Need some help/advice- Plate chiller eff issues?

[fartingdog]

Howdy folks, and Help!- I did a search, but didn't find anything directly fitting my issues. I'm going try to try and give as much detail in hopes someone might have advice.

I have a new toy- a Dudadiesel 30 plate chiller, used it the 2nd time yesterday. I figured I needed to start conserving water vs the old IC/whirlpool (and having the landlady freak out watching me shoot all that water into the yard during the rainy season!), but for the love of all that is holy, I seem to use as much, if not more, water trying to get (close to) to pitching temps. I'm no moron (I think&#8230, but I must be doing something wrong - so many folks can get their batches close to groundwater in 10 min or less! I think it took around 20 min to get it it into the fermenter at a decent temp- lowest temp I could get without restricting flow to a mere trickle was 70-72º. W/ my IC whirlpool I could get close to 60º at that time w/ water temps what they are. I know a pre-chiller is an obvious choice, but as I understand, the chiller in general must work a lot better than my case.

Details on my system/process. Current groundwater temp-52º. Brewing an alt, usually try to go into the fermenter low-mid 60's. (so that's 10-14º above groundwater)

I do 12 gal batches and use a March pump. I have a thermometer on both the BK and at the out flow of the chiller. At flameout I start the water and recirc back into the BK to drop the temp, I then play w/ the wort flow restriction to try and get my desired temp out, or more accurately, as low a temp as I can at reasonable flow rate- by my estimate after 10 min (maybe a little less) of recirc, I could only get .75-1 gpm flow without temp out spiking above 72º to the fermenter. Kettle temp at this time is 120º. so the whole cooling/transfer process took at least 20 min- maybe 25.

FWIW, my IC whirlpool would only take that long if I was trying to get just a couple degrees above groundwater.

I have played w/ water flow rate and have had no change in results at 100% flow vs quarter-to-half open on the faucet as well as various wort flow rates.

I have double and triple checked all my flow connections to make sure I have the water going in the same side as wort out.

In theory- Everything should be working right and I should be getting pretty dang cold wort, but I am rather unfamiliar with the plate chiller- never used one before now.

I must be doing something wrong here- any help/advice is appreciated!

Edit: I did see some posts w/ similar issues, but not many answers yet.

 

[Dunerunner]

Slow the rate of flow of wort through the chiller on the discharge side of the plate chiller. Are you pumping directly into your FV (I hope), or re-circulating back to the boil kettle?

Slowig the flow of the hot wort throough the plate chiller will allow more time fffor it to give up heat to the circulating water.

 

[fartingdog]

Slow the rate of flow of wort through the chiller on the discharge side of the plate chiller. Are you pumping direcctly into your FV (I hope), or re-circulating back to the boil kettle?

Slowig the flow of the hot wort throough the plate chiller will allow more time fffor it to give up heat to the circulating water.

As above- mentioned I do recirc into the BK and then over to the fermenter when I get a good temp out of the chiller. and if I slow the wort down flow any lower, it'd merely be a trickle.

 

[stevehaun]

I would have to say that something is wrong somewhere. I have a therminator. My wellwater is about 55F. I pump directly form boil kettle to fermenter. Chilling the wort to 60F, I can move 35 gallons of wort to the fermenters in about 30 min. Are you certain that you have it set up for wort in/water out?

 

[Bobby_M]

I think there's a really good chance that you are NOT counterflowing the two liquids through the chiller. You really need the hot wort to hit the coolant on it's way out, that way as the wort cools through the plates, it hits the coldest incoming water just before the wort exits. In other words, it maintains a decent delta all the way to the end.

With groundwater at 52F, you should be able to run the coolant in at about half capacity and pump the wort nearly full bore directly to the fermenter and have it be at 68F. It shouldn't take you more than 5-7 minutes to run all 10 gallons through.

One other thought, though a long shot, is that you have some trapped air in the chiller. While it's running, tilt it vertical both ways for a few seconds.

 

[samc]

You are not alone! I have the same issues and have tried lots of different things. One time I did inadvertently hook up the wort & water flowing in the same direction and it's obvious because you will struggle to break 100F. Otherwise I can get the wort down to +10F from groundwater but at a very slow flow, using lots of water and taking a long time. I've adjusted the flow of both water and wort in a lot of different combos.

