My Super Efficient 5-Gallon Mash Lauter Tun

[Myrdhyn]

Would there be any increase in deadspace (leftover water/wort) if you were to run the drain line up, over, and back down to the bulkhead, say for instance if your cooler was perfectly flat on the bottom? Or would it leave the same amount (0.03g)?

 

[ChemE]

Would there be any increase in deadspace (leftover water/wort) if you were to run the drain line up, over, and back down to the bulkhead, say for instance if your cooler was perfectly flat on the bottom? Or would it leave the same amount (0.03g)?

There sure would. You would add most of the internal volume of the drain line to the dead space. Additionally, I was able to slice a few narrow slits in the plastic drain line that connects the two nipples and this allowed for more complete draining of the MLT. This allowed me to get my dead space down to 45mL or 0.01 gallons. If one was forced to run the drain line over a portion of the manifold in a perfectly flat bottomed cooler this option would be out as well.

Now how much efficiency would this incomplete draining cost us? Let's assume a 5.5 gallon batch of a 1.070 beer, final runnings of 1.010 (which is pretty good), and a planned efficiency of 80%. So we would have mashed enough grain to yield 481.25 gravity points so that after 80% efficiency we were left with 5.5(70) or 385. However, we've left 0.05 gallons (assumed an extra 0.02 gallons of dead space) of 1.010 wort in the MLT or 0.05(10) = 0.5 gravity points. This is reducing our efficiency by 0.5/481.25 or 0.1%. Not a very big deal to most people perhaps myself included and I'm nearly crazy about efficiency.

 

[dzamba]

I just built one of these using a 10 gallon version the same coleman cooler. I found it on ebay for $40 shipped and built the manifold and spigot for another $15. I used cpvc instead of copper just to save some money. I just used it for the first time yesterday and it worked great. After preheating it it only lost about .7 of a degree over the hour mash. I am very pleased with it.

I just bought the exact one on ebay. There is a bit of a challenge: the manifold can't sit on the bottom and cover the entire perimeter because the spigot is flush with the bottom. I spent some time designing one of these only to find that it is nearly impossible to find cpvc and completely impossible to find a cross fitting. I am going to copy your design. Thanks and please don't sue.

 

[ChemE]

I just bought the exact one on ebay. There is a bit of a challenge: the manifold can't sit on the bottom and cover the entire perimeter because the spigot is flush with the bottom. I spent some time designing one of these only to find that it is nearly impossible to find cpvc and completely impossible to find a cross fitting. I am going to copy your design. Thanks and please don't sue.

I think the mistake people have been making is using a coupling inside the MLT. If you look closely at my first picture you can see that unlike some of the copies I just have a 3/8" nipple inside the tun. This is low enough in profile that the copper pipe is able to run sideways across it. I'll post a close-up since this seems to be the one troublesome part for others to copy...

Close Up of MLT Drain

Manifold Resting FLAT on Bottom of MLT

 

[dzamba]

That makes a lot of sense. It easily fits on top.

 

[tireater]

I'm trying to make one of these as K Mart has the coolers for less than $<20...
Question...Why is there a valve to valve transfer...It seems like one is extra...
Is that one of those fuzzy fiber washers in the MLT...No way you will ever clean that...
What size is the copper pipe..?

Anyway...awesome job..!

 

[ChemE]

Question...Why is there a valve to valve transfer...It seems like one is extra...

Do you mean nipple to nipple transfer? It is so I can use a short piece of flexible tubing. The tubing allows for easy removal and installation of the manifold for cleaning. Besides that there is no way I could use hard pipe to make such an odd transition in such a tight space.

Is that one of those fuzzy fiber washers in the MLT...No way you will ever clean that...

Nope, just a badly corroded carbon steel washer. I really need to change it out for a stainless steel washer but I've been too lazy. Once my beer starts tasting like iron I'll probably get motivated; so far so good!

What size is the copper pipe..?

1/2" copper pipe.

Anyway...awesome job..!

Thanks! Glad it helped.

