NEIPA: where'd I go wrong?

[HobbitBeer]

I recently brewed a NEIPA recently, and rather than being the juicy hoppy sweet elixir of life that I was hoping for, I'm confronted and confounded by something that seems to just be lacking on all fronts. This is my first time with huge whirlpool additions, and based on everything I read, I thought I'd have a killer beer.

I used distilled water and treated to get 1:1 chloride/sulfate @ 150ppm. Mashed at 151 for 60, hit expected gravity, boiled for 60 minutes, whirlpooled in two stages: 1.25oz @ 175-176 (cooled slightly under target) for 10 minutes, and then 4.75oz @ 160ish for 45 minutes with the same hops. Pitched Imperial's POG Kveik at 90, and warmed up to 95 over two days. Hit terminal gravity on day four, then let it drop down to 65. After 24hrs, added 6oz dry hop charge of same hops / ratio, dry hopped for slightly under three days, and then close transferred into a keg I had filled with star-san and purged with CO2. Purged headspace x4 (smelled incredible). Crashed at 38 for two days, then burst carbonated at 38 degrees / 30 PSI for 24hrs, purged (still smelled incredible), set to serving pressure. It's been a week conditioning in the keg, and upon serving a small sampler: I get zero citrus or tropical flavors. It's bitter, it's pale, wonderfully soft mouthfeel - it has all of the characteristics I'd normally associate with an awesome NEIPA... aside from the flavor. Here's the recipe:

10 lbs	Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)	Grain	4
2 lbs	Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM)	Grain	5
1 lbs 4.00 oz	Pale Ale, Golden Promise®™ (Simpsons) (2.5 SRM)	Grain	6
0.50	Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10 min)	Misc	7
2.50 oz	Citra [12.0%] - Steep 45 min (160)	Hops	8
0.75 oz	Azacca [15.0%] - Steep 45 min (160)	Hops	9
0.75 oz	Galaxy [14.0%] - Steep 45 min (160)	Hops	10
0.75 oz	Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.2%] - Steep 45 min (160)	Hops	11
0.50 oz	Citra [12.0%] - Steep 10 min (177)	Hops	12
0.25 oz	Azacca [15.0%] - Steep 10 min (177)	Hops	13
0.25 oz	Galaxy [14.0%] - Steep 10 min (177)	Hops	14
0.25 oz	Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.2%] - Steep 10 min (177)	Hops	15
1.0 pkgs	POG (Imperial Yeast #A37)	Yeast	16
3.00 oz	Citra [12.0%] - Dry Hop 3 days	Hops	17
1.00 oz	Azacca [15.0%] - Dry Hop 3 days	Hops	18
1.00 oz	Galaxy [14.0%] - Dry Hop 3 days	Hops	19
1.00 oz	Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.2%] - Dry Hop 3 days	Hops	20

Where'd I go wrong? Should I just give it time? Toss it and start afresh?

 

[khannon]

Hmmm... can you post a pic?
Recipe looks good(I'm assuming ~5Gal/21l?)
I don't have much xp with A37
A few questions..
What are the # in ()? is that temp(in F)? Is this a whirlpool?

 

[doug293cz]

Can you post a picture of a pint?

Brew on

 

[JoeMamasIPA]

Kveik and didn't crash yeast before DH

 

[HobbitBeer]

A few questions..
What are the # in ()? is that temp(in F)? Is this a whirlpool?

The numbers are indeed temp in fahrenheit! I'll post a pour shortly.

Can you post a picture of a pint?

Brew on

Will do!

Kveik and didn't crash yeast before DH

Is Kveik an intrinsic problem? I've brewed with Loki, Kveiking, and POG previously with good results. You're correct that I didn't crash before DH - I was worried about O2 ingress, and I waited until fermentation was completely over before adding DH so that aromatics wouldn't be blown off...

 

[HobbitBeer]

Not much outside light, but it's a nice pale orange/gold with an incredibly fluffy head.

