Need help with a 240v move!

[Schlomo]

All,

Trying to determine what I can do here, but i want to move from my 2, 120v (15a/20a) brewery to a 240v/30a brewery. Im having a hard time getting to a boil in a reasonable time now that its getting a bit colder out.

Thing is, I really want to use my dryer plug which is about 30' away from my garage (If i move my brewery). As of now it would be about 50' of cable and thats just a bit too much.

Anyone know a good wire gauge for a 240v 30a cable run of about 30'? Im thinking 6 gauge...

 

[thekraken]

6 seems like overkill. 10 gauge should do it, shouldn't it?

Edit:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-40-ft-30-Amp-Generator-Power-Cord-PC3040/202216500

 

[beermanpete]

I would use the 6 gauge or at least 8 gauge wire. The ratings on extension cords are intended to prevent fires and related hazards. The total voltage drop across a long cord is not necessarily part of the safety considerations.

 

[itsnotrequired]

for these types of lengths, #10 is fine (assuming it isn't, like, 200 ft from your panelboard to the dryer receptacle). @beermanpete makes a good point about extension cords and watt ratings but up at #10, we're talking about items like generator cords, which have much higher ratings than your typical extension cord (typical the full 30 amps on a #10 cord).

just be aware that you will need a neutral at your dryer receptacle if you want to run 120v loads off the control panel (e.g. pump). cords are available with different plug/receptacle configurations so be sure to match your dryer outlet/brew panel input, unless you want to be cutting the plugs off and replacing them.

 

[thekraken]

https://bethepro.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/extension-cords.pdf

According to that you're looking at a voltage drop of 3.6v w/ a 50' #10 extension cord @ 120v. How does that translate at 240v?

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

6 seems like overkill. 10 gauge should do it, shouldn't it?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004809YBE/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-40-ft-30-Amp-Generator-Power-Cord-PC3040/202216500

RV 30 amp is NOT the same as household 30 amp dryer service. RV 30 amp is only 120v; dryers are 240v. RV cords like the one quoted above have a special plug (code TT-30) on it with only 2 wires (1 hot, 1 neutral, not counting the ground wire). They may technically be able to handle 240v but are NOT rated for it!

A dryer plug can be a NEMA 10-30 (2 hots, no neutral) or NEMA 14-30 (2 hots, 1 neutral) depending on how it was wired originally.

For a 30 amp 240v system, you’ll need 3 (2 hots and 1 neutral) unless you don’t have ANY 120v loads on that circuit.

 

[processhead]

https://bethepro.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/extension-cords.pdf

According to that you're looking at a voltage drop of 3.6v w/ a 50' #10 extension cord @ 120v. How does that translate at 240v?

When you start calculating theoretical voltage drop all the way to the brew kettle, also consider the length/gauge of the wire running from the service panel to the dryer receptacle.
If the installation is per code, the wire will most likely be AWG 10, but the length could be almost anything.

You can certainly run larger conductors for the extension cord, but I wouldn't go smaller than 10s.

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

https://bethepro.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/extension-cords.pdf

According to that you're looking at a voltage drop of 3.6v w/ a 50' #10 extension cord @ 120v. How does that translate at 240v?

Makes no difference whether you're using 240 or 120, the current x resistance is what causes voltage drop. According to that table there's only a 1V difference @20A between the 12 awg and the 10 awg (@50 feet)

As far as functionality, I wouldn't hesitate to run 50 feet of good quality 10awg for the 30 amp controller, keep in mind you'll prolly never be drawing 30 amps anyway. I never turn my big element past 20 amps (no need). Code might not see it that way tho.

 

[thekraken]

RV 30 amp is NOT the same as household 30 amp dryer service. RV 30 amp is only 120v; dryers are 240v. RV cords like the one quoted above have a special plug (code TT-30) on it with only 2 wires (1 hot, 1 neutral, not counting the ground wire). They may technically be able to handle 240v but are NOT rated for it!