 

[tireater]

I will finish mine today...I think I will just use a nipple on the first cooler...I still don't understand the 2 ball valves in a row...???

 

[tireater]

I am also getting rid of the hose in the bottom...I will run the tubes the other direction and connect it with the same tube...Pic tomorrow...

 

[ChemE]

I will finish mine today...I think I will just use a nipple on the first cooler...I still don't understand the 2 ball valves in a row...???

Oh are you referring to the ball valve leaving the HLT and then the CPVC ball valve going into MLT? If so the CPVC ball valve is extra and I never use it.

 

[ChemE]

I am also getting rid of the hose in the bottom...I will run the tubes the other direction and connect it with the same tube...Pic tomorrow...

Be careful of short circuiting. It sounds like you are going to create a scenario in which water will preferentially drill down the middle of the cooler towards that pipe and skip the other pipes. It is very easy to check for on brew day though so it is easy to establish whether that is robbing efficiency or not.

 

[tireater]

Thanks for the tip...I will try to encourage it to drain around the outside...
It seemed to me the hose nipples in the drain are a bit of a choke point...
It seems better to maintain the same ID thru the drain...

 

[ChemE]

It seemed to me the hose nipples in the drain are a bit of a choke point...
It seems better to maintain the same ID thru the drain...

It doesn't seem to be, but I fly sparge so I'm never looking to drain faster than 30 minutes. I suppose it depends on what your goal is.

 

[KayaBrew]

I'm in the process of making the copper manifold for my MLT, and I'm just wondering...do I need to make sure the inside of the copper tubing is relatively clean? I've used this stuff for years doing plumbing, hot water heaters, etc, but I just want to be sure. I thought I could "clean it out" by simply doing a test run with nothing but boiling water to rinse out the manifold.

FYI, I'm going the batch sparge route for now instead of a fly sparge.

 

[KayaBrew]

One more thing...should I aim for the 5 gallon cooler as pictured? I was thinking of using a 36 qt. Coleman "Extreme" rectangular cooler. Any issues with that idea?

 

[The Pol]

A 5 gallon MLT is pretty darn small.

I used to have one... not long before I realized I needed a 10 gallon for most 5 gallon batches

Then when you start looking at conversion efficiency, you MAY want to start mashing thinner, towards 2qt/Lb of malt... then you will need much more space than a 5 gallon MLT will provide.

10 pound malt bills in my system, need 4 gallons of water alone to mash in. My conversion eff. jumped when I started mashing thinner. Leave your options open IMHO and get a larger MLT than 5 gal.

ALSO, if you are batch sparging, you will want a larger MLT to help with that process.

 

[KayaBrew]

Thanks, Pol. I think I'll get that Coleman Xtreme cooler. It claims to keep ice frozen for something like 7 days at 90F. Hopefully it is just as efficient at the opposite!

 

[The Pol]

Thanks, Pol. I think I'll get that Coleman Xtreme cooler. It claims to keep ice frozen for something like 7 days at 90F. Hopefully it is just as efficient at the opposite!

Sure will be.

 

[ChemE]

I agree with The Pol. When I made this MLT I was still brewing 2.5 gallon batches and fermenting in my Mr. Beer. Now, I've done several 5 gallon batches one of which had an OG of 1.074 but I also get extreme efficiency. Ideally, this would be a 10 gallon MLT so I could mash thinner where required/desired. Keep in mind that those Coleman Xtremes are going to yield very shallow grain beds and part of my design criteria was a grain bed which was as tall as possible to provide good filtration and allow for better rinsing of the sugar from the grain bed. I just don't like the aspect ratios of the rectangular picnic coolers but to each his own.

 

[ChemE]

Sure will be.

Liar! Heat will escape fairly readily via convection out the lid because of the density mismatch between the air inside the cooler being less dense than the air outside the cooler. This doesn't happen to nearly the same extent when the interior of the cooler is colder than the surroundings. It doesn't work as well but it still works very damn well; plenty good enough for our purposes.