 

[day_trippr]

For the style that's a lovely pour
Sad it doesn't pack the expected character. I can't see any glaring issues in your process, but I've never used any kveik strains so I'm zero help there.
Hopefully someone spots something and your next batch will meet expectations!

Cheers!

 

[doug293cz]

Not much outside light, but it's a nice pale orange/gold with an incredibly fluffy head.

Nothing visually amiss with this beer. Often color shifts (darkening) of NEIPA's are one of the first indications of oxidation damage, but don't see that here.

Brew on

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Hit terminal gravity on day four, added 6oz dry hop charge of same hops / ratio, dry hopped for slightly under three days, and then close transferred into a keg I had filled with star-san and emptied with CO2.

So, after you hit terminal at 95 degrees, you dry hopped at 95 degrees? Ive never used POG so not sure how well it floccs out, but if you also transferred to keg at 95 degrees three days after dry hopping, Im thinking that the hop dry hop temps combined with the yeast flocking out (perhaps binding to all the nice hop oils?) when you crashed to 38 was the issue here. Ive used Voss kviek a few times and hornidal once. Both times, after hitting terminal at 90ish degrees, Ive always soft crashed first then dry hopped at 60ish. Also - since the kvieks in general have a lot of esters, Im wondering if they overpowered everything you added. Just some thoughts. The beer looks pretty good in the pic so don't think oxidation is the issue, but from what Ive read - aroma and flavor go first, followed by the color change.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Also curious that you stated "its bitter" yet didn't add boil hops and only whirlpool hops. What did the recipe state your IBUs to be? if they are low yet you perceive relatively more bitterness than the IBUs indicate, Im wondering what else is contributing to that bitterness. Were you just stating that it has appropriate bitterness or too much?

 

[HobbitBeer]

So, after you hit terminal at 95 degrees, you dry hopped at 95 degrees? Ive never used POG so not sure how well it floccs out, but if you also transferred to keg at 95 degrees three days after dry hopping, Im thinking that the hop dry hop temps combined with the yeast flocking out (perhaps binding to all the nice hop oils?) when you crashed to 38 was the issue here. Ive used Voss kviek a few times and hornidal once. Both times, after hitting terminal at 90ish degrees, Ive always soft crashed first then dry hopped at 60ish. Also - since the kvieks in general have a lot of esters, Im wondering if they overpowered everything you added. Just some thoughts. The beer looks pretty good in the pic so don't think oxidation is the issue, but from what Ive read - aroma and flavor go first, followed by the color change.

Sorry, I hit terminal gravity on day four @95f, and let it drop to 65. I dry hopped for a little under 3 days, and then kegged.

The bitterness is a bit much upfront. Beersmith says it'll be ~50-60 IBU's, which seems right, aside from the flavor.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

OK, so given I have zero experience with POG, Im still wondering if this yeast esters just dominated your hops. I like voss better than hornidal myself because hornidal totally overpowered everything with its esters. Voss was still strong but still a lot cleaner with some nice orange compared to hornidal. Either way - Kviek esters can be overpowering imo when using at high temps and/or under pitching.

 

[superiorsat]

I recently brewed a NEIPA recently, and rather than being the juicy hoppy sweet elixir of life that I was hoping for, I'm confronted and confounded by something that seems to just be lacking on all fronts. This is my first time with huge whirlpool additions, and based on everything I read, I thought I'd have a killer beer.

I used distilled water and treated to get 1:1 chloride/sulfate @ 150ppm. Mashed at 151 for 60, hit expected gravity, boiled for 60 minutes, whirlpooled in two stages: 1.25oz @ 175-176 (cooled slightly under target) for 10 minutes, and then 4.75oz @ 160ish for 45 minutes with the same hops. Pitched Imperial's POG Kveik at 90, and warmed up to 95 over two days. Hit terminal gravity on day four, then let it drop down to 65. After 24hrs, added 6oz dry hop charge of same hops / ratio, dry hopped for slightly under three days, and then close transferred into a keg I had filled with star-san and purged with CO2. Purged headspace x4 (smelled incredible). Crashed at 38 for two days, then burst carbonated at 38 degrees / 30 PSI for 24hrs, purged (still smelled incredible), set to serving pressure. It's been a week conditioning in the keg, and upon serving a small sampler: I get zero citrus or tropical flavors. It's bitter, it's pale, wonderfully soft mouthfeel - it has all of the characteristics I'd normally associate with an awesome NEIPA... aside from the flavor. Here's the recipe:

10 lbs	Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)	Grain	4
2 lbs	Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM)	Grain	5
1 lbs 4.00 oz	Pale Ale, Golden Promise®™ (Simpsons) (2.5 SRM)	Grain	6
0.50	Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10 min)	Misc	7
2.50 oz	Citra [12.0%] - Steep 45 min (160)	Hops	8
0.75 oz	Azacca [15.0%] - Steep 45 min (160)	Hops	9
0.75 oz	Galaxy [14.0%] - Steep 45 min (160)	Hops	10
0.75 oz	Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.2%] - Steep 45 min (160)	Hops	11
0.50 oz	Citra [12.0%] - Steep 10 min (177)	Hops	12
0.25 oz	Azacca [15.0%] - Steep 10 min (177)	Hops	13
0.25 oz	Galaxy [14.0%] - Steep 10 min (177)	Hops	14
0.25 oz	Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.2%] - Steep 10 min (177)	Hops	15
1.0 pkgs	POG (Imperial Yeast #A37)	Yeast	16
3.00 oz	Citra [12.0%] - Dry Hop 3 days	Hops	17
1.00 oz	Azacca [15.0%] - Dry Hop 3 days	Hops	18
1.00 oz	Galaxy [14.0%] - Dry Hop 3 days	Hops	19
1.00 oz	Mosaic (HBC 369) [12.2%] - Dry Hop 3 days	Hops	20

Where'd I go wrong? Should I just give it time? Toss it and start afresh?

Your basically at one ounce per gallon for the dry hop which for me would probably seem a little lack luster. Maybe try to get in the 1.5 ounce per gallon range The bitter you are referring to is Galaxy coming through and I stopped using it just for that reason. Give it some time, you will have something to drink while waiting for your next batch to get ready.

 

[Beenym88]

How long did you wait before trying it? My NEIPA I just brewed had a little hop burn after 3 or 4 days cold it went away and became a very good beer. My grain bill was similar to yours and I felt for a NEIPA it was missing some sweetness. My next batch I’m going to add a tiny but of honey malt for sweetness and orange color.

 

[HobbitBeer]

OK, so given I have zero experience with POG, Im still wondering if this yeast esters just dominated your hops. I like voss better than hornidal myself because hornidal totally overpowered everything with its esters. Voss was still strong but still a lot cleaner with some nice orange compared to hornidal. Either way - Kviek esters can be overpowering imo when using at high temps and/or under pitching.

I've used POG several times before with good results, and the only difference this time around is being able to hold my fermentation temp. Even if it was the esters, should be fruity, but who knows - definitely not me

I've also used Conan a few times, and 9/10 it's great, every once in a while I get a dud (or something goes awry and I don't get the awesome fruitiness I've expected - maybe it's that).

Your basically at one ounce per gallon for the dry hop which for me would probably seem a little lack luster. Maybe try to get in the 1.5 ounce per gallon range The bitter you are referring to is Galaxy coming through and I stopped using it just for that reason. Give it some time, you will have something to drink while waiting for your next batch to get ready.

I've been trying to be a little more economical with hops, and reading Shellhammers Dry Hop Saturation paper lead me to believe more than about 1oz/gal was wasteful (I think it's 1.1oz/gal), but there's no singular silver bullet here. I love how the beer turned out in appearance/mouthfeel, but maybe next brew day (Saturday) I'll come in closer to 1.5oz per gallon and let you know how it turns out.

In terms of Galaxy, it's always been a hop that comes highly recommended, but I've never really been able to pick it out of the crowd. It might be something as simple as "I brewed the beer I brewed, and I dislike it".

