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Redpappy
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As @william_shakes_beer asked, if doing multi step mash can you go high to low? Will it actually work.
Mash Temps importance
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Redpappy
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If you don’t mind me asking, what pump did you get? Do you have the return hose connected to a side port in the kettle?
as far as strike water, I go off of beer smith, which usually has me about 4-5 degrees higher than what I need. From all the info given, seems like what I need is better insulation, to hold temp better.
Once my water is up to temp, before I start putting my grains in, i stir. If my temp falls to low, I wait till it rises up again.
I havE a spike 10g Kettle. I will admit on one brew, I got lazy And not cover my kettle, my temp was going all over the place.
Given it seems when Nature created the key (alpha and beta) enzymes She screwed up their respective effective temperature ranges and got them backwards that's probably the most common question asked wrt mash strategies.
Unfortunately, no, it doesn't work out well, as energizing the debranching enzyme croaks the snipping enzyme...
Cheers!
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Redpappy
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So if I understand correctly, alpha enzymes will turn into betta enzymes.. ie... Non-fermentable sugars turn into fermentable sugars. So in which case 6ou need to go from beta to alpha.
The enzymes do not change (aside from denaturalizing) - they do not transition from "branchers" to "snippers". Ie: Alpha The Brancher never becomes Beta The Snipper or vice versa.
https://byo.com/article/understanding-enzymes-homebrew-science/
Cheers!
https://byo.com/article/understanding-enzymes-homebrew-science/
Cheers!
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Redpappy
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unfortantly, I’m a little to tipsy to read the article fully to understand,
but for the simple version as I would put it, that is why most go at 152f, you will get both alpha and beta( more beta than alpha), in which you should, get an average of 1.012 FG, wher if you go to 156F you should get about 1.020 FG.
"Coulds", "shoulds" and "woulds" are also depended on the grist, but yes, if you go back to the 2nd post in this thread, the graphic provides guidance that correlates fairly well with your perception - aside from the actual FGs...
Cheers!
Cheers!
Alpha is not a "de-branching" enzyme. It can cut poly-glucose chains between branches, but it cannot cut the branching bond. Cutting between branches does expose new ends that beta can work on.
There is a de-branching enzyme, and that is "limit dextrinase." Limit dextrinase can cut the branch bonds, which makes even more non-branching bonds available for alpha and beta to work on, as neither alpha or beta can cut bonds close to branches.
It is my belief that it is really limit dextrinase that is responsible for the higher fermentability of mashes done at lower temperatures, as it is the only one that can reduce the amount of limit dextrins, which are non-fermentable, in the final wort. Alpha and beta in combination, as well as alpha alone - given enough time, can reduce the wort to fermentable sugars and limit dextrins, but neither can reduce the level of limit dextrins. Limit dextrinase has a useful temperature range slightly lower than beta amylase, and denatures slightly faster at the same temperatures.
Brew on
"de-branching" may not have been the best literal word choice...but I think you know what I meant...
Cheers!
Cheers!
I prefer step mashes dough in low at 80, 129 Protein 20 min, 147 for 60-90, 154 for 30 and let it sag back to 147 for 30. I prefer a drier beer.
william_shakes_beer
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What we need is a movie through a microscope showing the action of the enzymes. The ultmate beer porn 
What we need is a movie through a microscope showing the action of the enzymes. The ultmate beer porn
i don't think there's a microscope that powerful!
There are, but I don't think you could recreate mash conditions in them, or get videos of things happening in real time.
Brew on
When we see images of microscopic bugs from an electron microscope, what they don't tell us is: the bugs are dead, they have to be dead.
Reading all this got me thinking, I go BIAB and usually mash for 90 mins as I read elsewhere it was beneficial and whatnot.
Lately I been running iodine tests at the 60 min mark and have always gotten full conversion by that point.
Is there any point in keeping the mash going after the iodine test says its ok , or am I just wasting my time??
Lately I been running iodine tests at the 60 min mark and have always gotten full conversion by that point.
Is there any point in keeping the mash going after the iodine test says its ok , or am I just wasting my time??
Holden Caulfield
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If your mash temperature is below 149 the Beta Amylase will continue to create maltose making your wort more fermentable and drying out your beer. Above 150, there will still be some Beta activity, but it will be significantly reduced.
McKnuckle
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The simple answer is that yes, there is benefit to longer mashes even after conversion is supposedly complete. Besides the continuation of beta activity as noted above, there's that whole flavor part! The mash is your only chance to get that. So don't cut corners there timewise. Many, if not most, traditional breweries employ at least a 90-120 minute mash (I'm talking about our European friends here).
@Holden Caulfield
That makes a lot of sense actually, but got me thinking if that "residual" beta-amylase activity is significative and worth spending 30 minutes more waiting for.
