can i mimic corn or rice adjunct by lowering my mash temps

[fluketamer]

i have had various results searching for this answer with most agreeing that lowering my mash temps will lead to a drier beer.

i like adding a pound of corn to my lagers to dry them out. when i leave out the corn i get a more german/ european heavier beer.

the additional corn can be expen$ive in the bill. but it definatley gives me a crispness that i have trouble getting without it.

will lowering the temps give me that similar crisp and how low can i go. again i got very varying answers in the searches.
my last beer i mashed at 152. i get a little scared that if i go too low i wont convert.

 

[Deadalus]

It's fine to go down to 148. That produces a lighter bodied beer (more alcohol) and ferments more than say at 156 which produces a fuller body (less alcohol). Beersmith uses 152 for a medium bodied beer. I find the difference in alcohol content is not too different but enough that I slightly change my brewhouse efficiency to compensate if I change the mash temperature. That helps me to dial in my original gravity. I don't often change the mash temp for a specific recipe to really zero in on the changes. I usually brew to a style and pick the mash temp based on the style so its not something I change from iteration to iteration too often for a specific recipe but I have noticed that I come in a little under estimated original gravity for my heavy bodied beers when using 156F. Other factors at play of course depending on the grain bill. If you are using a recipe calculator you could perhaps run the recipe with the corn and then take it out and substitute another pound of grain to see the effect on the estimated gravity. That would be for a fixed mash temperature.

I am not sure all the above directly translates to "crispness", but lowering the temp (within the range of (148-156) will ferment more leaving fewer unfermentables hence the body is lighter.

Also, temperature variation during the mash can muddy the waters. Harder to tell determine temperature effects if you are skipping around +/- a few degrees.

 

[doug293cz]

You can go lower in mash temp to reduce the amount of dextrins left in the final wort. This is due to the action of the "limit dextrinase" enzyme, which hydrolyses the branching bonds in amylopectin starch molecules. Dextrins are non-fermentable sugars, so reducing the quantity left in the wort increases the fermentability of the wort. Limit dextrinase denatures more easily than alpha or beta amylase, so needs lower temperatures to achieve significant action during the mash.

Amylase and dextrinase enzymes work at below room temperatures. If they didn't, then seeds would not germinate and grow. But at lower temperatures, things happen much more slowly, so if mashing lower than 148°F, you will most likely need to extend your mash time to get complete conversion. Complete conversion is necessary if you want the most fermentable wort. You can determine when you have complete conversion by measuring the SG of the wort in the mash. The mash must be well stirred and the wort fully homogenized prior to taking an SG sample, or you could get anomalously high or low readings. A refractometer is especially useful for taking mid mash SG readings. You can either mash until the SG stops increasing (sampling say every 15 minutes after the first hour), or use the table found here to see when your wort reaches the maximum possible SG.

You might need to mash for two hours, or longer when mashing at lower temps.

Brew on

 

[dmtaylor]

You don't need to decrease the temperature. You might benefit much more from a longer mash, regardless of exact temperature. Try mashing for several hours, or overnight (8-12 hours) or even longer. This will result in a very dry crisp beer no matter the temperature.

You can of course also play with different yeast strains. The average attenuations of different yeasts are all over the board.

 

[mac_1103]

So FWIW... apparently I missed my strike temp pretty badly on my last brew and consequently wound up doing an unintended (and kinda weird) step mash. 136F for around 15 minutes until I realized my mistake and then maybe another 5-10 to get it up to 152 where it stayed for another hour and change. It wound up fermenting from 1.060 to 1.010 with S-04 and the FG sample did taste pretty thin and dry, maybe even sorta crisp. Looks like I may have invented a new style (brown ipa?), but I don't think it's likely to catch on.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

So FWIW... apparently I missed my strike temp pretty badly on my last brew and consequently wound up doing an unintended (and kinda weird) step mash. 136F for around 15 minutes until I realized my mistake and then maybe another 5-10 to get it up to 152 where it stayed for another hour and change. It wound up fermenting from 1.060 to 1.010 with S-04 and the FG sample did taste pretty thin and dry, maybe even sorta crisp. Looks like I may have invented a new style (brown ipa?), but I don't think it's likely to catch on.

Brown IPA is covered in the guidelines unless you mean brown brut IPA .

 

[mac_1103]

Brown IPA is covered in the guidelines unless you mean brown brut IPA

I had no idea. Or maybe I did mean brown brut. We'll see what happens when it's carbed up, but I have a feeling it's going to wind up tasting more like a pale Guinness than anything else.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled mash temp discussion.

 

[fluketamer]

thanks for replies guys

my last kolsch i mashed low at 152 for 90 minutes.

it started at 1044. its at 1012 now but struggling to go any lower.