What I honestly think is that some of these chillers are not very well made and have restrictions inside making it harder for the wort/water to take full advantage of the surface area, or I am just a total chilling fool. One of these days I'm going to have to cut it open for an autopsy.

Someone posted on another thread that he was doing 6 gallons in 4 minutes and I nearly cried.

 

[fartingdog]

I think there's a really good chance that you are NOT counterflowing the two liquids through the chiller. You really need the hot wort to hit the coolant on it's way out, that way as the wort cools through the plates, it hits the coldest incoming water just before the wort exits. In other words, it maintains a decent delta all the way to the end.

Tried to find a pic, but I have it hooked up like this one
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...mp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B003IS7NBK

which is also the same as the diagram on the Duda chiller. but if you go here http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=HX1230 , (click on the 2nd pic- 'heat exchanger dim' - it's a pop up I can't direct link) you'll see the flow is reverse from the first pic.

maybe the 'trapped air' theory, while not entirely likely, holds some key. I have the chiller mounted to the brew stand on it's side- where the wort in/out is at the top and water in/out is on the bottom (like the chill-out pic). Think that could be part of the issue? The Duda folks said it really shouldn't matter, but maybe I need to set this flat vs on it's side.

 

[Dunerunner]

You may have hit on something there. Not lying flat would channel flow through the chiller, I would think.

 

[stevehaun]

Something is not right. If I am chilling an ale, I run my pump wide open and have to cut back the well water to keep the temp at 70F. I can pump 35 gallons of wort for an ale in about 25 minutes. I am limited by my pump not by my chiller.
I ran the wort/water thru my therminator the wrong direction for a couple batches and it still chilled way faster than my old chillzilla. Either you are pumping the wrong direction or you have a defective plate chiller. Have you called dudadiesel?

 

[Layne]

Does anybody pump through the plate chiller and back to the kettle till pitching temp is reached? Then let trub settle before transfering to Fermenter?

 

[fartingdog]

You may have hit on something there. Not lying flat would channel flow through the chiller, I would think.

I decided to do some tests - heating the H2O now and will post back w/ results.

 

[fartingdog]

Here are the results. Test batch size - 8 gal at 210º

Test 1 - I ran everything like a normal brew day, but w/ the plate chiller flat. this seemed to help A LOT. by recirc'ing I got my out temp to 70-72º in 2-3 min (pump throttled half way) and temp didn't seem to go lower. I then noticed something on accident- the out hose started whipping around like a water snake, soaking everything (self included). One piece of the puzzle- I have a spray nozzle on the end I open full to water the yard and plants when I runoff- I took this off and noticed a better drop in temp. So the restriction also seemed to be an issue. So time to do another test.

Test 2 - nozzle now removed and chiller laying flat, I was able to get my chiller out temp to 65º in 3 min at pump half throttle and hose bib 3/4 of the way open. I then started runoff. I watched the chiller out temp while I played w/ the hose flow and I could get to maybe 1/4-1/3 of the way open (we have really great water pressure)and maintain the 65º, (so I could have used less water I think). The runoff took 7 min for the 8 gal- so 10 min total. I used about 50gal of water to chill this.

so thanks for the tips - much better results now, and I may find other tweaks to get it better as time goes on, but am more than happy to take any other advice.

 

[fartingdog]

Either you are pumping the wrong direction or you have a defective plate chiller. Have you called dudadiesel?

I may try to switch the flow direction next time just to see- but per the 'manual', it's flowing the correct way.

 

[samc]

Thanks for the test. Will try mine flat this week and see. Currently baking it in the oven for a cleaning.

Also would be curious to know what others use in terms of total chilling water to cool down a batch.

 

[Henrythe9th]

Does anybody pump through the plate chiller and back to the kettle till pitching temp is reached? Then let trub settle before transfering to Fermenter?

yes I recirc back to the BK for whirl pool about 30 min then hook up the plate chillers, turn on the water (by this time wort is 190-200f ) plate chillers bring the temp down to 60 in 15min (12gal) shut the lid and go to bed, then transfer beer only, leaving all the trub and hops behind in the morning to the carboys, put in fermentation camber to warm the wort back to 64f and pitch that evening.
its usually late when i finish 9 or 10pm, so its overnight for me. but some let it rest for a couple of hours
never had a problem in 20+ batches with this method and i get full carboys of beer and easy yeast harvesting

 

[stlbeer]

One piece of the puzzle- I have a spray nozzle on the end I open full to water the yard and plants when I runoff- I took this off and noticed a better drop in temp. So the restriction also seemed to be an issue. So time to do another test.