How long did you wait before trying it? My NEIPA I just brewed had a little hop burn after 3 or 4 days cold it went away and became a very good beer. My grain bill was similar to yours and I felt for a NEIPA it was missing some sweetness. My next batch I’m going to add a tiny but of honey malt for sweetness and orange color.

I've been taking small samples every other day. It's conditioned for about a week now at 38-40. Honey malt definitely adds some sweetness as a backbone. I had been using 1/4 - 1/2lb for my Hazy's, and I forget why I stopped. Good suggestion!

 

[TBryerton]

People love to talk about how you start to lose efficiency after x amount of hops per gallon, but in reality you’re spending the majority of a day, and already spending a decent amount of money on a beer who’s primary focus is hop flavor. So why skimp and try to save a few bucks and end up with a beer you’re not happy with. The way I look at it you’re probably losing the $50+ Plus a full day of work to save $10 worth of hops. 1 oz per gallon is nowhere near the amount of dry hops you need for this style. You‘re probably not going to be happy at 1.5 either. And I’d recommend less focus on WP hops. I’d move all the Galaxy, and probably the Azacca to the DH. I also prefer hops In the boil.

 

[HobbitBeer]

People love to talk about how you start to lose efficiency after x amount of hops per gallon, but in reality you’re spending the majority of a day, and already spending a decent amount of money on a beer who’s primary focus is hop flavor. So why skimp and try to save a few bucks and end up with a beer you’re not happy with. The way I look at it you’re probably losing the $50+ Plus a full day of work to save $10 worth of hops. 1 oz per gallon is nowhere near the amount of dry hops you need for this style. You‘re probably not going to be happy at 1.5 either. And I’d recommend less focus on WP hops. I’d move all the Galaxy, and probably the Azacca to the DH. I also prefer hops In the boil.

It's not so much efficiency as it is more doesn't always equal better. In terms of oz/gal, there's a thread with over a million views and 300+ pages (American IPA - "Northeast" style IPA) that seems to have folks pretty happy at 6oz/5g. I generally like hops in the boil as well

 

[YeastFeast]

@TBryerton @HobbitBeer Why do you like hops in the boil for a Hazy? Are you saying you like some bitterness in your Hazys or does that add something more to the beer that I'm not aware of. I've always avoided all hops in the boil for Hazy IPAs but I'm relatively new at brewing them.
Thanks.

 

[TBryerton]

All of the top versions of this style far exceed 6oz/5gal. They’re probably closer to triple that. Breweries like Other Half, The Veil, Monkish, etc are not getting that level of flavor w/so few hops. If you don’t believe, here’s OH’s ‘All Together’ hop schedule for 5 gallon batches. This is a far less hop saturated beer than what they typically put out. So if they’re tossing in 10oz in they’re lighter beers, what do you think they’re adding to their more hop saturated beers??

Hop Schedule:
Columbus (or bittering hop of your choice) to 10 ibu @ 60 Min (NEIPA)
or to 50 ibu @ 60 min (WCIPA)
Mosaic 2 oz @ Whirlpool
Cascade 1 oz @ Whirlpool
Simcoe 2 oz @ Dry Hop
Citra 2 oz @ Dry Hop
Mosaic 4 oz @ Dry Hop
Cascade 2 oz @ Dry Hop

As for boil hops, I’m not overly interested in bitterness for this style, but I do think some is necessary. I think adding hops in the boil will give you different flavors and add to the complexity of the beer. For years we enjoyed IPA’s with large bittering additions. Not it seems like we’re terrified of adding 20 / 10 / 5 minute hops in fear of getting any bitterness. Remember, these were ‘flavor’ additions not that long ago. Treehouse is very vocal about adding large amounts of kettle hops. I believe Trillium has moved all of the hops out of the boil for their street series, which use to be some of my favorite beers on earth - now I think they lack any depth and have no interest in drinking them.