 

[The Pol]

He also said that he is batch sparging, where the grain bed depth being shallow will not hurt him as badly, also channeling wont really be much of an issue with the batch sparging process.

 

[wedward]

A 5 gallon MLT is pretty darn small.
Then when you start looking at conversion efficiency, you MAY want to start mashing thinner, towards 2qt/Lb of malt... then you will need much more space than a 5 gallon MLT will provide.
ALSO, if you are batch sparging, you will want a larger MLT to help with that process.

I'm starting to see this as well with a few lager recipes I am trying. I'm getting great efficiency from this design (followed exactly except still do a hybrid sparge manually) but am running into hitting proper higher temps lately and simply can't add enough water to hit them (155 to 170 steps) even with a decoction step.
Still - it's a great design and is good to have around for most 5 G batches or smaller!

 

[ChemE]

That's great to hear! Thanks wedward. Intellectually I know that a deeper filter bed must result in more efficient rinsing of sugar but I've privately wondered if it is academic only or if it translates into measurability. One of my favorite "tricks" that I learned in graduate engineering is exploring the extreme cases.

Imagine a 5 gallon MLT 12' by 12', the height would be 0.05" so the grain bed would obviously be less than that. It is pretty intuitive that a sparge would accomplish virtually nothing in such a setup. Now imagine a 5 gallon drinking straw many tens of feet tall. A sparge in such a vessel would almost totally strip the top grist of any sugar.

Perhaps some of the intention behind the design is actually accomplished here...

 

[The Pol]

Deeper grain beds are more eff. when fly sparging, when batch sparging they have almost no affect due to the process by which it is accomplished.

I think that a majority of the LARGE cooler users here are brewing 10 gallon batches, or they are batch spargers. Shallow grain beds and inefficient manifolds when fly sparging are eff. killers.

 

[wedward]

Yeah my sparge run off is so clear sometimes I am wondering if it's not just water, but the lowest measurement I've seen has been around the 1.010 mark when you are supposed to stop anyways. I think once I get the top manifold/sparge arm setup, I'll have an easier time with this. I'm thinking of a pump instead of gravity, so will need to reread all here to ensure the sparge speed is correctly maintained. Then I can sit back and be lazy (prep other things...).

 

[ChemE]

Yeah my sparge run off is so clear sometimes I am wondering if it's not just water, but the lowest measurement I've seen has been around the 1.010 mark when you are supposed to stop anyways.

Ah, but that's just a rule of thumb. You can keep sparging as long as the pH of your runoff stays below 5.2 and the mash temperature stays below 175F you can keep running off without extracting tannins. The sg of my last runnings on my last batch was 1.004 but the pH was still 5.0 so no worries about tannins.

 

[wedward]

Ah, but that's just a rule of thumb. You can keep sparging as long as the pH of your runoff stays below 5.2 and the mash temperature stays below 175F you can keep running off without extracting tannins. The sg of my last runnings on my last batch was 1.004 but the pH was still 5.0 so no worries about tannins.

Ahh now that's good news! I've been focusing on German Lagers and have read that monitoring pH is the key. One more reason to get that pH meter... I use 5.2 stabilizer in my mash and sparge water, so assume I'm OK in that area, but need to get the meter to verify. I do the hybrid (BM's) sparge with 180 ish water but the internal temp of the mash never hits 170, so I'm sure I'm OK. No tannin tastes I've recognized so far....

 

[ChemE]

I just use the cheapo pH test strips to monitor pH during sparging. You can get the meter because its a fun toy but especially if you're batch sparging just keep adding sparge water, mix, test for pH, and if it is below 5.2 and doesn't taste bitter run of that batch to the kettle. Eventually you'll get to the point where it is either bitter or has no sugar left and that's the batch you don't add to the kettle.

