Need Help understanding Terms and receipe

[Creston24]

So I am using a recipe from Brewsmith. However, I am constantly getting lost in terminology, and the more I read, the more twisted I become. Basically the following is what I am using from my recipe: (I will not list everything, as some of it is actually easy to understand, however some of the terms, I just want 'confirmation' on) Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Batch Size: 5.5 Gal (Amount of wort going from boil into primary fermentation?)
Boil Size: 6.75 Gal (Total Amount of wort (mash+sparge water) in the pot when boiling starts?)
End of Boil Vol: 5.72 Gal (kinda self explanatory, so I assume that if my understanding of Boil Size *above* is correct, then there will be a loss of 1.03 Gallons due to evap during the boil?)

Again, don't mean to sound dumb, just need some clarification. Thanks!

 

[McKnuckle]

Batch size is actually the amount of finished beer that you want to package (in kegs or bottles).
Boil size is how much wort you start with in the kettle as you bring it up to a boil.
End of boil volume is how much wort is in the kettle when you turn off the heat. It then shrinks when it cools, and may have additional loss to hop absorption and trub, yielding a lesser amount to the fermenter.

...or, it may shrink when it cools, but you'll dump all of it into the fermenter. Your choice. The latter is easier.

Brewing is a game of losses! You start with a certain volume of water, and basically, it gets absorbed or evaporated or left behind in vessels during the entire process... until you finally package what's left. Getting a handle on these losses - how much they represent, and how to control them - is a very big part of learning to brew. Luckily, while it's a bit fiddly, it's not rocket science. It can be mastered!

 

[LandoLincoln]

Yes, the "batch size" is the volume of wort going into the fermentor(s).

Yes, the "boil size" is the volume of wort pre-boil at approximate mash-out temps. You'll gain about 2% of volume going from mashout temps to nearly-boiling temps. In theory. Basically, this number is there to verify that the wort isn't going to be spilling over the top of your kettle during the boil.

"End of boil vol" is the volume after boiling, at near boiling temps, before you chill the wort (which causes a loss of approximately 4% of the volume due to shrinkage). Or at least that's what I think Brewsmith takes it to mean.

The evaporation rate is very dependent on your brew rig. Wide, flat kettles have a greater surface area than tall skinny kettles, which means more evaporation.

It's good practice to do a "water only" run on your rig before your first use of a given rig so you can get a handle on how powerful your burners are, how much propane you're going to burn in a given brew day (if you are using propane), how much water is going to evaporate in your typical 60 minute brew, how much wort you're going to lose from the dead space in the bottom of your boil kettle and from tubing.

But it's not absolutely necessary. Just good practice.

 

[Creston24]

Ok. Thanks for those replies Lando and McKnuckle. Those answers really lead me down the path of what my brew requirements are going to be. Based on my reading, and my recipe (15 lbs of grain), and the fact that I am going to try BIAB process, I am trying to figure out what my initial water requirements and kettle size requirement is going to be.

From the reading I have done, my initial water requirement based on a figure of 1.25 <avg) quarts of water per lbs of grain (1.25q*15lbs) should be 18.75 quarts of water.

Also from my reading, the size kettle I will need for 18.75 q water and displacement of 15 lbs of grain (.32q per lbs*15lbs=7.5 q) 18.75+7.5q=30 quart bare minimum size pot. (for initial steeping of grains and the strike water). When I remove the grain bag after an hour of steeping, I should have plenty of room remaining in the pot for doing my boil, but that would only leave me 4.6 gallons of wart. I could try sparging my grains once out of the pot (seen a couple of people using BIAB process do this) to add additional volume to my wart in an attempt to get it back over 5 gallons prior to boiling. As mentioned above I will need to account for my loss to boil, and may try a 60 minute boil with just water to see what my evap loss would be. I don't know if I am on the right track or not, to end up with just over over 5 gallons prior to chil, knowing that I will loose about 4% to "shrinkage".

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Batch size is actually the amount of finished beer that you want to package (in kegs or bottles).

Batch size is usually defined as the volume going into fermenter. So post boil volume, once chilled, minus anything you leave behind in the kettle.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Ok. Thanks for those replies Lando and McKnuckle. Those answers really lead me down the path of what my brew requirements are going to be. Based on my reading, and my recipe (15 lbs of grain), and the fact that I am going to try BIAB process, I am trying to figure out what my initial water requirements and kettle size requirement is going to be.