Figure most of the maltose would be broken up in the first 60 mins , would there be enough left after that to make a discernible difference?
Edit: Will try to brew 2 batches of the same recipe this weekend (a smash pale ale wth arg-cascade) with 60 and 90 mashes to answer this for myself , call it a mini-exbeeriment if you wish.
That makes a lot of sense actually, but got me thinking if that "residual" beta-amylase activity is significative and worth spending 30 minutes more waiting for.
Figure most of the maltose would be broken up in the first 60 mins , would there be enough left after that to make a discernible difference?
Edit: Will try to brew 2 batches of the same recipe this weekend (a smash pale ale wth arg-cascade) with 60 and 90 mashes to answer this for myself , call it a mini-exbeeriment if you wish.
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Redpappy
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Please let us know how it ends up. I for one would like to hear the results.
Do 3 batches, one at 30 minutes, one at 60, and one at 90. Do the iodine test on all 3, then check the gravity of each, then at the end of the fermentation check gravity again. Then do a taste test. Then get a few of your friends to do a "blind taste test" to see if they can decide which beer was the 90 minute mash.
Holden Caulfield
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Beta amylase makes maltose by biting off individual molecules off the ends of the starch molecules, so I wouldn't think about it as "maltose would be broken up" For the most part more maltose can always be made as long as there is active Beta Amylase. This is why below 149 you can make very dry beers by mashing longer because the Beta Amylase works longer. However, as you go below 149, the mash often needs to be extended beyond 60 mins to fully convert because the Alpha Amylase begins to work very slowly as well as the Beta.
Mash temperature and time are the levers you have to manipulate the fermentability of the wort and body of your beer. At the extremes, for single infusions, you can mash high and short (158 for 45 mins) and produce beer with higher finishing gravity, more body, maybe sweeter or you can mash low and long (143 for 120 mins) and produce beer with lower finishing gravity, thinner mouthfeel, maybe less sweet. It is up to you based on your target beer.
Step mashes, where multiple temperature rests are deployed, are often used by advanced brewers as it allows them even greater control over the beta and alpha amylase enzymes, enabling them to really hit their target beer profiles
chaps
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I got this one:
bayite BYT-7A015 DC 12V Solar Hot Water Heater Circulation Pump https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01G305PK0/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_XzbFFb5NYNH8R
I’ve had it about six months and it’s worked admirably through all my mistakes. I was impressed by how much wort it can move. I have to cycle the pump as it literally pumps faster than my basket drains. Granted I’m a GF brewer but still.
My kettle doesn’t have a side port so I just loop the out hose up and into the basket. It seems to work well and as long as I’m vaguely involved temps stay in a range of about 5F which is plenty good enough for me.
This thread has got me thinking about mash temps again. Given I want a very dry beer for a light colored recipe (IPA or Pilsner) at a target 6.0 ABV, what would be the preferred mash for 90 minutes?
A) 152 for entire mash
B) 147 for x minutes then 156 for remaining
C) 156 then let it naturally drop with the lid off and recirculation
I have tried A and B but didn’t notice much. I wish I had time to do a side by side but that is a long brew day with a single setup. I don’t have a controller but will do a single step manually if needed.
Also I tried to dough in quickly to bring down the water temp quickly to mash temp. Is there any appreciable denaturing in dough in that one should be concerned with?
A) 152 for entire mash
B) 147 for x minutes then 156 for remaining
C) 156 then let it naturally drop with the lid off and recirculation
I have tried A and B but didn’t notice much. I wish I had time to do a side by side but that is a long brew day with a single setup. I don’t have a controller but will do a single step manually if needed.
Also I tried to dough in quickly to bring down the water temp quickly to mash temp. Is there any appreciable denaturing in dough in that one should be concerned with?
VikeMan
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We don't have all the details of your contemplated recipe, but I can offer that I recently used the following mash schedule and got significantly higher attenuation than I was expecting, and about 4% higher than I would have (probably) got with a 75 minute mash at 151F. I don't do a lot of step mashes (this was for a clone project), but I would have to call this a pretty attenuable schedule:
As I've said before, it's the mash time that matters most. A 90-minute mash is very good at any temperature, but if you want it super dry, you could go 120 minutes or more. Your choice.
I would pick a temperature of 150 F. It's a nice round number, and very forgiving if your temperature measurements are just a few degrees off in either direction. If you want to try your option C and let the temperature drop a bit, maybe start closer to 153-154 F then let it fall from there, even falling into the low 140s or upper 130s would not be the end of the world. I have been there; I have done that. Still get good beer out of it.
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Redpappy
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Well hell.....I might have solved part of my issue... So today I brewed up a light ale. Due to this issues that I have noticed, reason for me starting this thread. This time around I decided not to trust my controller, and went with my ink bird digital thermometer , as well as my floating thermometer .