Glad to hear you resolved the issue. Also of note is that it really helps the community to solve a problem when we know all of the factors involved. Not knowing that the output of the chilling water was restricted is critical.

 

[samc]

I ran my chiller yesterday. I consider it an expensive paper weight at this point. Ran it flat, also cleaned it first, using Oxyclean, then Line Cleaner and finally an hour in the oven.

Groundwater under 50F, final temp of 10 gallons was 72F. Ran it opposite (counterflow) direction and tried all different flow levels. Water pressure here is about 50 psi at the spigot, don't know what it drops to after the disconnects, etc.

Either it is defective, or I just am making a dumb mistake after 10+ batches with it.

 

[mattd2]

I ran my chiller yesterday. I consider it an expensive paper weight at this point. Ran it flat, also cleaned it first, using Oxyclean, then Line Cleaner and finally an hour in the oven.

When ever I have seen these small (or any) plate heat exchanger used on industrial site they have been positioned upright (hopefully the ASCI drawing below makes sense). Flow going from top to bottom or vice versa.
Try mounting it that way and it might get better flow through the whole chiller.

Mount like this:
||||- in/out
||||
||||
||||
||||
||||-out/in

Not like this:

| in/out | out/in
=======
=======

 

[BrewMoreBeers]

try this: get a bucket, fill it with ice and water, pump it through the water ports in the chiller (i use a cheap pond pump). I can cool 5 gallons to 60 degrees in about 5 minutes with 30 lbs of ice.

You can conserve ice by dumping the first few minutes worth of water and adding more cold tap water to the bucket. The first few minutes of recirculating the cooling water really puts a hurting on the ice.

 

[samc]

I've tried the vertical, horizontal and now flat. Doesn't seem to make much difference.

10 gallons of beer = 60lbs of ice for cooling seems to be a lot of extra effort which I shouldn't need to do according to other users of plate chillers.

At this point if I get it down into the mid 70's and then toss it into the ferm chamber and turn on the a/c, I can cool it down quickly that way. It just seems wrong that I should have to do that. According to my ground water temps I should have been able to cool to 60F with ease yesterday.

Thanks for the input !

 

[BrewMoreBeers]

The ice prevents you from wasting 50 gallons of water.

 

[BigdogMark]

We purchased a Duda Diesel plate chiller and initially had poor results as well. We were gravity feeding through it with it laying on it's side. We did have it set up in a counterflow arrangement, but had very poor cooling performance.

A few brews later we got a second march pump to do boil recirc, etc. We also proceeded to mount everything including the chiller in a vertical arrangement with the cool wort exiting at the top. Our plan was to recirc into the boil kettle cooling the entire keg, but the damn thing worked so well we redirected straight to the fermenter. And that was at full flow with the march pump.

After a lot of drinking and thinking, I decided the problem was trapped air in the plate chiller. If you don't orient to chiller correctly, the wort can short circuit through only a few plates to the output. Obviously the cooling was going to be minimal. Our new arrangement has all the air coming up out of the chiller from the very start. I can't think of any other reason we are seeing such a difference now. Our first few attempts we couldn't cool any faster with the plate chiller than our immersion cooler. In fact the brew bud didn't use the plate a few times because it was a hassle. The last two batches cooled 11 to 12 gallons from a full boil to 70 degrees in under 5 minutes. The groundwater here is typically about 74, but it was cold out and the benefit of the above ground piping lowered it somewhat. It was freaking amazing. Everyone present at the brew session is still talking about it with disbelief.

Don't give up, try a few more things and see if it doesn't work out for you as well.

 

[Bigscience]

Does anybody pump through the plate chiller and back to the kettle till pitching temp is reached? Then let trub settle before transfering to Fermenter?

I tried this, once. It took far longer to cool that one pass into the fermentor.

 

[Ricand]

I'm having this issue with a 40 plate chiller as well. With my 50 degree ground water it really struggled to hold 70 degrees on the output. I use a scrungee on the BK pickup which loads with trub and hops so the output is a trickle anyway. I'll definitely try the vertical alignment with wort in at the bottom to see if it helps.