New brew, advice on sweetening and carbonation please

[Chalkyt]

There has been a lot of discussion about sweetening, carbonation etc lately, so here is my situation. I am keen to get some advice on which way to go having had some poor results in the past from leaving the cider on the lees for too long and not adding sugar for back carbonation.

As outlined in an earlier post, I have two 5 litre (one gallon) batches. Both from juiced fresh apples and allowed to sit for a day to let the pulp etc settle out. They had no added sugar (starting SG was 1.060 and 1.070) and went through primary fermentation quickly (dropped to 1.000 in six days) using Safcider yeast as recommended by the local brew shop (well 200km away in Canberra is “local” to us). The batches were stored for fermentation in a cupboard that houses the hot water system. The cupboard temperature is a fairly constant 70-72 degrees F (20-22 degrees C.

Both batches have now been racked into secondary and have cleared with only a small amount of sediment (around 1/8 -3/16 inch) settling in the bottom of the carboys to date. They have been sitting back in the cupboard for 10 days. I do have the option of moving them to our produce cool store which is 60-64 degrees F (15-18 degrees C)
.
The plan was (is) to bottle in about another three weeks (the end of May, which is the start of Winter) although some websites suggest it is worthwhile doing a tertiary racking for several months before bottling.

Bottling and back sweetening appears to be yet another can of worms. It seems that Stevia or Xylitol are the choices for sweetening if I want fizzy cider. The plan was to carbonate by adding a teaspoon of sugar to each 500ml (1 pint) bottle. A test using just water and sugar shows that this results in SG of 1.005 then adding a sprinkle of yeast and bottling gives a nice fizz after a couple of weeks.

However some recent posts have suggested adding the sugar to the carboys and mixing it into the brew before bottling. I also have the option of adding fresh juice plus sugar to achieve the same result.

When it is all over I plan to cooktop pasteurise the bottles.

So after all the verbiage and waffle, I would welcome opinions on…

- Yeast. I used Safcider but for the future I also have some EC1118 and it looks as though Nottingham is popular.

- Fermenting temperature (warmer or cooler)

- Tertiary racking (some web sites just suggest bottling as soon as fermenting is done)

- What to use for back-sweetening if I also want a fizzy brew

- Adding sugar for carbonation (white sugar, brown sugar, juice?) to bottles or to the brew

Thanks for your patience and advice. This forum is the best source of practical wisdom I have come across.

Cheers!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Forgive my American English..

I ferment to around 1.001 and Red Star Premier Cuvee dry yeast has given me great results (nice apple flavor, quick fermentation, some residual sweetness), although I ferment around 65F for about 4 weeks. This yeast has a very large preferred temperature range.

The preferred temperature will depend on the yeast strain you are using. On the cooler side of the range will allow you to more easily monitor the SG since it should ferment a bit slower.... and may produce less fusel alcohols, requiring less aging.

I have never racked to secondary. The cider is clear and tastes great after about a month. Using a secondary won't hurt but it isn't generally necessary.

For a sweet sparking cider you have 3 good options:
1. Stop fermentation early (cold crash and/or add preservatives), and keg carbonate.
2. Ferment keeping a close eye on the SG. Bottle when SG is a couple points above your desired FG. Bottle carbonate, and pasteurize (see bottle pasteurization thread).
3. Ferment dry, sweeten with non-fermentable sugar (like Stevia) and bottle carbonate as normal.

The type of priming sugar doesn't matter much in my experience and based on other sources. I have used both honey and corn sugar... The corn sugar is best for my uses. Turbinado is a great choice for ciders as well.
Personally I would not use juice for bottle priming because calculating the sugar content is a bit more difficult and it also dilutes your finished cider more than just adding sugar.
Do not add sugar to the fermenter. It will be impossible to mix. Add it either to your bottling bucket (recommended) or directly to the bottles (e.g. carbonation drops like Fermenter's Favorites® Fizz Drops).
Adding yeast at bottling isn't generally necessary either since there will be enough still alive even after taking it off the yeast cake. However it shouldn't hurt and may produce faster results.