Setup is is EBIAB with a spike 10G Kettle.I use a Cube Controller.
Once my mash temp hit 158, it was time to dough in, First thing I did, was stirred my water really well Cube was reading 156F, I threw my Float Them. in and stuck my instant read thermometer, My float was reading 148, and the probe was reading 150. I turned up the heat from 152, up to 157, and starting putting my grains in. Kept stirring until the instant probe reached 152. Covered the kettle, and let it sit. After I pulled the bag, Cube was reading 148, probe was 144, float read 146( guessing because of the depth or the spot that I was checking).
After I finished with my brew I wanted to check my thermometers, so after doing some research I did a test to check my thermometers, Both the instant read and floating checked out good (read 32F)
I have come to the conclusion, my issue has been bad temp readings from the start. Here I am thinking I am started at 152, but was starting at 148 or lower.
I didn't really want to go down this road, but now I am thinking I need to, just to keep myself happy, which is to get a pump and do recirculation to help maintain a better mash temp, and hell, minus well start whirl pooling, so i'm looking into getting a MK2 pump.
For my brew day, I actually increased my efficiency a little (I hit 74.5%, normally i am 68-70%) So i am wondering if I have just been mashing in to low of temp due to the error in my reading on my controller. Hopefully I will hit my FG numbers.
Setup is is EBIAB with a spike 10G Kettle.I use a Cube Controller.
Once my mash temp hit 158, it was time to dough in, First thing I did, was stirred my water really well Cube was reading 156F, I threw my Float Them. in and stuck my instant read thermometer, My float was reading 148, and the probe was reading 150. I turned up the heat from 152, up to 157, and starting putting my grains in. Kept stirring until the instant probe reached 152. Covered the kettle, and let it sit. After I pulled the bag, Cube was reading 148, probe was 144, float read 146( guessing because of the depth or the spot that I was checking).
After I finished with my brew I wanted to check my thermometers, so after doing some research I did a test to check my thermometers, Both the instant read and floating checked out good (read 32F)
I have come to the conclusion, my issue has been bad temp readings from the start. Here I am thinking I am started at 152, but was starting at 148 or lower.
I didn't really want to go down this road, but now I am thinking I need to, just to keep myself happy, which is to get a pump and do recirculation to help maintain a better mash temp, and hell, minus well start whirl pooling, so i'm looking into getting a MK2 pump.
For my brew day, I actually increased my efficiency a little (I hit 74.5%, normally i am 68-70%) So i am wondering if I have just been mashing in to low of temp due to the error in my reading on my controller. Hopefully I will hit my FG numbers.
Nubiwan
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I am interested to see if anyone has ever bothered to take the same grain bill, and mash it separately at maybe 148, 152 and 158 and been able to report a significant difference in the taste.
If you have, then i am very interested to see your results.
I suggest few have done this side by side, because who really has the time, and that few would be able to taste an appreciable difference in any event.
If you have, then i am very interested to see your results.
I suggest few have done this side by side, because who really has the time, and that few would be able to taste an appreciable difference in any event.
The best way to tell if your mash technique is working properly is by the practical means of calculating your extraction yield efficiency from the grain, which is automatically done by most all-grain beer calculators. If you are getting somewhere around 85% efficiency, then everything is as expected. For example, supposing you are using a certain combination of malts, which should be expected to yield (on average, according to a calculator) a Specific Gravity of 1037 in your collected wort before boiling. The calculator might quote a maximum expected SG of, say, 1041 and an average yield of 1037. If you are getting at least an average yield then your mash is performing as it should. If your value is significantly below the average, then time to investigate further.
I do the opposite from you. I have a fan oven which I keep at about 160°F and my lidded, metal mash bin fits perfectly in there. The temperature of the mash is initially about 140°F after strike. So over an hour or so, the temperature gradually rises towards 160°F. No stirring needed. I get around 90% extraction efficiency from that setup. Nothing can get denatured in that way before it does its job.
I do the opposite from you. I have a fan oven which I keep at about 160°F and my lidded, metal mash bin fits perfectly in there. The temperature of the mash is initially about 140°F after strike. So over an hour or so, the temperature gradually rises towards 160°F. No stirring needed. I get around 90% extraction efficiency from that setup. Nothing can get denatured in that way before it does its job.
There's a lot if ways to make beer.
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Nubiwan
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Its how i make all my brews lately. I dont care to control mash temps at all. I heat to high 150s or 160, add my grain and then go do some household chores. Pop back in once in a while and stir up my grains. Depending on time of year, my temp may drop to 148 in about 90 mins. Sometimes might just be an hour. Not really reverse step mashing, rather just letting it coold down by itself.
