More to balance than BU:GU?

[slurms]

I had a vienna lager a little while back that I really liked so figured I'd give it a go trying to make one. Brewed one up about 2 months ago and finally took a sample of it from the keg. Sad day, because it didn't really taste how I was hoping. It has a subtle bready/toasty flavor from the vienna malt, but it is just too sweet compared to the one that sparked this brew.

I had a target BU:GU of 0.5, supposedly in the range of nice and balanced, not too sweet, not too bitter. Well, that was all fine and good, but the yeast didn't attenuate as much as predicted (missed by 2 points, no biggie). So here I have a beer that is in the middle of the road with respect to BU:GU, OG/FG were more or less within what I was aiming for with the yeast. But, it's sweet.

So what's going on here? I think I read that BU:GU of 0.5 is on the high side for a vienna lager (don't even want to imagine what a lower ratio would have given me). The FG ended up at 1.015, kinda on the high side of a FG, but not too far off from the targeted 1.013. The attenuation I got was ~75% compared to Brewcipher's prediction of 77% using 2 packs of Saflager w-34/70. Could it just be from the higher FG? I've had other brews I made with a FG in that range (though not sure on the BU:GU for them), which weren't so sweet.

Before it's mentioned, I take precautions for oxidation post fermentation and close-transfer to a prepurged keg.

Don't have the recipe/data in front of me, but it was along the lines of the following, recipe made in Brewcipher:
85-90% Vienna
2-5% munich
2-5% Crystal 40-60
The rest was carapils and black malt (for color)

27 IBUs using Crystal hops

OG: 1.054 (measured as 1.053)
FG: 1.013 (measured as 1.015)

Water was built up using distilled

 

[Yooper]

Those are great "sweet" malts. Not really sweet in the sense of sugar, but the maltiness comes across and a bit sweet. It's a good basic recipe. I'd probably use 100% Vienna (that's what I do), as the Munich is really a bit much if you want a quaffable Vienna lager, and either crystal malt (probably not) or a little carapils if you feel you need it (you really don't). Maybe just a touch of Munich malt if you want a bit more deep malt flavor.

I'd probably use a few additions to the water but not much, and keep the crystal hops if you like them. The IBUs should be ok if you take out the cara malts and reduce the Munich.

 

[marc1]

If it's too sweet, drop the crystal and up your IBUs a bit. Or, if you must have crystal malt, change your crystal - from the couple of times that I have used it CaraMunich didn't seem as sweet as American crystal 40.
Calculated vs perceived IBUs are going to be different for every person's specific setup. The IBU formulas (of which there are several) are based on very specific conditions that are probably not what you are doing. Pick a formula and get used to how it works in your system vs. perceived bitterness on different styles.
Tweaking recipes is iterative; this one was a little too sweet so make some changes for the next one. Repeat

 

[slurms]

Thanks for the input all. I guess it just boils down (heh) to not just the residual sugars based on the FG, but how those sugars/flavors are perceived. Makes sense, and kinda what I was thinking after a while.

Also, I was hoping to just use vienna, caramunich, and a little black malt as the grainbill, but the LHBS was out of caramunich. So I figured, a little munich, c40, and carapils would have a similar affect. Perhaps I was way off here. Oh well, live and learn. At least my girlfriend likes this one more than me.

 

[BrewHack]

I had a similar problem with a similar recipe. I halved the % crystal in the next iteration. Turned out great.

 

[jdauria]

As others have said, drop the crystal, replace with Caramunich if you want. As for black malt, I would use a little Carafa Special II instead if black malt, but that's just me. 2 points short of est FG should not be an issue for throwing off your BU:GU ratio where that's based on OG. But to me, final gravity seems high both ways. What was your mash temp? You could try lowering it or doing a step mash to help bring it more to the balanced or drier side then full. Most of my lagers I step mash and finish below 1.010 unless they are suppose to be super malty. 2 packs of 34/70 also seems a little low...using Brewer's Friend yeast calculator, 1.054 OG assuming 5 gallon batch, that's only about 0.87 million cells per mL per degree Plato, for lagers, you want to be at least at 1 million if not higher. Could be why it finished a few points high. I pitch my lagers at a 1.5M/ml/°P rate at a minimum. Curious, what were your water additions?

