Medicinal taste haunts me yet again!

[Fin-lander]

Here is the situation: I brewed quite a few batches at my last place and made lots of fine beer. One day the batches began to go bad, and I had like 5 dumpers in a row - almost quit the hobby. I thought it was sanitation problems and did just about everything except treat my water to no avail. Eventually I moved and built a new system. The beers are all very medicinal - I'm almost positive chlorophenols are to blame. I thought at the new place I would just have to treat my water with sodium met. and I would be set. I'm 0 for 2 here at my new house. The only variable from my last place still in service is my glass carboy and I guess the iodophor. About the time I started to have trouble at the old place, I soaked a lot of my equip including my carboy in a bleach solution for like a week or 2. This is the only thing I can think of - do you think the bleach is somehow holding over from the past? I'm obviously ditching the carboy next batch, but I wanted some reassurance - this is very discouraging!
Thanks

 

[Dalarast]

Since your using glass I think its hard to keep bleach if you rinsed properly to hold over a bleach flavor. But I guess its possible. Prior to brewing are you sanitizing your equipment with starstan or some other sanitizer before utilizing the carboy?

Why dump the batch though... I mean I made some bad batches before I just drank them (like drinking cheap whiskey/vodka gritting my teeth through it) or just continued to age it in the bottles. Besides if it taste like medical waste just give it to a hospital and let them enjoy it

 

[Revvy]

The problem with using bleach on a regular basis, while at the same time using municipal water, certain minerals in whatever water you use and certain plastics, is that you could build up chloramines in your brewing systems, which could contirbute to off flavors in your beer.

In some situations they work cumulatively by having little bits of chlorine in different parts of the brewing process that your beer may come in contact with, and it builds up and bammo plastic band aid flavor.

It's best to avoid chlorine as much as possible, and in the case of sanitizing ONLY in the most dire situations, like where you know for sure you have an infection.....we call it slash and burning.

I try to limit the amount of contact my gear comes to chlorine and chlorine products.

Chloramines are funny that way, some folks aren't affected, and in other situations the right combination causes it.

 

[BigEd]

Here is the situation: I brewed quite a few batches at my last place and made lots of fine beer. One day the batches began to go bad, and I had like 5 dumpers in a row - almost quit the hobby. I thought it was sanitation problems and did just about everything except treat my water to no avail. Eventually I moved and built a new system. The beers are all very medicinal - I'm almost positive chlorophenols are to blame. I thought at the new place I would just have to treat my water with sodium met. and I would be set. I'm 0 for 2 here at my new house. The only variable from my last place still in service is my glass carboy and I guess the iodophor. About the time I started to have trouble at the old place, I soaked a lot of my equip including my carboy in a bleach solution for like a week or 2. This is the only thing I can think of - do you think the bleach is somehow holding over from the past? I'm obviously ditching the carboy next batch, but I wanted some reassurance - this is very discouraging!
Thanks

Have you read this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/home-brewish-taste-154674/ down the page a bit?

 

[Fin-lander]

Yeah, I'm learning the hard way with bleach - if I find this to be the culprit - which it almost has to be, I'll never allow it in my basement again as long as I live! I have rinsed/scrubbed the carboy many times and have had a few batches through it since the bleach episode (all bad). I soaked it in a strong potassium metabisulfite solution before this batch thinking it would take care of any residual bleach, but no luck. The only reason I haven't changed it out yet is that with it being glass, I thought it would be fine after a good cleaning/rinsing. With this new system I have been using PBW to clean and iodophor to sanitize, though like I said it's almost new. I have also pumped boiling water through everything before using. It's gotta be that damn carboy! If my next batch is bad while using a new fermenter I'll really be stumped.

 

[Fin-lander]

Have you read this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/home-brewish-taste-154674/ down the page a bit?

If you're refering to the fermentation temps - not the problem. The last 2 batches I used Nottingham and fermented around 60 - 61*.

I have tried a few different yeasts as well, and it's a very medicinal bandaid taste - dries out your mouth. Gotta be chlorophenols - though I'm no judge. Doesn't improve at all with age, and pretty undrinkable.