A dryer plug can be a NEMA 10-30 (2 hots, no neutral) or NEMA 14-30 (2 hots, 1 neutral) depending on how it was wired originally.

For a 30 amp 240v system, you’ll need 3 (2 hots and 1 neutral) unless you don’t have ANY 120v loads on that circuit.

My mistake, just threw out the first couple hits from Google. The second one is the one you want.

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

For a 30 amp 240v system, you’ll need 3 (2 hots and 1 neutral) unless you don’t have ANY 120v loads on that circuit.

I'm not trying to be snarky, but is it a sin to have a separate cord for 120VAC ? Function-wise, and even safety wise, what's the problem with having 2 power cords (120 and 240) for your controller? Obviously proper grounding, and GFCI is a must.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

I'm not trying to be snarky, but is it a sin to have a separate cord for 120VAC ? Function-wise, and even safety wise, what's the problem with having 2 power cords (120 and 240) for your controller? Obviously proper grounding, and GFCI is a must.

It’s not a sin at all. No different than having your dryer on a 240v circuit and your fridge on a 120v circuit.

The only real downside it it makes wiring up a panel more difficult, since you have two power sources. If you want an e-stop switch that kills all power at once, it’s harder to wire up. You also have to remember to unplug both before working inside the panel.

 

[triethylborane]

I run 50' of 8 gauge extension cords for my 240v welder and pressure washer.

 

[Silentdrinker]

For what you’re doing, 10 gauge copper is going to be fine.

Just pay attention to the voltage at the garage. Multiply that with the amperage to get the wattage. As long as you’re not drawing too many watts, you’ll be ok.

You’ll want to make sure your circuit is protected with a GFCI to avoid death. Using an extension cord outside in the elements can increase your risk for electrocution, so be sure to always visually inspect the cord to make sure there aren’t any cracks or breaks in the shielding.

It is true if you’re going to run 110v from the panel for a pump, you’ll need to be able to split the 220v at the panel and have a neutral plus ground, so it’ll have to be a 10/4 extension cord plus 10/4 to the dryer plug. If you see a 4 prong dryer plug, still verify it’s wired properly.

If you’re garage is wired for 110, then you can plug the pump in there and get away with no neutral. Or you can run another extension cord for 110v power. Then you can use a 10/3 plug and extension cord.

The extension cord probably won’t be cheap.

 

[timman01]

I’m a master electrician. With #10 wire, you can go 83.3’. That includes the length from your panel to your dryer outlet. If you’re going to go further than that, then you need to run #8 wire. However, this is from your panel to your dryer outlet and the cord your going to use. Both have to be #8. The wire running from the panel to the outlet is #10. If you don’t upgrade your wire from the panel to the outlet, there’s no point in running a cord bigger than #10, you’ll still get too much voltage drop. Just keep it under 83.3 total length.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

It’s not a sin at all. No different than having your dryer on a 240v circuit and your fridge on a 120v circuit.

The only real downside it it makes wiring up a panel more difficult, since you have two power sources. If you want an e-stop switch that kills all power at once, it’s harder to wire up. You also have to remember to unplug both before working inside the panel.

Pardon my snarky-ness but ??????!

Not sure what I have been reading??? What 2 power sources? 240v is simply two 120v leads out of phase. There are not two power sources or any extra difficulty wiring a panel. Just take your 120v feed off of one leg of the main feed, after the switch, e-stop or whatever. Doesn't matter which hot lead as "phase" makes no difference in 120V. Making this a whole lot more complicated than it has to be. Any power cable be it an extension cord or a RV plug has a neutral whether it's 120v or 240v, no such thing as a power supply with only 2 hot leads!

 

[Silentdrinker]

Pardon my snarky-ness but ??????!

