Rookie mistake - help!

[Alphadawg]

I am making a Sam Adams type of lager with an extract recipe. I was doing this while trying to work from home - that is my excuse as I was distracted. It called for some specialty grains, some DME and 2 cans of pils LME. I forgot to add the 2nd can of LME until after the wort was already off the stove and cooling. I decided to go ahead and put the 2nd can in any way since I've read on here about "no boil" beers.

Have I ruined the beer? If not, what is likely to happen? Thanks for your help!

 

[mac_1103]

I very much doubt that you ruined you ruined the beer and you might even have improved it. How much had the wort cooled? When I do post-boil additions, I try to keep the wort at >170F for at least 20 minutes to pasteurize, but I think some would say that isn't necessary.

 

[Alphadawg]

I'm not sure what the temperature was. Probably closer to 120 as it had been cooling for about 20 minutes in ice. I was cleaning up and noticed the can of LME on the counter ...Doh!

 

[Rish]

Very unlikely you messed anything up as long as you sanitized anything you used to stir the lme into the wort.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If not, what is likely to happen?

The concern is some type of contamination that will continue to "ferment" the beer after the yeast has finished. If you are bottling, over time, you may see "gushers" (or worse).

 

[Alphadawg]

Understood. I did sanitize the spoon I used to stir in the last LME. Also, I keg so hopefully no gusher problems. i understand it could still be contaminated. Not sure there was another option at that point but to continue on.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Not sure there was another option at that point but to continue on.

In the future, adding a "count down" timer (I have a ThermoWorks TimeStick®]) would provide a reminder to add ingredients on brew day.

 

[IslandLizard]

The concern is some type of contamination that will continue to "ferment" the beer after the yeast has finished. If you are bottling, over time, you may see "gushers" (or worse).

If the outside of the can was clean and sanitized right before he added the LME, I'd doubt any bugs would get in the wort.
Since he's kegging: RDWHAHB!

 

[lumpher]

You should be ok having used a sanitized spoon to scoop out the lme and you keg. I'd still drink it pretty quick, though. Not because it might be contaminated, but because I like beer.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

If the outside of the can was clean and sanitized right before he added the LME, I'd doubt any bugs would get in the wort.

The LME inside of the container is also a consideration.

"Pasteurization is your friend".

I've read on here about "no boil" beers.

"Pasteurization is your friend".

---

eta: there was a multi-forum topic earlier this year (or late last year) about a batch where the LME was added too late to be pasteurized. In one of the other forum(s), the commentary was not too sympathetic to the OP - basically saying if it's LME, it needs to be pasteurized for best results. IIRC, the supplier of the LME agreed.

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There is a line between "short and shoddy" and "sloppy and stupid". Crossing the line is a personal decision.

Currently, I package in glass bottles. In OPs situation, I would dump this batch before pitching the yeast to "cut my losses".

As always, YMMV.

 

[IslandLizard]

The LME inside of the container is also a consideration.

You're referring to "bugs" living in (condensed) malt syrup, of a similar gravity/consistency as honey?
Mead makers don't boil their must.

In OPs situation, I would dump this batch before pitching the yeast to "cut my losses".

While I'd like to hear the results.
What are the chances of success/fail? 50/50?

Hops in beer are known to protect from certain infection/souring vectors, such as Lactobacillus.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

As I mentioned above ...

there was a multi-forum topic earlier this year (or late last year) about a batch where the LME was added too late to be pasteurized. In one of the other forum(s), the commentary was not too sympathetic to the OP - basically saying if it's LME, it needs to be pasteurized for best results. IIRC, the supplier of the LME agreed.

... and here are the links.

• Williams Brewing - Extract Fermenting in the Package
• Williams Brewing - Extract Fermenting in the Package

tl;dr? : the vendor assumes boiling of the wort.

Perhaps the best comment is this:

if I were selling LME I would assume the buyer would be boiling it.

And, when in doubt, consider using customer / supplier / vendor e-mail support.