 

[Blender]

The taste you describe sounds very similar to the one I was having a year or so ago. I was chlorophenols. I made plenty of good beer but I dumped a couple of bad ones. I have never used bleach so I thought it must be the iodaphor or the water or a combination of the 2. Since changing to Starsan the problem seems to have been resolved. It won't hurt to change and find out.

 

[FlyGuy]

So all your brewing water got treated with metabisulfate/campden tablets? You didn't forget about the top-up water or sparge water?

Do you use bleach water in a blow-off bucket or airlock that might be getting sucked in your carboy?

It might be bleach reside, but bleach usually rinses very easily from glass if you are careful. But it sounds like it is getting into your system in quantity somewhere.

 

[Dalarast]

So all your brewing water got treated with metabisulfate/campden tablets? You didn't forget about the top-up water or sparge water?

Do you use bleach water in a blow-off bucket or airlock that might be getting sucked in your carboy?

It might be bleach reside, but bleach usually rinses very easily from glass if you are careful. But it sounds like it is getting into your system in quantity somewhere.

+1 on the above. As I said earlier I don't think, if the corboy was rinsed, that you should have any bleach elements in your corboy (unless you have somehow scratched the glass and have bacteria traces). I understand thats hard to do.. I could do it cause I suck and apparently try really hard at ruining stuff. But perhaps your bottling bucket, strainers, or any number of equipment was never rinsed or sanitized properly.

 

[Fin-lander]

So all your brewing water got treated with metabisulfate/campden tablets? You didn't forget about the top-up water or sparge water?

Do you use bleach water in a blow-off bucket or airlock that might be getting sucked in your carboy?

It might be bleach reside, but bleach usually rinses very easily from glass if you are careful. But it sounds like it is getting into your system in quantity somewhere.

I was very careful to treat every drop of water that came out of the faucet on the last batch including any sanitizing water and the water that I used in the airlock. Nothing got sucked in - fermentation started within 8 hours or so, and was a steady mellow fermentation.

I guess it could be the iodophor somehow, or the carboy. I'll keep you posted and thanks for the ideas. I don't use a bottling bucket - the wort is pumped through a chiller (which I run boiling wort through for 10 mins prior) and directly into the carboy.

I'm using a farm-supply iodophor, though I've read of a commercial brewer that has used the stuff. Maybe time to try a batch with starsan. I may brew a couple of mini-batches with different fermenters and sanitizers to try to narrow down the culprit.

 

[Fin-lander]

Has anyone ever had any chlorophenolic flavors due to using iodophor? I know of more than one pro brewer that use it regularly.

 

[Wayne1]

While some pro-brewers do use an iodophor, many more use an acid or chlorine dioxide based sanitizer.

With home use of iodophor, there can be problems with too high a concentration. A lot of people feel if a little is good a lot is better. Not with iodophor. The proper use is between 12.5 and 25 ppm. When used in concentrations above 25 ppm you must rinse, which may recontamiate your equipment. Test strips are suggested to assure the correct concentration.

Star-San or Sani-Clean are acid aniotics. They require no rinse up to concentrations of 300ppm. There are NO off flavors associated with their use.

I would suggest changing your sanitizer, for at least one brew, to Star-San to see if it would make a difference. It may cost more than iodophor, but if it prevents you from dumping a batch, it will pay for itself.

 

[Fin-lander]

I guess I have been a bit lax at measuring the iodophor - that'd be great if this is the problem! I can't immagine I have been too far over the 25ppm range, but perhaps. I didn't realize this stuff could cause a problem like this - very good to know!

 

[Yambor44]

I would bet the iodophor is the culprit. Change to Starsan. You can mix it in a 2 or 5 gallon seal-able bucket and it will keep for months. I use a PH scale on mine and usually mix a fresh batch every 3 months just because I want to keep it clean. The PH stays well below 3 even after 3 months of moderate use in CLEAN equipment. I have used Starsan since day one and haven't had a problem to this date. A friend used to use iodophor and he started having some challenges about a year ago and switched to Starsan. He wishes he would have switched a long time ago.