Let me do the math for you. http://pricelessbrewing.github.io/BiabCalc/

Mash thickness can be whatever you want, I don't recommend going less than 1.25. Full volume/no sparges don't pay attention to it. I use 1.75-2.25 qt/lb.

Mash grain displacement is 0.08 gal/lb (edit: Units were wrong) , some adjuncts and grains displace more/less (wheat/rye/oats etc)

Pre boil volume needs to be ~(batch size + boil off rate)*1.044 if you ignore hop absorption.

 

[McKnuckle]

Batch size is usually defined as the volume going into fermenter. So post boil volume, once chilled, minus anything you leave behind in the kettle.

This is exactly the reason why I dislike the term. It's totally ambiguous.

We need to clearly distinguish between "volume to fermenter" and "packaged volume." I've seen Batch Size interchangeably used to reference either of those, and it's not helping anyone.

When I reference a "3 gallon batch," I usually mean I plan to put 3 gallons of beer into a keg when I'm totally done. I will actually plan to brew 3.25 gallons of wort, which is my "volume to fermenter." I know I'll lose about a quart to trub and yeast when I rack and/or package. I have no issue with saying "3.25 gallon batch" if that's really what brewers mean by "batch," but I don't think the term is 100% universal.

Anyway, please continue...

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I use the terms batch size and packaged volume to distinguish the two.

 

[unionrdr]

Batch size is the actual amount you're going to ferment. Boil volume is simply mash wort plus sparge to get total boil volume, whether that's full or partial boil.

 

[doug293cz]

...

Mash grain displacement is 0.08 qt/lb, some adjuncts and grains displace more/less (wheat/rye/oats etc)

...

Didn't you mean to say 0.08 gal/lb (0.32 qt/lb)?

This is exactly the reason why I dislike the term. It's totally ambiguous.

We need to clearly distinguish between "volume to fermenter" and "packaged volume." I've seen Batch Size interchangeably used to reference either of those, and it's not helping anyone.

When I reference a "3 gallon batch," I usually mean I plan to put 3 gallons of beer into a keg when I'm totally done. I will actually plan to brew 3.25 gallons of wort, which is my "volume to fermenter." I know I'll lose about a quart to trub and yeast when I rack and/or package. I have no issue with saying "3.25 gallon batch" if that's really what brewers mean by "batch," but I don't think the term is 100% universal.

Anyway, please continue...

OP is using BeerSmith, and in BeerSmith "Batch Volume" is volume into the fermenter. BeerSmith uses the term "Bottling Volume" for the volume packaged.

Brew on

 

[IslandLizard]

No need to do a water run.
Just estimate, brew and adjust. Brew and adjust again. After 2 or 3 brews you'll have your profile pretty much down.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Didn't you mean to say 0.08 gal/lb (0.32 qt/lb)?

Brew on

Correct.

 

[McKnuckle]

Using Beersmith... Batch Size is what goes in the fermenter. Thanks for the clarification. Sorry for creating extra noise!

 

[Creston24]

Thanks for all the info. I can see how easy it is to get confused. I picked up and assembled an outdoor propane cooker and have 2 30 qt kettles standing by. Once i get my figures sorted out, i am planning to take a day off from work....wed or friday to use as my brew day. Everything seems to be in order. The only other thing i am working on is a good place for my fermemter to set up. I have closets aplenty, just need to make sure they stay cool enough. Again from my reading, it sounds like 64 to 68F is going to be optimal temp, but most of my hose stays mid 70s. I may have to construct a cooler full of water with ice bottles to do this first batch until i can figure out something more efficient.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Again from my reading, it sounds like 64 to 68F is going to be optimal temp, but most of my hose stays mid 70s. I may have to construct a cooler full of water with ice bottles to do this first batch until i can figure out something more efficient.

A swamp cooler is a great way to start out. I'd set up your water tub now, and record the water temp every hour after set up to see how often/much water bottles you'll need.

When I'm home, I like to use small frozen bottles, or cold 2L water bottles instead of frozen ones to reduce the temp swings. For many yeast strains, it's better to have a consistent temp even if it's a degree or two above what you might want if the alternative is fluctuation.