 

[YeastFeast]

Now it seems like we’re terrified of adding 20 / 10 / 5 minute hops in fear of getting any bitterness. Remember, these were ‘flavor’ additions not that long ago.

Good point. I may go back and start with a 5 minute addition on my next batch to see where that gets me. I've been avoiding the boil hops altogether.

 

[HobbitBeer]

If you don’t believe, here’s OH’s ‘All Together’ hop schedule for 5 gallon batches. This is a far less hop saturated beer than what they typically put out. So if they’re tossing in 10oz in they’re lighter beers, what do you think they’re adding to their more hop saturated beers??

Not disbelief - it just goes to show that there are more than a couple of ways to skin the proverbial cat. Brewers have different means of eking out hop aroma, flavor, and bitterness, and if there's a single person who says they have the secret, well..

Research suggests that more hops might in fact degrade some of the qualities we're looking to impart, stripping fruity/citrus flavors in exchange for more tea-like or vegetal flavors at a point. I can tell you that there are brewers locally in Sonoma County that have intense hop flavor and aroma with "surprisingly little" in terms of hops - Pliny the Elder comes to mind. It's funny to think that 1lb total in a 5gal batch was considered obscene at one point, and to some it's considered minimal. And just to further your point, the long held tradition was that dry hops only impart aroma and no bitterness, which is obviously not the commonly held belief nowadays.

Appreciate your input, feedback, and perspective

 

[superiorsat]

Thinking a small late 5-ish minute boil addition and decent amount of hops for whirlpool stand( not banger hops but Amarillo for me has really filled this bill nicely (and save high $$$ hops for the dry hop) is pretty standard for some complexity. You pretty much have to have the perfect dry hop/hopping, timing/temp to get a big bang for so little hops ( like 1 ounce per gallon). Use to do a bio-transformation dry hop then a partial crash(55ish) for 2nd dry hop addition, but I feel even though you might get the initial result you want, the minimal hops don't hang on long enough for me.. I'm content now to do a single dry hop addition just at the tail end of fermentation( no problems with Haze loss or lack of aroma or flavor) in the low 60 degree range. I've been well over 2 ounce per gallon dry hop and felt things get a little muddled. 1.5 ounce is my low mark and 2.5 ounce is my max depending on hops used.

 

[TBryerton]

Another example of DH rates. Doing quick math, so could be wrong, but I believe that (99#) equates to 15.3 oz for a 6 gallon batch.

 

[doogie]

My aroma increased greatly when I started to cold crash before dry hopping. I normally drop it to the low 40's Fahrenheit before warming up to the low 60's to dry hop. I now get nice aroma with around 6-8 oz of dry hop.

 

[Brewsit]

It could just be this particular combination of hops from this particular harvest that just isn’t doing it. Hop harvests can vary a lot and as home brewers we don’t exactly get the prime/choice cuts... we get the scraps and sometimes luck out I think.

FWIW, I used a Kveik yeast on my last batch and dry hopped a day after fermentation started and got a killer NEIPA. I also did only 20 min of whirlpool hops besides the dry hop and total hop rate was about 2.5 oz/gallon. If it were my brew, only thing I would change is to increase the hop bill and don’t be afraid to DH early.

 

[jddevinn]

For a NEIPA you should be dry hopping during active fermentation to get biotransformation .

 

[TBryerton]

For a NEIPA you should be dry hopping during active fermentation to get biotransformation .

100% not true.

 

[jddevinn]

Biotransformation is the staple of NEIPA

 

[jddevinn]

https://fermentis.com/en/yeast-to-brew-a-neipa/
Citra-Galaxy NEIPA: Bioconversion | The Mad Fermentationist - Homebrewing Blog

https://surlybrewing.com/clearing-up-the-hazy-origin-of-obscurity-of-purpose/
https://www.alleykatbeer.com/post/hey-chase-tell-us-about-new-england-ipa-s

 

[doogie]

Biotransformation is the staple of NEIPA

You need to do some more recent reading or experiment yourself. There is absolutely no need to waste your $ hops during active fermentation. The aroma and a fair amount of flavor gets blown out the airlock. I haven't done an active fermentation dry hop in over a year and my NEIPAs are hazy and juicy. But you do need to do all you can possibly do to eliminate oxygen ingress after fermentation starts. Biotransformation occurs due to the amount of hop oils present. A heavy whirlpool is enough for the haze and dry hop after a cold crash for aroma, but the haze shouldn't be a goal, just a byproduct of the amount of hops used.

