just out of curiosity.

So one thing that does concern me is that my two demijohns are full right now, but after I rack I'm bound to lose some volume. Isn't it a potential problem if the demis have too much of an air gap, exposing the wine to too much oxygen? How do you guys get around that problem?

 

[mredge73]

If the yeast is still active I wouldn't worry about an air gap. Wine yeast are good at scrubbing oxygen.

When storing long term when yeast activity has ceased you don't want any air gap, you want to fill whatever vessel you are using to the top.
You also want to use glass, PET, or SS to minimize O2 intrusion. Oak barrels are commonly used for aging but in this case you do not neutralize the yeast with sulfites or degas until bottle time.
To reduce the gap you can top it off with a cheap commercial version of a similar wine. Use water if that is all you have.

 

[Stillraining]

I have a little story that may help with your concerns, maybe not..

About 2 years ago we were finishing putting up our yearly harvest and had just racked out of primary into secondary. Moving the carboy to our clarifying and aging area in another room I immediately noticed one of the airlocks and bungs was completely! out of the top of the previous years batch. I was sort of miffed and concerned to say the least. I figured "Well that's now a bust year" with a dejected tone.
I have no Idea how long that bung had been out, could have been months or weeks but certainly more then days because we age under a seldom used counter, each carboy warped in a towel to protect them from light, one of my daughters sits at and uses this desk/counter on very rare occasions, and she could have accidentally knocked it out with a knee or a foot of a crossed leg.. she had not been home in several weeks...like 6
I did the next natural thing and tasted it...it was wonderful...I found the bung on the floor next to it and star-saned it up, put it back in place and taped it there.... There was not much head space just the neck area and a tiny bit of the curve but it was exposed to free exchange oxygen for a LONG time. And I didn't bother bottling it up for yet another 4 or 5 months after that.

That wine is one, if not the best wine we have made to date.

On another note, we can leave a half empty bottle of some of our wines sitting on our counter for a couple weeks...I'm hard pressed to taste any flaws from doing so, if anything it brightens and drys it up a bit. I may even actually prefer it that way.

Take away from this what you will.

Carry on.

 

[apothecary]

haha, great story. Maybe my fears will prove to be unfounded.

So I racked it, as the bubbling had slowed, and a hydrometer test showed it has mostly fermented out, down to around 1.000. However, i tasted it.... not good would be a bit of an understatement. I'm hoping that's expected at this point? Is there any way to tell how a wine might improve with time?

 

[Stillraining]

LOL...yes it defiantly will...Patients! Grasshopper. ...... Don't expect much for 6 months, a year really makes a difference..High Tannin wines may take 3 or 4 to come together..

 

[mredge73]

That sucks... What is the problem with it now?
I agree, it should improve.
The yeast and CO2 will give it a sharp or tart taste that can be unpleasant, that will go away quickly as the yeast drops out of solution and the CO2 degases.
If it burns going down like a cheap hooch, that takes 6 months to a year to go away.
Unfortunately time doesn't heal all faults. I don't understand acid and tannin adjustments, I cannot make my blackberry wine taste good no matter what I do.

 

[apothecary]

well it's been a few days since I tasted it, but I guess it could have been a yeasty flavor, and of course a bit harsh. But since this is my first foray into making wine I'm not going to get too despondent if it turns out mediocre. Plus, it might yet be ok with time. I'll persist and let you know.

 

[arthurzhuo]

a great place to study something...

 

[rdavidw]

In order of importance in my humble opinion:
1. Sanitation - wine is a little more robust then beer here but its still #1
2. Ph balance - with wine kits this is already done. Its the hardest part of going from grapes.
3. Gravity levels - Largely speaks to the taste you are going after
4. Temps - more important at the start
5. Additives - oak, sawdust, grapeskins and so on.
6. Agents -Bentonite, Chitosan clarifier and so on.
7. Yeast selection - seems to be a smaller part of the overall end result then beer.
8. Degassing Process - Too much and you get oxidation, too little and you get carbonated wine (not good)
9. Filtering - I do this to degass as much as for clarifying.
10. Maybe this should be #1, especially if you are going pro: Awesome labels!

For the very basics check out:http://www.winexpert.com/pdfs/Limited%20Edition2015_Grapeskins_PRESS.pdf

Don't take yourself or your wine too seriously and have fun!