Not sure what I have been reading??? What 2 power sources? 240v is simply two 120v leads out of phase. There are not two power sources or any extra difficulty wiring a panel. Just take your 120v feed off of one leg of the main feed, after the switch, e-stop or whatever. Doesn't matter which hot lead as "phase" makes no difference in 120V. Making this a whole lot more complicated than it has to be. Any power cable be it an extension cord or a RV plug has a neutral whether it's 120v or 240v, no such thing as a power supply with only 2 hot leads!

I think he means running a separate extension cord for 110v to power just the pump, assuming the 220v has no neutral. The only need for the neutral is to get a 110V circuit, so some 220v appliances like a welder, dryer or AC unit don’t need 110v so it will have two hots and a ground but no neutral.

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

I think he means running a separate extension cord for 110v to power just the pump, assuming the 220v has no neutral. The only need for the neutral is to get a 110V circuit, so some 220v appliances like a welder, dryer or AC unit don’t need 110v so it will have two hots and a ground but no neutral.

Correct, I plug 2 cords in when I get ready to brew. The 240 in my panel is only for the BK. the HLT and RIMS tube run off the separate 120V (20A) circuit. My 240 outlet in the garage has no neutral, so that's the reason.

 

[DavidChop]

You should just go with Mr. Master Electrician's advice above. I broke out Marks Standard Handbook to see if I could dig up some EE #s. Sure enough, there's a little section on wire sizing.

A = 21.6*I*d/e where A is area needed in cir mils. 21.6 accounts for the resistance in copper wire, both ways on a 220 circuit (10.8 on a single leg circuit). I is 30 amps, d from timman01 above at 83.3' and I took e, allowable voltage drop, to be 5V, which keeps us under 3% on a 220. That works out to a needed cross section of ~10800 cir mil. #10 AWG specs at 10380. Given that I hand waved at the voltage drop a little, plus your actual current draw is going to be closer to 25A, 83.3' of #10 looks like solid (and safe) advice. Sparky wins again.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

Correct, I plug 2 cords in when I get ready to brew. The 240 in my panel is only for the BK. the HLT and RIMS tube run off the separate 120V (20A) circuit. My 240 outlet in the garage has no neutral, so that's the reason.

Call it a neutral or a ground, same thing. The BLK wire is hot, in 240v its BLK & Red (usually), the White is the neutral and the bare copper is the ground. Now here is where it gets fun - the bare wire and the White wire connect to the same source in the electrical panel. So unless you are an electrical engineer, it's only semantics.

 

[Silentdrinker]

Call it a neutral or a ground, same thing. The BLK wire is hot, in 240v its BLK & Red (usually), the White is the neutral and the bare copper is the ground. Now here is where it gets fun - the bare wire and the White wire connect to the same source in the electrical panel. So unless you are an electrical engineer, it's only semantics.

The Neutral and Ground are generally connected together at your service panel, not at the device.

The purpose of neutral is for a return path. 220v doesn’t require a return path because the two legs alternate. That means one leg is always acting as the neutral. The ground wire only carries current when there is a fault. Therefore when it’s wired this way, there is no neutral.

Calling it semantics is like saying wheels and feet are the same thing.

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

Call it a neutral or a ground, same thing. The BLK wire is hot, in 240v its BLK & Red (usually), the White is the neutral and the bare copper is the ground. Now here is where it gets fun - the bare wire and the White wire connect to the same source in the electrical panel. So unless you are an electrical engineer, it's only semantics.

Yes, we all know that the Neutral and the ground fasten to the same point in the breaker panel, but...
It's not the same.
Ground is for grounding. It should not be carrying current, if you carry current on the ground, you end up with differences in ground potential throughout your house...and then it's no longer ground.
the Neutral is for carrying current .
...and it makes a big difference to GFCI.

 

[doug293cz]

Call it a neutral or a ground, same thing. The BLK wire is hot, in 240v its BLK & Red (usually), the White is the neutral and the bare copper is the ground. Now here is where it gets fun - the bare wire and the White wire connect to the same source in the electrical panel. So unless you are an electrical engineer, it's only semantics.