 

[TBryerton]

Biotransformation is the staple of NEIPA

You couldn’t be more wrong. All of the top producers of this style do not DH early in fermentation. One of which is NOT Alley Kat brewing, so that link is irrelevant. Bio transformation and early dry hopping are not the same thing. Of the links you posted, the only one worth reading is from Fermentis and it doesn’t mention adding hops early in the fermentation process. You really need to get a better understanding of this style before you start handing out advice.

 

[Brewsit]

I know you guys took personal offense to the idea of biotransformation, but even a cursory look at the science behind the idea has at least some credibility. Unless you are talking from a purely religious belief type standpoint, in that case opinions are like buttholes...

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp...bestpractices-Biotransformation-digital-1.pdf

 

[TBryerton]

I know you guys took personal offense to the idea of biotransformation, but even a cursory look at the science behind the idea has at least some credibility. Unless you are talking from a purely religious belief type standpoint, in that case opinions are like buttholes...

https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/wp...bestpractices-Biotransformation-digital-1.pdf

I don’t think anyone is arguing against biotransformation. The argument is against dry hopping early in fermentation. The article you link to is in complete agreement to my point.

What people don’t seem to take into account is that you’ll have good hop compounds in your fv from late hops and wp hops. You’ll also still have yeast present when you DH. Any beer, regardless of style, should have a focus on clean healthy fermentation.

 

[HobbitBeer]

I think that dry hopping during high krausen, or prior to hitting terminal gravity is less common now with some of the more popular brewers of this style. As per the BJCP entry for New England IPA, it does suggest hopping during fermentation.

 

[jddevinn]

Biotransfermation of terpenes and thiols are definitely the staple of a NEIPA. This process creates and enhances the citrus and fruit flavor of the beer. Hop oil that is biotransformed can be added during a late whirlpool (<160°F) or by dry hopping during active fermentation. Hop varietal and yeast strain both have an affect on this process.

Oxygen is detrimental to this style. Try to reduce any uptake during dry hopping and cold crashing.

Non-phenolic yeasts that produce high amounts of Beta-citronellol are Cerberus, Hornindal Kveik, Vermont.

Hop variaties that contain large amounts of Terpenes are Bravo, Centennial, Cascade, Chinook and Mosaic. To get the most advantage these are best added as a whirlpool or fermentation dry hop.

The important Thiols all contain sulfur that makes them very flavor active at low concentrations. Hop varieties that contain a lot of thiols include Citra, Mosaic & Amarillo. The thiols are bound by the sulfur and the cysteine β -lyase in the yeast break these bonds. To get the most advantage these are bested added as a late or post fermentation dry hop.

Hobbit, I'd try using Cerberus or Vermont with the same recipe and see what the difference is. Personally I like using Vermont.

 

[HobbitBeer]

Hobbit, I'd try using Cerberus or Vermont with the same recipe and see what the difference is. Personally I like using Vermont.

I definitely plan on it. I made a few hazy's last year around this time with Gigayeasts Vermont, and it was pretty damn good.

Thanks for taking the time with your write-up and advice. I definitely think that will help with the style - kveiks great for a quick turn around, but I do feel like other aspects of it are a bit of a compromise.

I have some Imperial A24 Dry Hop on hand which is a mix of Vermont/Barbarian and their Citrus. You think that'd do the trick, or should I just pick up some Vermont?

 

[jddevinn]

Give it a try, I think it would work fine. Some breweries (TreeHouse is thought to) are using a mix of different style yeasts to get there results.