HTH. Cheers!

 

[madscientist451]

So after all the verbiage and waffle, I would welcome opinions on…

- Yeast. I used Safcider but for the future I also have some EC1118 and it looks as though Nottingham is popular.

- Fermenting temperature (warmer or cooler)

- Tertiary racking (some web sites just suggest bottling as soon as fermenting is done)

- What to use for back-sweetening if I also want a fizzy brew

- Adding sugar for carbonation (white sugar, brown sugar, juice?) to bottles or to the brew

Thanks for your patience and advice. This forum is the best source of practical wisdom I have come across.

Cheers!

For Questions one and two:
How does the cider taste? Is there a yeast character? Any Sulfur notes?
I try to ferment my ciders in the low 60's, maybe in the high 50's.
That's my basement temperature in the late fall and it seems to work for me. Higher ferment temps seem to produce yeast notes that I don't like, but everyone's tastes are different and the apples you are using will provide different results compared to what I have here.
I've tried Nottingham in cider, but it produced a yeasty, sulfur taste I found undrinkable.
I've used WL-002 in cider, and it leaves a slight residual sweetness.
Another good yeast is Brewer's Best Cider House Select. You can re-pitch your cider yeast over and over, I usually run 5-6 batches from the same yeast.
Try different yeast at different fermentation temperatures and see what suits your taste.

Question #3, Racking. I find one racking is enough and then bottling.
But I have lots of cider and let it bulk age for 6+ months. The big issue with cider is headspace in the storage vessel.

Backsweetening and Carbonation:

Use an on line priming sugar calculator like this one:

www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/

Which sugar you use doesn't matter that much, but the process does matter. Using a scale to measure out the precise amount of sugar for the batch makes a difference. I boil some water in a small pan then add the sugar to that to make sure its dissolved/sanitized. I'll let it cool and then add that to my batch to be primed.
Your bottles and any funnels or siphoning equipment need to be sanitized with star-san or something similar.

There are several unfermentable sweeteners including splenda and stevia.
Do some taste tests with your cider, again everyone has different tastes, so experiment and see what you like.



I backsweeten with frozen apple juice concentrate, about 1/2 a can or 375 ml of concentrate sweetens a 1.5 L bottle of cider and adds some apple flavor. I'll mix up a 1.5 L batch and then keep that in the fridge 'till its gone, which usually isn't very long.

 

[Chalkyt]

Thanks for the replies. I took some small samples and at this stage there is a slightly yeasty taste but not at all unpleasant. However adding a bit of sugar to the samples masked the yeasty taste and improved the overall flavour. Good signs so far.

Re the bottling bucket. In the past I had just siphoned straight from the carboy (trying not to suck up any sediment). I can see how adding sugar to the carboy and swirling would kick up a bit of muck. So is there any issue with exposure to oxygen if I rack into a bottling bucket, add the sugar and stir to say 1.005, then bottle? I hadn't thought about a bottling bucket before. There does seem to be a bit of a concern among "experts" regarding too much exposure to oxygen before bottling.

BTW the carboys have a bit of head space due to racking losses (about 5" below the airlock cork) which I have squirted with winesaver argon. Is it worth topping up with apple juice?

Today we filled a wheelbarrow with apples that fell in last night's wind. I might use my new found knowledge to make a small batch of single variety red delicious cider using EC1118, fermenting in the cold store then cold crashing at 5% ABV and see how that goes for a light summer cider. This is the last of the apples as they are falling all the time and the trees are starting to look silly with not many leaves but lots of apples.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Is it worth topping up with apple juice?

Nope!

Oxidation only becomes an issue if aging for an extended period (years?). Most sources will say to minimize splashing during racking and use a bottling wand for the same reason. Keep the bottles cool once they are done carbonating and you will be fine regardless.

+1 for using a priming sugar calculator. Personally I'd suggest anywhere from 2 to 3 volumes of CO2 depending on how much you like bubbles. Otherwise your carbonation level may be unpredictable, difficult to reproduce, and increases risk of "bottle bombs".