Nope. Not the same at all. If you try to spit off any 120V circuits using the ground instead of a neutral, the 240V GFCI will trip every time (unless it is broken.) If you don't know why this is true, then you shouldn't be giving electrical advice.

Brew on

 

[Silentdrinker]

Yes, we all know that the Neutral and the ground fasten to the same point in the breaker panel, but...
It's not the same.
Ground is for grounding. It should not be carrying current, if you carry current on the ground, you end up with differences in ground potential throughout your house...
the Neutral is for carrying current .
...and it makes a big difference to GFCI.

My response was the last one on the other page. So it may have gotten skipped over. But ya, the ground is NOT connected to neutral at the device. Ground is used to carry a load when there is a fault while the neutral is used for a return path for 110v. Neutral isn’t needed for 220v because the two hot legs alternate so one is always acting as the neutral.

 

[itsnotrequired]

I’m a master electrician. With #10 wire, you can go 83.3’. That includes the length from your panel to your dryer outlet. If you’re going to go further than that, then you need to run #8 wire. However, this is from your panel to your dryer outlet and the cord your going to use. Both have to be #8. The wire running from the panel to the outlet is #10. If you don’t upgrade your wire from the panel to the outlet, there’s no point in running a cord bigger than #10, you’ll still get too much voltage drop. Just keep it under 83.3 total length.

no disrespect but where are you getting these numbers from? we are talking 240v, not 120v.

 

[augiedoggy]

so I see all these arguments advocating needing heavier wire than whats needed for 30a and the reality here is this panel will be drawing what 25-26 amps with a 5500w element on full power and 1 pump drawing 2-3 amps? The pids draw like 1/4 amp..
The op can also go with a 4500w element too if he doesnt mind waiting the extra 10 minutes each brew day ... those only draw 17-18 amps..

I realize there no extension cord in my setup but I have a 50ft or so run of 10/3 from my panel to my 30a control box and manage to run a 4500w and 1800w element as well as the panel and 2 dc pumps at the same time and still only draw like 26-27 amps likewise I have no problem running my 5500w bk element... Never once has the breaker popped or their been any problem in 4 years..

 

[itsnotrequired]

a general rule of thumb is that if the circuit length number in feet starts getting close to the voltage number in volts, start to worry about voltage drop and bumping up a conductor size. it is more applicable to three-phase systems than single-phase so for single-phase systems such as in a residence, 75% of the voltage is a good number. so if a 120v circuit, start to consider bumping up a conductor size on a 90 foot circuit. for 240v, should be fine up to 180 feet. even beyond those lengths it more than likely is not an issue but it may be worthwhile to bump up a size. for a resistive load like a heating element, worst case is reduced voltage means reduced heat output means longer heating times. if on a brew panel, lights may be a touch dimmer and pumps may run a bit slower.

 

[timman01]

no disrespect but where are you getting these numbers from? we are talking 240v, not 120v.

Of course we’re talking about 240. Notice the reference to the dryer outlet (always 240). There’s a lot of nice ideas on this thread but there are also calculations to figure out voltage drop and size your wires correctly. I did the calculations and what I shared is not my thoughts or opinions but facts. I’m sure, with a little effort, you can find these calculations and learn these facts for yourself.

 

[thekraken]

Of course we’re talking about 240. Notice the reference to the dryer outlet (always 240). There’s a lot of nice ideas on this thread but there are also calculations to figure out voltage drop and size your wires correctly. I did the calculations and what I shared is not my thoughts or opinions but facts. I’m sure, with a little effort, you can find these calculations and learn these facts for yourself.

ipe:

We're all friends here. I think he was legitimately interested in your actual calculations. You're both electricians, we know both of you know what you're talking about. The forum appreciates all professional input, especially in electrical.

 

[Schlomo]

Thanks for all the awesome input guys. Lets keep it positive

Anywho, i think i'll have to guestimate how far my current run to my dryer is. That, and check the gauge of the wire in there. May just be a bit too far to be safe, as its probably at least 40' to the plug on the wall from my breaker box, which would put me over the 83' mark for 10 gauge wire...