"Pasteurization is your friend".

There is a line between "short and shoddy" and "sloppy and stupid". Crossing the line is a personal decision.

A number of years ago, when there was a "race to the bottom" on 'no boil' recipes, I mentioned some content in Deed's "Brewing Engineering" book (2015) as to when "short and shoddy" might become "sloppy and stupid". Over time, that content has "stood the test of time". "Shake it like the Doctor" will probably almost always work with DME. With LME (once again), "Pasteurization is your friend".

 

[IslandLizard]

... and here are the links.

• Williams Brewing - Extract Fermenting in the Package
• Williams Brewing - Extract Fermenting in the Package

tl;dr? : the vendor assumes boiling of the wort.

Thanks for the update and links.
I was not aware of those threads/discussions. A bit of eye opener, LME fermenting in the dispensing/shipping bag...

From the little information I got on Williams' site, their extracts seem to come in at around 33 ppg, while Briess are 36 ppg.
I doubt those 3 points make all the difference in self-fermentation of the syrups or not.
However, bulk dispensing into bags may introduce contaminants...

10 years ago I used to get Briess bulk LME poured into thick doubled-up plastic bags from 30 (?) gallon vats at the brew store. Their bulk LME was never older than 30-60 days. Once, in the middle of moving houses, the bag sat at 74F room temps for 2 months before I brewed with it. It was definitely not fermenting in the bag. And yes, it got a full boil of course. Tasted great!

Now, the OP didn't use poured bulk extracts, he used LME cans. Were they Briess?
I've seen those cans, from different maltsters, sitting on homebrew store shelves, some being well over a year old, and never saw one bulging or oozing or sticky remnants. Maybe those cans are sterilized or super-pasteurized?

From Briess LME bulletin (2021):
STORAGE AND SHELF LIFE
Store in a temperate, low humidity, pest free environment at temperatures of <90 ºF. Improperly stored extracts are prone to loss of freshness and color gain. May begin experiencing a slight flavor loss after 24 months.

Since the OP used factory canned LME, I think the odds of success are more in his favor here.
I certainly would not dump it now, unless things start to go badly downhill at some point. Keep an eye and nose on it, and see how it goes.

Sure, to the eliminate any chance of a possible infection from the unboiled extract, the OP can just re-pasteurize for 15' at 150F (IIRC that's the target time/temp target for wort pasteurization). Then chill as quickly as possible, aerate/oxygenate, and add new (dry) yeast. Or add liquid yeast if a starter is ready to pitch.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

A bit of eye opener

The other "eye opener" may be that both Williams and MoreBeer have long standing guidance on LME:

store it cool (refrigeration is better), use it promptly, be sure to boil it.​

​

It is unfortunate that the "race to the bottom" with 'no boil' recipes seems to have resulted in incorrect "forum wisdom" that one does not need to pasteurize LME. Maybe it will be easier to retrain LLMs than to manually correct "forum wisdom". Time will tell.

---

An simple way to help avoid missing ingredient additions is to use a kitchen timer. For example:

My brew day notes include the "start of boil" time and the time for each of the boil additions.

I position ingredients on brew day to help prevent missing ingredient additions.

There are probably a couple of older topics on how to organize for brew day.

edits: formatting.

 

[mac_1103]

I've seen those cans, from different maltsters, sitting on homebrew store shelves, some being well over a year old, and never saw one bulging or oozing or sticky remnants.

I've seen bulging cans of LME, but they were a LOT more than a year old.

 

[redrocker652002]

If it were me, and being that I am very new to all of this, I would probably dump it. Not worth getting sick or getting somebody else sick on bad beer. But, with that said, I am cheap as hell and hate to throw anything away, so who knows. Maybe run it till the end and see what it tastes like. I have read that if it is bad, you will know it right away. Keep us posted though, I am interested in how this is going to play out.

 

[TheBluePhantom]

You're referring to "bugs" living in (condensed) malt syrup, of a similar gravity/consistency as honey?
Mead makers don't boil their must.