From my understanding red delicious as a single variety won't make the best cider, but it still might be enjoyable -- give it a try! Since red delicious apples are not tart, you might consider picking up some malic acid and adjust to taste before bottling; if you have a pH meter target 3.3-3.8 based on your preference before fermentation (this will help control bacteria during fermentation).

 

[Drewed]

...I might use my new found knowledge to make a small batch of single variety red delicious cider using EC1118, fermenting in the cold store then cold crashing at 5% ABV and see how that goes for a light summer cider. This is the last of the apples as they are falling all the time and the trees are starting to look silly with not many leaves but lots of apples.

I say go for it, but don't expect too much.
1. Red delicious might be red, but they are not delicious, and makes a crappy cider. Actually most signal apple ciders are pretty bad. It kind of like listening to Beethoven, but only played on one instrument. Sure, you can hear it, but it's not as good as a full orchestra.
2. 1118 is a hammer. It will smash through that cider wicked fast and blow all the flavor out of it.
3. 1118 will laugh at your attempt to cold crash and keep right on fermenting. So keep close eye on it.

 

[Maylar]

EC1118 makes great cider IF you ferment in the low 50°F range.

 

[Drewed]

EC1118 makes great cider IF you ferment in the low 50°F range.

Yeah, but at that point why not go with an ale yeast? You can drive a tack with a sledge hammer....

Nottingham is very popular, and I've been haveing great results with Abby and Monistary yeasts. Belgium wheat yeasts have also worked well for me.

 

[Maylar]

Yeah, but at that point why not go with an ale yeast? You can drive a tack with a sledge hammer....

Nottingham is very popular, and I've been haveing great results with Abby and Monistary yeasts. Belgium wheat yeasts have also worked well for me.

It's not a sledge hammer when it's cold. A lot of the craft cider guys use EC-1118 at 50°F because it's very clean and neutral and has low nutrient requirements. This is the proverbial "low and slow" cider method that takes months to complete. I don't have temp control, so I can't do that. Maybe some day.

I'm an S-04 guy. It works well in the temp range I can achieve in the fall. Nottingham is good if you keep it below 65F.

 

[Chalkyt]

Thanks for all the information. It seems that the yeasty flavours that I have been getting might be because I have done the primary fermenting at around 20 degrees C (70F). Somewhere on Google "someone" recommeded this and I have followed it ever since. I was a bit bothered that this year's batches bottomed out to 1.000 from 1.070 so quickly (only about 6 days). Intuitively, slow seems to be better.

We do have an outside cold store for keeping fresh produce, SWMBO's jams amd pickles etc (and of course, wine). In summer we try to keep this below 65 with a small air conditioner since outside temperatures can get up to 100 F. This time of the year (Autumn/Fall) it stays in the range 50-60 (outside temperature this morning was 50 F and will get down below 32 in winter).

So while we still have fresh apples, I will try another couple of batches using SAFCIDER and EC1118 (because I have them) with fermentation in the cool store. I don't see SAFCIDER mentioned on the forum. Is it used over there? I am only using it because the brew shop recommended it. Opinions seem to be split over Nottingham, so the more I find out, the more confusing it gets!

I wasn't aware that different yeasts and fermenting temperature could make so much difference. I will just have to keep on making and drinking.

BTW the batches that I first wrote about have cleared up very nicely with a bit of time. I lost some volume after the first racking because of the amount of settled pulp and lees, so it is sitting with a burst of Argon in the headspace.
Cheers!

 

[Drewed]

Most, if not all, or your yeast packages should have "optimal" fermenting temps listed on the package, or you should be able to google them easily. For ciders you want to try to stay on the low end of that range.

I don't have temp control on my brewing "rig." So I either ferment in the basement, or the first floor depending on the season. I try to go as cool as possible, with out having it carp out on me.

 

[koenigwi]

... with out having it carp out on me.

Ha! I know it's a typo, but that's a funny mental picture.

 

[Drewed]

Lol. Yeah, I don't want my cider becoming a big ugly fish!