newb question about outlets

[gmtech825]

basically i need to know how i can wire the pid's and dpdt contacts without a neutral wire. should i run a separate 110v feed to the controller or can i put both hot wires to it. can i run just a neutral wire from one of the nearby 110outlets?


anyone?

thanks

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Odds are your laundry outlet is Hot A, Hot B, and a Ground/Neutral - you'd have to verify if the neutral and ground are bonded in your panel, and try to figure out what side your dryer plug terminates to. More often than not, the dryer is running it as a neutral to help power some sort of 120v display on the control panel.

You can run a 240v setup all day long off this, but I wouldn't recommend trying to run a 240v/120v combined panel, as then you'd be using the ground/neutral conducto as both a ground AND a neutral. If you want to run both voltages, you'll have to run a dedicated ground to be safe. I'd also verify that it was actually a 50a supply and breaker, seems high for a dryer.

Like I said, you won't be able to safely derive 120v off this current setup, which is what people with a 4 wire setup do - Hot A / Hot B / Neutral / Ground - the neutral allows them to get 120v when combined with one of the hot legs.

Note - You will need to figure out a way to add a GFCI breaker or outlet or isolator of some sort in this setup to provide you a level of safety. Another reason to have the dedicated ground. There are some drawings on this board somewhere that P-J provided that show how to basically use a GFCI spa panel to go form 3 wire to 4 wire.

-Kevin

 

[gmtech825]

i have been looking to build something similar to the panel from theelectricbrewery.com only without all the bells and whistles. it probably won't even have pump outlets on it for now. it also appears that the dryer is on a 30 amp circuit.

i really wish the fuse panel was just in the basement and not surrounded by drywall!!!

ETA thank you kevin

 

[gmtech825]

this is what i have downstairs- one is for the electric hot water heater, the other is for the well pump. both run off a three wire system. i really dont need to run any pumps yet, will this work?

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

In your first photo, it's hard to tell, and I'm assuming that "down" is the load side, but it looks like they've already got the ground and neutral bonded there, and only heading back to the main panel as a single wire. I'm no electrician, but my understanding from this board is that used to be allowed, but isn't really anymore.

That being said, I can't really tell anything else from these photos without knowing voltages, or what wires go to where. It does look like your second photo is using the wrong wiring convention, as I believe Black and Red should be the color for hot wires, White is the color for neutral.

I'm sure someone else with more smarts will chime in to guide you.
-Kevin

 

[danb35]

It does look like your second photo is using the wrong wiring convention, as I believe Black and Red should be the color for hot wires, White is the color for neutral.

This is wrong, but it's very common. When wiring a 240-volt circuit, you use 2-conductor (plus ground) Romex, and the wire colors in 2-wire are black and white. What you're supposed to do in that case is flag both ends of the white wire with black or red tape to mark them as being hot, but it seems that's very rare.

 

[gmtech825]

This is wrong, but it's very common. When wiring a 240-volt circuit, you use 2-conductor (plus ground) Romex, and the wire colors in 2-wire are black and white. What you're supposed to do in that case is flag both ends of the white wire with black or red tape to mark them as being hot, but it seems that's very rare.

any help on wiring 2 elements with pid's with 3 wires would be greatly appreciated

 

[gmtech825]

anyone?