 

[Fin-lander]

Ok, so if this is the problem, can I just rinse the heck out of my carboy/other equipment that I have been soaking in possibly a too strong iodophor solution to make them usable? I really need my next batch to come out - it's been a long, expensive, exhausting journey to figure this out. Thanks again guys for the help! I'm def going the Star-san route from here on out - will post results.

FL

 

[Yambor44]

Ok, so if this is the problem, can I just rinse the heck out of my carboy/other equipment that I have been soaking in possibly a too strong iodophor solution to make them usable? I really need my next batch to come out - it's been a long, expensive, exhausting journey to figure this out. Thanks again guys for the help! I'm def going the Star-san route from here on out - will post results.

FL

I myself would do another light duty cleaning on the carboys and rinse well. After that, rinse it with Starsan on brew day and store it upside down or cover with a sanitized rag or some foil if it's upright.

 

[Houblon]

Here is the situation: I brewed quite a few batches at my last place and made lots of fine beer. One day the batches began to go bad, and I had like 5 dumpers in a row - almost quit the hobby. I thought it was sanitation problems and did just about everything except treat my water to no avail. Eventually I moved and built a new system. The beers are all very medicinal - I'm almost positive chlorophenols are to blame.

I bet you have a infection from what you posted.
heres a few links:

http://www.2basnob.com/beer-dictionary.html
Medicinal: A flavor or aroma suggestive of chemical, plastic, smoke, or cloves, usually resulting from wild yeast or sanitizer residue.

http://www.tasteyourbeer.com/researchterms.php
Medicinal: having one or many of these qualities: electrical fire, medicinal, plastic, listerine, band-aid, smoky,unwanted yeast or contamination from microorganisms

http://***********/resources/troubleshooting
Chloraseptic-like or Band-aid-like aroma or flavor (phenolic) * Contamination

 

[boo boo]

I use bleach for cleaning all my glass and plastic fermenting carboys and buckets. Never had any issues using it as I rinse really well with scalding hot water prior to sanitizing it.

I have been doing it this way for the past 5 years.

Key is to really rinse well.

 

[Fin-lander]

I highly doubt an infection, as just about 100% of my system is new. It contains only stainless steel, copper and glass for fermenting. I have scrubbed and soaked with PBW until my fingers bled, followed by several soaks with iodophor - though now I think maybe too much iodophor. I have eliminated water as a source as I treated every drop, and fermented in the low 60's. I never was even close to this careful when I started brewing, and had over 10 great batches. I may have been a bit liberal with the sanitizer to be "extra careful" though this may have been the problem all along! The only 2 variables left to change are the iodophor (or at least the amount I'm using) and my carboy. I've been wrong more than once on this issue, though I'm now putting my money on the overuse of sanitizer. To be continued ...

Thanks again for all of the suggestions!

 

[Yooper]

I didn't see your water source listed- if it's already been posted, I apologize.

It really sounds like a chloramine issue from the water. I wonder if the k-meta treatment is inadequate, or if there is another source of chlorine.

 

[luvhopps]

I had one of my brews come out with a medicinal taste, and it won't clean up. I brewed it back in August and it still tastes like crap. It was the only time I used Nottingham yeast. The yeast was from the lot number that was recalled. Mine have been fine since. That was the culprit for my issue, but I see you have used different yeast. This is a tough one.

 

[Fin-lander]

I didn't see your water source listed- if it's already been posted, I apologize.

It really sounds like a chloramine issue from the water. I wonder if the k-meta treatment is inadequate, or if there is another source of chlorine.

Just standard Lake Michigan tap water via the city of Green Bay. I'll try to post more specifics later tonight. Don't know - I used the k-meta treatment as you described, treated it the night before and let it sit overnight, also as described I treated every drop this way that I used in the brew session.

BTW Yooper, where are you from? I'm a Yooper originally as well - Negaunee area. None of these issues back there that's for sure - just good clean tasting well water!