 

[Creston24]

Well, wish i could be home all day to monitor for twi weeks. 65 to 68 is a very narrow range.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Well, wish i could be home all day to monitor for twi weeks. 65 to 68 is a very narrow range.

The bigger the swam cooler, the larger the thermal mass, and the more stable it is. I've found a bucket fermenter in a 20 gallon tote bin up to the beer surface level with water, it scarecely takes any ice at all (maybe two freezer ice packs three times a day) to hold 4-5 degrees below ambient remarkably steady. The further you go below ambient the less stable it'll be. Trying to hold 35-40F is a royal pain but doable.

Plus there's that whole evaporative part which drops it ever so slightly. I typically find my swamp cooler a hair cooler (a degree or less) below the ambient temp without having to add ice at all, which I presume is thermal energy needed to slowly evaporate the water.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Also, I recognize that my usage isn't traditional, but I think of "batch size" as the post-chill batch volume, not the fermenter volume. I've found BeerSmith is too screwy when it comes to trub loss, and rather than changing equipment settings for loss based on every recipe, I just zero all those losses out so that it equates my mash/lauter efficiency and my brewhouse efficiency as the same thing, and it doesn't start trying to screw up my batch sizes.

I've learned from experience how much I need to account for kettle and fermenter losses.

 

[Creston24]

Well i filled a caraboy with a surface themometer with water this morning and shoved it in a closet. Going to check the temp when i get home and go from there. I dont leave the ac running during the day so it will be a decent test.

 

[McKnuckle]

It will be a decent test of the ambient temp, but it won't simulate the temp of fermenting wort. Yeast generate heat during fermentation, making the liquid warmer than the ambient surroundings. The amount of increase will vary depending on the warmth of the ambient temp and the vigor of the fermentation - anywhere from 2 to 10 degrees F.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

I've found BeerSmith is too screwy when it comes to trub loss, and rather than changing equipment settings for loss based on every recipe, I just zero all those losses out so that it equates my mash/lauter efficiency and my brewhouse efficiency as the same thing, and it doesn't start trying to screw up my batch sizes.

I feel you there.

small rant incoming...

I think in a lot of ways Brad is a bit too in love with the concept of profiles. Mash profile, equipment profile etc. Why is the trub loss in the equipment profile? Why is the brewhouse efficiency in the equipment profile, when it varies with the process and grain bill. It shouldn't be tied to any profile. Boil time should be a recipe variable, not an equipment variable. Fermenter loss likewise.

If you separated the mash profiles and took the first mash step out, you would generalize it a ton and make it way easier for new brewers to use. Then do a drop down for, sparge or no sparge, and single infusion/decoction/stepmash. 1 mash profile would cover pretty much everything. Just change 2-3 variables. No looking around, picking from 300 different options that are all almost identical.

</small rant>

 

[McKnuckle]

This rant is justified. Even to change mash temp from 150 to 151 or 152, one needs to create or edit distinct profiles. You can't just put in mash temp as an independent variable, not associated with "body" descriptors and other steps.

And I hate how it uses brewhouse efficiency as the primary basis for recipe prediction, rather than mash efficiency. Brewhouse has too many variables, many of which are volume related and may vary per recipe, when what I really care about is gravity.

Ultimately I got frustrated with both Beersmith and Brewer's Friend and created my own spreadsheet for brewing. It's got everything I want in it, and nothing I don't.

 

[raysmithtx]

Even to change mash temp from 150 to 151 or 152, one needs to create or edit distinct profiles. You can't just put in mash temp as an independent variable, not associated with "body" descriptors and other steps.

You can easily change the mash temp. directly from the Mash tab. Just double click on the Mash Step and a window will pop up and you can change the Temp., Step Time, Rise Time, etc. right there.

 

[McKnuckle]

I know - I still don't like it. Just personal taste for how I like to work. Appreciate the info though.

 

[Qhrumphf]

BeerSmith is fully customizable for sure, but the learning curve goes WAY up for that. Also I'm not a fan of any of the preset profiles either. It also buggers step mashes in terms of FG estimates anyway, especially if you drop your beta rest below 147F.