To be fair, some use Potassium Metabisulfite, of course some don't. I don't, but I boil the must. I have issues and raw honey is bad for me.

Honey does have some amazing antibacterial powers though... Maybe he can dump a pound of honey in and that will serve as a protectant.

 

[IslandLizard]

The other "eye opener" may be that both Williams and MoreBeer have long standing guidance on LME:

store it cool (refrigeration is better), use it promptly, be sure to boil it.

Mind, those are LME poured from bulk vats into containers or bags. Not factory canned.
I think that makes a crucial difference.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

"Pasteurization is your friend".

 

[Alphadawg]

The wort seems to be fermenting normally. I will update this thread once it is done. Fingers crossed!

 

[IslandLizard]

The wort seems to be fermenting normally.

Once you pitch yeast, wort becomes... beer!
We're fermenting beer.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The wort seems to be fermenting normally. I will update this thread once it is done. Fingers crossed!

It's unlikely you'll notice anything by the end of fermentation. It is unlikely that contamination that causes a slow, on-going fermentation will show up before packaging. If packaging in bottles, It may show up as gushers over time. Or it may not show up at all. Packaging in kegs probably masks the possibility of the slow moving continuing fermentation.

IMO, the "mistake" that was made was assuming that "no boil" processes /1/ /2/ do not pasteurize the wort. The "no boil" processes that work, time after time after time after time, pasteurize the wort.

---

/1/ no boil pre-hopped kits, direct from the OEM, are a different topic.
/2/ as well as historical farm-house (literally) brewing. Yes, I've (partially) read Historical Brewing Techniques.

 

[Alphadawg]

Quick update - I waited 3 weeks and checked FG. The OG was 1.050 and the FG was 1.010. I am cold crashing the beer to clear it up (it had lots of suspended yeast). The beer tasted fine and looked normal. Fingers crossed! BTW, I plan to keg the beer.

 

[Alphadawg]

Kegged the beer this weekend and it was fine. No noticeable infection. The beer was clear and tasted like Sam Adams lager. It was maybe a little more bitter than expected but still good. It looks like the mistake was not too serious but I know to be more careful from now on.

 

[skunkape]

If it were me, and being that I am very new to all of this, I would probably dump it. Not worth getting sick or getting somebody else sick on bad beer. But, with that said, I am cheap as hell and hate to throw anything away, so who knows. Maybe run it till the end and see what it tastes like. I have read that if it is bad, you will know it right away. Keep us posted though, I am interested in how this is going to play out.

Personally, I would never dump a batch - even if it gets the funk - unless I either puked or lost my eyesight after tasting it.

But then, I'm not opposed to a bit of horse blanket in a batch. Sad part is having to either retire or dedicate the bucket.

 

[RosettaSt0ned]

Personally, I would never dump a batch - even if it gets the funk - unless I either puked or lost my eyesight after tasting it.

But then, I'm not opposed to a bit of horse blanket in a batch. Sad part is having to either retire or dedicate the bucket.

The first (and only) infected batch I've brewed was a blonde ale that I said I'd let sit until it was drinkable.

I've sampled it 5 or 6 times, and it's still disgusting. It's been sitting in a carboy for just about 10 years at this point. I don't think it's going to get any better.

Some batches are better sacrificed to the beer gods.

 

[skunkape]

The first (and only) infected batch I've brewed was a blonde ale that I said I'd let sit until it was drinkable.

I've sampled it 5 or 6 times, and it's still disgusting. It's been sitting in a carboy for just about 10 years at this point. I don't think it's going to get any better.

Some batches are better sacrificed to the beer gods.

yeah... 10 years, wow. That's a goner. 1 year would have been enough, probably. I have never had a batch go infected except for the ones I attempted to go all farmhouse on and open ferment. And then I still drank most of it over time. Open a bottle, drink half and then dump half. And it varied a bit bottle to bottle. Had no kegs back then.