Might just have to wait till i buy my house...

 

[itsnotrequired]

Of course we’re talking about 240. Notice the reference to the dryer outlet (always 240). There’s a lot of nice ideas on this thread but there are also calculations to figure out voltage drop and size your wires correctly. I did the calculations and what I shared is not my thoughts or opinions but facts. I’m sure, with a little effort, you can find these calculations and learn these facts for yourself.

it depends what voltage is desired at the brew panel. this isn't a sensitive, sophisticated piece of equipment that requires a super-tight voltage tolerance. at 83.3 ft with #10 and assuming the full 30 amps required at the utilization equipment, that's a drop of only 5 volts (2%). that is excellent but overkill for this application. at 180 ft, looking at 230v at the panel, total adequate for the equipment served. it starts going downhill from there but even at 200 ft it won't be the end of the world.

and this is to get the full 30 amp circuit capacity at the end of the run. assuming a 'typical' 30 amp brew panel with 5500 watt elements, only 26 amps or so is required at the panel. if the extremely tight 5 volt (2%) drop is desired, now you can run 100' and only drop 5 volts. again, the extreme example, 200+' would not be an issue.

full disclosure, this all assumes 240v at the main electrical panel. if the main panel only has, say, 230v at it then yes, there is going to be issues with voltage at the end of a circuit but man, that would be a pretty crappy service. last i checked mine, it was 248 volt at the main panel. voltage drop is linear so each additional volt at the panel is just that much extra voltage at the end of the circuit.

my point with all this is not to scare folks off with excessive voltage drop constraints. @Schlomo now seems resigned to not installing his system, over fears of exceeding a rather arbitrary 83.3 ft distance. that shouldn't be the case.

@Schlomo, check the voltage at your main panel. if 240v or above, i wouldn't think twice about a 50' #10 generator cord out of your dryer receptacle (assuming the receptacle is 30 amp and wired with #10 from your panel). let us know what it is and we can advise from there.

 

[don_bran321]

I just built my 240v 30A Box. Through my research I have found that you must have a neutral (4 wires, 2 hot, 1 neutral, 1 ground)
You also must have a gfci breaker with the neutral conned to the bar as well.
The gage of wire that you use to carry the voltage isn't so much a problem of voltage drop its a matter of heat!
The longer the run the more heat is going to be created.
Generally, the thicker the wire gage, the more thermal insulation is added to the strand to accommodate the heat. hope this helps!
I would not recommend running 240v 30A through you're dryer recepticle for lack of neutral and gfci. Major fire hazard at that level.

 

[Schlomo]

it depends what voltage is desired at the brew panel. this isn't a sensitive, sophisticated piece of equipment that requires a super-tight voltage tolerance. at 83.3 ft with #10 and assuming the full 30 amps required at the utilization equipment, that's a drop of only 5 volts (2%). that is excellent but overkill for this application. at 180 ft, looking at 230v at the panel, total adequate for the equipment served. it starts going downhill from there but even at 200 ft it won't be the end of the world.

and this is to get the full 30 amp circuit capacity at the end of the run. assuming a 'typical' 30 amp brew panel with 5500 watt elements, only 26 amps or so is required at the panel. if the extremely tight 5 volt (2%) drop is desired, now you can run 100' and only drop 5 volts. again, the extreme example, 200+' would not be an issue.

full disclosure, this all assumes 245v at the main electrical panel. if the main panel only has, say, 230v at it then yes, there is going to be issues with voltage at the end of a circuit but man, that would be a pretty crappy service. last i checked mine, it was 248 volt at the main panel. voltage drop is linear so each additional volt at the panel is just that much extra voltage at the end of the circuit.

my point with all this is not to scare folks off with excessive voltage drop constraints. @Schlomo now seems resigned to not installing his system, over fears of exceeding a rather arbitrary 83.3 ft distance. that shouldn't be the case.