 

[Yooper]

Just standard Lake Michigan tap water via the city of Green Bay. I'll try to post more specifics later tonight. Don't know - I used the k-meta treatment as you described, treated it the night before and let it sit overnight, also as described I treated every drop this way that I used in the brew session.

BTW Yooper, where are you from? I'm a Yooper originally as well - Negaunee area. None of these issues back there that's for sure - just good clean tasting well water!

It's just that the persistant chlorophenols make me think "water". I'd try one batch using RO or distilled water and getting some salts and building the water from scratch. If you start with distilled water, a few salts can get you to a decent water profile for a simple beer, and see if that corrects the problem. I'd try dry yeast, to rule out any water in a starter. That's all I can think of to help.

I'm from the central UP, right on the WI border.

 

[blackwaterbrewer]

i dont want to start or fuel the war, but, i used iodophor for 3 brews about 6 months ago. in 10 years of brewing beer, these were the only 3 that i dumped. i switched back to easy clean or starsan and was right back on track. could be a combination of your local water and the iodophor. try your next batch with boiling water and easy clean.

 

[jds]

If you're using iodophor at any more than 3 ml / gallon concentration, you're using way too much.

 

[Fin-lander]

Yeah it sure seems to match the "profile" for chlorophenols - very medicinal dry your mouth out bandaid taste. Undrinkable - not in the background, more of a smack you in the face type taste. It also seems to zap any sweetness from the finished brew. I'm just wondering if there exists a iodo-phenol of some type? This would explain a lot. If the water was to blame, there would be people all over the place from the city having troubles - I know the owner of the LHBS, and he hasn't heard of this. He thought maybe too high a fermentation from what I described, but we know this isn't my problem.

 

[-TH-]

I had similar off flavors when I started brewing over a year ago. I tried everything including water, yeast, temp control, AG, and ruling out every single piece of equipment. After 14 batches of bad beer it finally hit me like a ton of bricks that the only thing I hadn't changed was my sanitizer. I was using farm supply iodophor. I had double and triple checked the concentration so I was positive it wasn't too concentrated. Well I switched to Starsan anyways and the last 4 batches haven't even had a hint of the off flavor. I threw away my bottle of TSC iodine and I highly recommend you do the same.

 

[Fin-lander]

I had similar off flavors when I started brewing over a year ago. I tried everything including water, yeast, temp control, AG, and ruling out every single piece of equipment. After 14 batches of bad beer it finally hit me like a ton of bricks that the only thing I hadn't changed was my sanitizer. I was using farm supply iodophor. I had double and triple checked the concentration so I was positive it wasn't too concentrated. Well I switched to Starsan anyways and the last 4 batches haven't even had a hint of the off flavor. I threw away my bottle of TSC iodine and I highly recommend you do the same.

Great info - thanks. I have been using Dineotex (iodophor) from Fleet Farm. I was seduced by the price, as it's about $15 a gallon - I figured it'd last me forever. I know of others who have used it though. Whether it's the concentration I have been using (quite probably) or the interaction with the product and my water, etc, I am switching over to Star-San. I'll definitely post back in a week or 2 as I am also splitting the next batch between 2 fermenters (the old carboy and a new, never used stainless one). If they both come out fine it was the sanitizer. Thanks again to all for all of the advice! Hopefully someone can learn from my misery. I can only immagine 14 bad batches in a row - don't know if I'd have the resolve/willpower for that streak, I'm only on like 6 or 7! Bet that first glass of batch 15 was sweet.

 

[-TH-]

Bet that first glass of batch 15 was sweet.

Words can't even describe it.

Good luck with your battle, it looks like you're on your way to winning it. I'll be watching for the results...

 

[EMPyre]

My old man recently had this happening, only in his cornies. He was using bleach, and getting really strong chlorophenols. Weed killer! Any way we got curious about some of the 'other agents' being loaded into bleach to prevent splashing and increase viscosity and how those were reacting and binding the bleach to surfaces since he had previously used more traditional bleach with no problems. We figured these thickeners were preventing thorough wash away. Anyway a switch to Star-San (Idophor was his previous choice) and everything has been fine since...