 

[Holden Caulfield]

As other mentioned, drop the crystal and caramalt which will reduce the residual sweetness and caramel flavors unless you want caramel. Here is a great article from Briess on the difference between crystal and cara malts which may help you dial in the flavor profile you seek - Is it Crystal or Caramel Malt? - Brewing With Briess

One item that was not brought up - what was your mash schedule? You can reduce the residual sweetness and dry out the beer by altering the length, temperature and steps of you mash. For example, Jamil Zaineshef's recipe for making a Bitburger clone which has a very dry finish is to do a single infusion for 90 mins at 149.

 

[cmac62]

Okay, so this is a new thread, I figure I can ask this here: What the heck is the BU:GU ratio? LOL. I figure it has something to do with the IBU and sweetness/maltiness, but how do you figure it? Thanks

 

[DBhomebrew]

IBU:Orig Grav Units

25IBU
1.050 OG

25:50
BU:GU = .5

 

[Holden Caulfield]

Okay, so this is a new thread, I figure I can ask this here: What the heck is the BU:GU ratio? LOL. I figure it has something to do with the IBU and sweetness/maltiness, but how do you figure it?

BU/GU is just short hand for bitterness to gravity ratio. The BU:GU Ratio is determined by dividing the number of IBUs in a beer by the number of points of original gravity to provide a rough estimate of the balance between hop bitterness compared to the malt sweetness. For example a beer that is 30 IBU and has an original gravity of 1.060 would have a BU/GU of .5 (30/60)

While it does not actually quantify the sweetness of the beer. It gives a indication of balance between bitterness and sweetness. Beer styles have target ranges to help achieve the style's target flavor balance. Below is a chart...

 

[cmac62]

Thanks, I tried searching here, but then did a google search and it came up pretty quick. But, on the chart, what does the white dot mean. The bars are pretty easy, but the dots are all over the place. LOL.

 

[DBhomebrew]

The dots are BU:GU. The bars are Balance Values, a more rigorous formula bringing attenuation and such into the mix.

https://klugscheisserbrauerei.wordp...referred,International Bittering Units (IBUs)

 

[cactusgarrett]

The ratio (ratios are often expressed in terms of numbers separated by the colon) is a way of normalizing the bitterness by taking into account the original gravity. You can have an imperial stout with 50 IBU, but because the OG is something like 1.100, it'll still be perceived as malty as hell. Conversely, you can have a session IPA have only 30 IBU, but because the OG was only 1.040 it'll present as extremely hoppy and bitter.

Here's a good chart to use to see the implications of the BU:GU ratio:

 

[cmac62]

That chart makes sense. I once made a English Barley wine and it had more IBUs that some of my IPAs, but it was also 1.10 or higher OG. Thanks for the info.

 

[ncbrewer]

The dots are BU:GU. The bars are Balance Values, a more rigorous formula bringing attenuation and such into the mix.

https://klugscheisserbrauerei.wordp...referred,International Bittering Units (IBUs)

That's a very interesting article. The "balance value" takes some other things into account that BU:GU doesn't. But the BU:GU works well for my purposes, so I'll probably continue to use it.

 

[Alan Reginato]

Yes, there's more things to keep in mind.
For example, body (residual sugars) and mouth feel, can be related, but isn't the same thing.
In this case, ABV and esters plays an important role. Even a dry beer can be felt as "full" when you taste it.

 

[slurms]

A lot of posts since I last looked.. But here is the recipe I used.

5.5 gal into the fermenter
9.5# Vienna (90%)
0.56# Munich (5.4%)
0.25# C40 (2.4%)
0.125# Carapils (1.2%)
0.125# Black Malt (1.2%)

Water Chemistry (from distilled, set to Amber Dry in BrunWater)
53ppm Calcium
13ppm Magnesium
14ppm Sodium
110ppm Sulfate
51ppm Chloride
5.53 Est. mash Ph

I also notice that it's better a bit more carbed up, which makes sense with the effervescence masking the maltiness, so it might not be a total loss. Blaming that on a different temperature setting for my new keggerator...