 

[doug293cz]

You don't need to decrease the temperature. You might benefit much more from a longer mash, regardless of exact temperature. Try mashing for several hours, or overnight (8-12 hours) or even longer. This will result in a very dry crisp beer no matter the temperature.

You can of course also play with different yeast strains. The average attenuations of different yeasts are all over the board.

I don't believe this to be true. If you start mashing too high, and denature the limit dextrinase, there is nothing more mash time can do to reduce the alpha limit dextrins to fermentable sugars.

More mash time can insure that you have completely gelatinized and hydrolyzed the starch to alpha limit dextrins and fermentable sugars, if and only if, your mash didn't already do this in your "normal" mash time. To reduce the amount of residual alpha limit dextrins (and convert them to fermentable sugar), you need more time with limit dextrinase active.

Brew on

 

[mashdar]

thanks for replies guys

my last kolsch i mashed low at 152 for 90 minutes.

it started at 1044. its at 1012 now but struggling to go any lower.

Assuming hydrometer, have you checked the calibration? What yeast?

 

[fluketamer]

Assuming hydrometer, have you checked the calibration? What yeast?

calibrated ispindel. ill admit it might be a little gunked up with kreusen which may be preventing it from getting lower but it looks like its trending toward comlpetion as the slope of the curve is much flatter in the last few days.

its lallemand kolsch koln yeast

it looks and smells great i was just hoping to get a little more alcohol out of it. right now its 4.13

 

[Malticulous]

I've heard of some people putting beano in the mash (or was it the fermenter?) I have no desire to clone bud light.

 

[mashdar]

calibrated ispindel. ill admit it might be a little gunked up with kreusen which may be preventing it from getting lower but it looks like its trending toward comlpetion as the slope of the curve is much flatter in the last few days.

its lallemand kolsch koln yeast

it looks and smells great i was just hoping to get a little more alcohol out of it. right now its 4.13


View attachment 844109

I've heard that those are good for tracking progress, but less good at accurately determining FG. I have no experience, though. Maybe you're actually a touch lower?

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

If you start mashing too high, and denature the limit dextrinase

Is the denaturing temperature similar to beta amylase? Beta amylase denatures @ 149-150F (65C), prolonged rests above this temperature will reduce or eliminate beta amylase activity, possibly reducing the fermentability of the wort and seemingly the crispiness of the beer.

The other thing that can increase or decrease the beer's finish is pH. Yeasts that have a lower finishing pH can make the finish crisp. Higher finish pH can lead to a flabby or dull finish.

 

[mac_1103]

Is the denaturing temperature similar to beta amylase?

Maybe a touch lower. And a much more important contributor to fermentability than alpha or beta.

 

[HighVoltageMan!]

Maybe a touch lower. And a much more important contributor to fermentability than alpha or beta.

Thank you!

Edit: After reading the paper, it seems to reinforce the idea that 144-145F at a pH of 5.4 (20C) produces the most fermentable wort. It's a good geeky read.

 

[mac_1103]

de nada

 

[doug293cz]

Maybe a touch lower. And a much more important contributor to fermentability than alpha or beta.

Now why does this paper look familiar?

Brew on

 

[RM-MN]

i have had various results searching for this answer with most agreeing that lowering my mash temps will lead to a drier beer.

i like adding a pound of corn to my lagers to dry them out. when i leave out the corn i get a more german/ european heavier beer.

the additional corn can be expen$ive in the bill. but it definatley gives me a crispness that i have trouble getting without it.

will lowering the temps give me that similar crisp and how low can i go. again i got very varying answers in the searches.
my last beer i mashed at 152. i get a little scared that if i go too low i wont convert.

Just how cheap are you?

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Quaker-Y...QpSAidae8ck7dZZWKcs52zSmnhQ_RKhBoCRF8QAvD_BwE

Put it in one of your girlfriend's nylons and tie the end shut before you dump it in the mash so it doesn't clog the drain of the tun.

If you don't like the taste that corn imparts, rice can do the same job without the taste.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Minute-I...KAWG1nDivhDkUnlZb1DzG6_5OFIwGK8xoCQk4QAvD_BwE

 

[fluketamer]

maybe

Just how cheap are you?

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Quaker-Y...QpSAidae8ck7dZZWKcs52zSmnhQ_RKhBoCRF8QAvD_BwE

Put it in one of your girlfriend's nylons and tie the end shut before you dump it in the mash so it doesn't clog the drain of the tun.

If you don't like the taste that corn imparts, rice can do the same job without the taste.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Minute-I...KAWG1nDivhDkUnlZb1DzG6_5OFIwGK8xoCQk4QAvD_BwE

the wife would def get upset using the girlfriends stockings

i like the taste of corn - thanks
ill try it

i have also heard of using grits but that might be more expensive than flaked corn

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, grits require cooking before adding to the mash where flaked corn does not...

Cheers!