I typically get decent efficiency in my BIAB setup, and my FGs often drop below 1.010. Somewill say thats going to be a thin beer, but i dont really have anything to compare to, one batch at a time, and my brew all taste pretty good to me.
The main caveat in this techique, or lack thereof, as i see it, is the ability to reproduce the same beer twice, and / or consistency.
Its my belief that these things matter more to folks who sell lots of beer comercially. That for a homebrewer, wanting to KISS (keep it simple) then my advice is dont sweat the mash temp..... within 158-145. I invite anyone to tell me how they know it makes a difference, a great difference in taste that is,if they've always maintained 152 degrees when they brew.
I think it verging on a myth. Trying to maintain consistent mash temps. Willing to see anecdotal evidence to the contrary. A ploy to make you buy needless hardware. Blankets and toys etc.
Dancy
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@Nubiwan - I sincerely think its great you’re happy with your process and the outcome of yours beer. However, I hope you aren’t suggesting that people who are particular about their mash temps cannot tell the difference in their results or that it is “all in their head”, so to speak. I think there are people on the forum who brew at a high level (higher than you AND me) who can make those distinctions and I respect that and try to learn something from those folks. I also respect your process Simply because YOU are satisfied with it.
Nubiwan
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I think there is enough anecdotal evidence to suggest you let your mash temp swing 3-5 degrees then the affect on taste is indistinguishable. If you mash a beer recipe at 154 one week and 150 the next, then given all the other variables that can change, youll get pretty much the same beer. Attempting to maintain it within a half degree. Is it necesssary? People spend a lot of money to acheive this, and alot of energy worrying about it.
There is similar evidence suggests a beer mashed in the 140s is fuller bodied and has better mouth feel than the same beer brewed at 162, which is somehow counter intuitive to the general consensus. So what is to be believed?
The point of what i do is that you can make a perfectly decent beer with little to no control over the mash temp. Even letting it swing 10 plus degrees.
Whos to say what i do isnt the optimal way? I could argue i am getting benefits of both alpha and beta amylase in my resulting efficiency and lower FG. People advocate step mashing on the way up. Perhaps I am doing something similar in reverse.
I believe beer making can be a much simpler process than people make it out. That you can make just as good a beer on a stove top as they do in 3 vessel systems, and indeed many breweries.
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VikeMan
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Just to be clear, fermentability of the wort, thus attenuation, thus FG and ABV, will be different. So it won't be the same beer. But, if the difference isn't important to the brewer, that's fine.
A lot of brewers focus a lot on numbers. But what really matters to the drinker / consumer / ME is not the numbers, but how it actually tastes. If it tastes great either way, why should we care about numbers.
Beauty is truly in the eye, or in this case the hand & mouth, of the beerholder.
madscientist451
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I feel a Brulosphy Exbeeriment coming on here, mash one beer at 151F and another at 154f and see if tasters can pick out the different beer in a triangle test?
That's been done. And no they couldn't reliably tell a difference in a short range (not that this is saying much, pretty anecdotal):
https://brulosophy.com/2016/08/22/t...eme-temperature-variance-exbeeriment-results/
Comparing the extremes of mash temps was a little more interesting:
https://brulosophy.com/2018/08/13/mash-temperature-147f-64c-vs-164-73c-exbeeriment-results/
Dancy
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You put it perfectly, IMO. Commercial brewers MUST focus on numbers for high consistency and, more importantly, profitability. I confess I care about numbers to a degree only because I want to have some predictability— I’m still very much learning.
Nubiwan
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Ah yes indeed, ABV and gravities might well change, but how easily would a home brewer distinguish it in taste? I suggest the anecdotal evidence (again) suggests few people, if any can tell.
Surely, it is only a brewery, making hundreds of thousands of bottles of beer, that is requird to maintain a strict regimen around process, in order to keep taste consistent.
Perhaps those folks want to enter competitions probably do too. The rest of us.......
Nubiwan
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They did do a porter at extreme temps lately, and while they never had a panel of tasters (due to COVID), the brewer did blind test himself, and picked out the different beer nearly every time. What was telling is that he did in fact think the lower temp beer had better body and mouthfeel, which rather flies in the face of the "generally accepted principals of brewing" does it not?
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VikeMan
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Why was that "telling?" It's one taster. No more and no less valid an observation than any other one random person's observation. The fact that this guy made the observation as a byproduct of a Brulosophy experiment doesn't lend weight.
Let's face it; you can find anecdotes that contradict any "generally accepted principle." You can find anecdotes that contradict well established science. (How many people think you can heat a whole room to comfortable temperatures in winter with 4 tea candles and a flower pot?) But if you're going to expect to overturn these generally accepted principles, bring evidence. The burden of proof is on the challenger. And the more extraordinary the claim, the more evidence is needed.
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