 

[TastySalmon]

Personally, I don't think your problem is iodophor. Iodophor doesn't change flavor when bottled. I accidentally forgot to rinse a bottling hose well one time and the first bottle that got filled tasted like, well, iodophor. The rest were fine.

 

[Yambor44]

Personally, I don't think your problem is iodophor. Iodophor doesn't change flavor when bottled. I accidentally forgot to rinse a bottling hose well one time and the first bottle that got filled tasted like, well, iodophor. The rest were fine.

Was your iodophor farm supply iodophor? This seems to be the pattern.

 

[wcr72]

I am having the same problem right now with the plasticy, band-aid off taste and odor. 5 of 16 batches have had this curse. The taste is noticeable about 1-1/2 weeks after bottling and just gets worse. This damn taste doesn't go away either, even 6 months later.

I have moved from Iodophor to StarSan with no luck. Then used RO water for all of my brewing water and just recently had another two batches of swill. I do use tap water to mix with StarSan to sanitize my equipment and generally rinse with tap water.

My next step I guess is to either use Campden tablets in all my water and to try to do an extremely thorough cleaning and sanitizing of all my equipment. I am replacing all my hoses and will report back how the next couple of batches go. It just sucks spending the time and bucks to experiment with.

I keep pretty decent records of my process. The only other common denominator is dry yeast vs. liquid yeast. All 5 bad batches have been dry yeast (5 bad batches out of 11), and have brewed 5 batches of liquid yeast, all with good results.

I'll try to post back over the next couple of months with my results.

 

[davesrose]

You don't say what water supply you're using. As for this sanitizer debate, I guess StarSan is good for eliminating an "ah ha" moment when it comes to improper sanitization. It's harder to gum up the concentrations as it is with Iodophore. My Iodophore bottles have always come with a recommended ppm concentration homebrew suggestion: which has always yeilded great results. 1 teaspoon per 1.5 gallons. I swirl this solution around my carboy and any equipment I'm sanitzing and I don't get any weird smells or tastes. I know some people have said they've used capfulls of the stuff. If you're getting too concentrated with Iodophore then you do have to rinse it with water (it's then a disinfectant and will give you off flavors).

 

[Yambor44]

Another thing to look at for those that use bottling buckets is the spigot on the bucket. You need to take that apart and clean it and sanitize it each time. A friend of mine had a couple of infections and traced it back to this area.

 

[Revvy]

Personally, I don't think your problem is iodophor. Iodophor doesn't change flavor when bottled. I accidentally forgot to rinse a bottling hose well one time and the first bottle that got filled tasted like, well, iodophor. The rest were fine.

Was your iodophor farm supply iodophor? This seems to be the pattern.

I use farm supply Iodophor, have been for nearly three years, and I have absolutely never had an issue with it.

I use it at the concentration of slightly more than 1 tbs/5 gallons, till it is straw color, exactly the same shade that the original BTF-iodophor is at 1 tbs/5 gallons.

At the proper dillution, iodophors will not affect the flavor of beer, regardless of where you buy it from.

The ones available at the farm and fleet are used in the dairy industry that's why you find it at the farm and fleet, so dairy farmers can sanitize their milking equipment and vessels.

And if there was an issue with off flavors with that stuff, do you really believe they would be using it??????

Come on guys, use a little logic here. More than likely the off flavor is from somewhere else.....Besides, iodine based products are not chlorine based products which is usually the cause of bandaid, medicinal flavors. They produce chlorophenols. Not iodines based ones.

 

[-TH-]

I use farm supply Iodophor, have been for nearly three years, and I have absolutely never had an issue with it.

I use it at the concentration of slightly more than 1 tbs/5 gallons, till it is straw color, exactly the same shade that the original BTF-iodophor is at 1 tbs/5 gallons.

At the proper dillution, iodophors will not affect the flavor of beer, regardless of where you buy it from.