@Schlomo, check the voltage at your main panel. if 240v or above, i wouldn't think twice about a 50' #10 generator cord out of your dryer receptacle (assuming the receptacle is 30 amp and wired with #10 from your panel). let us know what it is and we can advise from there.

Measured 245v at the plug, and yes it is a 4 terminal plug. Only concern I have is my un-familiar-ness with the buildings wiring (Its an apartment) otherwise i'd just throw a new breaker in the box and run 240 right to my brewery.

The other consideration I have is if i can convince my wife i need to spend $1300 bucks on a new 240v brew controller I built my last one but some of the DIY kits are just so convenient now i may just do a cry once approach and spend the money for a turn key controller.

Pretty sure this is the one i'm gonna get.
https://ebrewsupply.com/collections/complete-diy/products/30a-pid-complete-control-panel-kit

:rockin:

 

[thekraken]

Don't forget about your GFCI.

 

[don_bran321]

Sounds like u are good to go man.
If you don't have a problem swapping the Element and Thermocouple cables this box will save u a ton! and it works great
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=58_59&products_id=678

 

[itsnotrequired]

Measured 243v at the plug, and yes it is a 4 terminal plug. Only concern I have is my un-familiar-ness with the buildings wiring (Its an apartment) otherwise i'd just throw a new breaker in the box and run 240 right to my brewery.

The other consideration I have is if i can convince my wife i need to spend $1300 bucks on a new 240v brew controller I built my last one but some of the DIY kits are just so convenient now i may just do a cry once approach and spend the money for a turn key controller.

Pretty sure this is the one i'm gonna get.
https://ebrewsupply.com/collections/complete-diy/products/30a-pid-complete-control-panel-kit

:rockin:

if you have 243v at the dryer receptacle, no worries at all with that 50' #10 generator cord. you can remove the receptacle from the wall to inspect the wiring, should be able to determine wire gauge as well as if there is in fact a neutral at the receptacle (and that it isn't connected to the ground terminal or something like that). snap a picture of it if you can. oh, and turn the upstream circuit breaker off if that makes you more comfortable.

and agree with everyone on a gfci, either as a breaker replacement in the main panel or as a separate spa panel between the dryer receptacle and the brew panel. that can be portable too, along with the cord.

 

[Schlomo]

Sounds like u are good to go man.
If you don't have a problem swapping the Element and Thermocouple cables this box will save u a ton! and it works great
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=58_59&products_id=678

Holy crap! Thank you so much for sending this to me! I'll have to add a switch since i'm a 3 vessel so 2 elements but that should be easy enough to pipe in there.

 

[don_bran321]

You're welcome! I was amazed when I found the deal too. Also thinking of adding a 3 way switch and outlet (also have a 3 vessel)
but beware there's not a lot of space left in the box lower right side is ur best bet for 2nd outlet

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

Nope. Not the same at all. If you try to spit off any 120V circuits using the ground instead of a neutral, the 240V GFCI will trip every time (unless it is broken.) If you don't know why this is true, then you shouldn't be giving electrical advice.

Brew on

Well I'll be, so for 40 years I have been wiring everything wrong, would have thought some thing wouldn't have worked. Including my 3 controllers, 3 houses and number of commercial installs. Still I have never in my life come across 1 circuit that was only 2 wire 240. To think I would have found this on this forum of all places, leave it to engineers. With this I will bail on this forum

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

Well I'll be, so for 40 years I have been wiring everything wrong, would have thought some thing wouldn't have worked. Including my 3 controllers, 3 houses and number of commercial installs.

Hmmm,
Sounds like yall should steer clear of the Webster, New Hampshire real estate

 

[Schlomo]

Wanted to ask on my thread here if anyone would comment on SOOW vs SJOOW for my application? I know someone mentioned heat is a factor since my run is going to be longer than most, but is it worth me using the thicker SOOW over SJOOW?

Also i measured the voltage at the panel and voltage at the plug. Both were basically dead nuts 246 volts.