 

[JCourtland]

How does the flex tube hold up with the heat

 

[wedward]

I just use the cheapo pH test strips to monitor pH during sparging. You can get the meter because its a fun toy but especially if you're batch sparging just keep adding sparge water, mix, test for pH, and if it is below 5.2 and doesn't taste bitter run of that batch to the kettle. Eventually you'll get to the point where it is either bitter or has no sugar left and that's the batch you don't add to the kettle.

Missed this reply.... Great advice. Do you take a small sample and dip the test strip or just dip in the MLT? (dumb question worth asking... in case)

 

[skibumdc]

Man this thread is great.
I was planning to do batch sparging when I go all grain, but with a fly-sparging process this simple, I don't see why I wouldn't try this instead.

I'll probably do cpvc manifolds to start and if I want later switch to copper.

 

[retheredge]

>>I think the mistake people have been making is using a coupling inside the MLT. If you look closely at my first picture you can see that unlike some of the copies I just have a 3/8" nipple inside the tun. This is low enough in profile that the copper pipe is able to run sideways across it. I'll post a close-up since this seems to be the one troublesome part for others to copy...<<

Close Up of MLT Drain

I understand the gray item in the picture is a washer but what is the beige item between the washer and the barbed nipple?

 

[jjp36]

I believe that just a rubber gasket. After a couple mashes the heat from the mash and the pressure from the fitting pushing on it will cause it to deform a little.

 

[metaltim]

I know this is way late.. came across this through a search..

as for keeping the liquid level the same.. that hartford loop looks pretty fancy..

Why not just put MLT on a scale! same amount of weight = same amount of water.

 

[WPStrassburg]

Anyone care to report back on the use of the hartford loop? Unless you are running really high sparge rates, it would seem that you should almost be creating no suction on the grain bed and leave the grain in a neutral buoyancy state.

ChemE, you have a RC screenname? I think I recgonize your stand.

 

[ChemE]

Same as here: ChemE

 

[swanwick]

Post #28 of this thread on page 3: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/my-super-efficient-5-gallon-mash-lauter-tun-92724/index3.html

shows the Hartford loop. I would like to try this by adding CPVC arm to my 3/8" brass ball valve coming out bottom of my large rectangle cooler MLT.

Here is what I am thinking:

1. Want the arm to swing and lock in place to allow variable mash height
2. Want the arm to swing all the way down to horizontal for vorlauf, initial mash out and end of sparge

I have read about Hartford loop downside of overflow due to stuck mash, but I have done about 10batches AG and never had a stuck mash so not so worried about that.

I think with set-up described, ball valve I already have is only flow control I would need outside the MLT. Ball valve from HLT will control inflow which in turn controls outflow (whole point of Hartford loop).

As far as fittings: I think would need some sort of CPVC bushing to go from 3/8" ball to non threaded CPVC, an elbow that fits that CPVC, straight piece for main arm, Tee for top of arm, something with threads that I can put a barb onto the right angle of the T, and finally a cap for the T when it is horizontal (or possibly replace T with an elbow before bringing it down to horizontal.

Does that make sense? Anyone know exactly what fittings I would need to make that work? How would I get the arm to lock at variable angles?

Appreciate the help.

 

[rod734]

Thanks, Guys. It just seems like a much better investment than the starter kits I've been looking at. I think I'd end up going to this anyway....

I havn't read all the replys and maybe someone has already suggested this, but I use a simple floatation devise constructed from two ping pong balls and a piece of stainless filler rod. I drilled a small hole in the lid of my cooler to accomodate a peice of filler rod and simply heated the rod and pushed it through the ping pong balls. One of the ping pong balls if permanantly fixed to the rod on the inside of the lid and floats on my liquid level, the other slides on the rod outside of the lide to mark my grain level. I can the adjust my flow to maintain the water level I want.

 

[shackledrage]

It looks like the flexible tubing is in a recessed/channel portion of the cooler. Otherwise your correct in the appearance that the manafold looks elivated from the bottom.

I am going to Lowes to build one of these and will post the supplies used.

 

[tre9er]

Yes, there is a recess in the bottom of the cooler for runout that the tubing fits into. I believe he addressed that on page 2.