The ones available at the farm and fleet are used in the dairy industry that's why you find it at the farm and fleet, so dairy farmers can sanitize their milking equipment and vessels.

And if there was an issue with off flavors with that stuff, do you really believe they would be using it??????

Come on guys, use a little logic here. More than likely the off flavor is from somewhere else.....Besides, iodine based products are not chlorine based products which is usually the cause of bandaid, medicinal flavors. They produce chlorophenols. Not iodines based ones.

What you’re saying makes a lot of sense. Which is why I waited for 14 batches before I suspected my iodophor as the cause of my off flavor. I also realize that many have used iodophor, even the farm fleet kind, without any problems. However, my first 14 batches all had the off flavor and I tried everything – and I mean everything – to fix it (I’ll give you details if you’d like). On batch 14 I dry hopped using a nylon bag that I had sanitized in my iodophor. It was still wet when I put it in the fermentor. That batch had the off flavor so bad that the light bulb instantly went off. So I switched to Starsan for batches 15 through 20 and the off flavor is completely gone, not even a hint left. I’ve changed nothing else.

The iodophor I had been using contained 1% titrable iodine. To make a gallon of 12.5 PPM iodophor from 1% titrable iodine, I used 12.5/1,000,000 x 100 x 768 tsp/gal = 0.96 tsp/gal (or 1 tsp/gal). It was labeled as a disinfectant for animal wounds (not for disinfecting milk equipment). I bought it at TSC. The bottle looked like this:

Maybe the other 99% of the ingredients are different than the one you’re using, I don’t know. I emailed the company and they wouldn’t tell me what they are. Maybe I left my equipment too “wet” (which would be like using too high a concentration of iodophor if you think about it, right?). What I do know is that you will never ever ever convince me to use it again. Is it the cause of the OP’s problem? Maybe not. But I thought it was worth sharing my experience.

 

[Revvy]

What you’re saying makes a lot of sense. Which is why I waited for 14 batches before I suspected my iodophor as the cause of my off flavor. I also realize that many have used iodophor, even the farm fleet kind, without any problems. However, my first 14 batches all had the off flavor and I tried everything – and I mean everything – to fix it (I’ll give you details if you’d like). On batch 14 I dry hopped using a nylon bag that I had sanitized in my iodophor. It was still wet when I put it in the fermentor. That batch had the off flavor so bad that the light bulb instantly went off. So I switched to Starsan for batches 15 through 20 and the off flavor is completely gone, not even a hint left. I’ve changed nothing else.

The iodophor I had been using contained 1% titrable iodine. To make a gallon of 12.5 PPM iodophor from 1% titrable iodine, I used 12.5/1,000,000 x 100 x 768 tsp/gal = 0.96 tsp/gal (or 1 tsp/gal). It was labeled as a disinfectant for animal wounds (not for disinfecting milk equipment). I bought it at TSC. The bottle looked like this:

Maybe the other 99% of the ingredients are different than the one you’re using, I don’t know. I emailed the company and they wouldn’t tell me what they are. Maybe I left my equipment too “wet” (which would be like using too high a concentration of iodophor if you think about it, right?). What I do know is that you will never ever ever convince me to use it again. Is it the cause of the OP’s problem? Maybe not. But I thought it was worth sharing my experience.

That's nearly exactly the brand I use, except mine's made by Dionne...Like I said, I've got no issues from it.

 

[Houblon]

I'll say it again:

I bet you have a infection from what you posted.
heres a few links:

http://www.2basnob.com/beer-dictionary.html
Medicinal: A flavor or aroma suggestive of chemical, plastic, smoke, or cloves, usually resulting from wild yeast or sanitizer residue.

http://www.tasteyourbeer.com/researchterms.php
Medicinal: having one or many of these qualities: electrical fire, medicinal, plastic, listerine, band-aid, smoky,unwanted yeast or contamination from microorganisms

http://***********/resources/troubleshooting
Chloraseptic-like or Band-aid-like aroma or flavor (phenolic) * Contamination