Maris Otter Substitute For Extract

[stylus1274]

I have an in-house brown ale all grain recipe I like to periodically brew. However this time around I'm converting to extract for personal purposes.

Maris Otter is my base grain malt. I know Muntons makes a liquid Maris Otter. But I am unable to use that.

I understand MO is unique, but can anyone suggest a 'good enough' substitute?

Below are the ingredients for the recipe if it matters:

Maris Otter
Crystal 120
Carafa II
Chocolate Malt
Kent Goldings
Wyeast 1028

 

[Lefou]

If using liquid malt extract, I'd use a lighter extract to compensate for darkening. Munton's makes an amber extract and Briess sells a Sparkling Amber LME.
Amber dry extract might also work. If the color rating isn't to your preference, Briess also makes a 100% Pale Ale malt extract in both dry and liquid forms that would fit the bill, but not sure if that is available for you to purchase locally. My LBHS has a good stock of ingredients, but unfortunately, doesn't carry a full line of products.
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CBWPaleAleLME.pdf

 

[flars]

Can you use the Maris Otter LME available at Northern Brewer?

 

[stylus1274]

Can you use the Maris Otter LME available at Northern Brewer?

I probably could but don't want to. I prefer DME. I'm convinced that an extract brew with nothing but LME gives you that infamous twang taste.

 

[chickypad]

If you want dry I'd follow Lefou's advice and go with the Briess Pale ale DME. Since no one seems to make MO dry extract the next closest thing would be American pale ale malt I'd say.

 

[flars]

deleted

 

[stylus1274]

Briess Pale it will be then

 

[Lefou]

Just in case you didn't catch it, here's a .pdf link for the Briess DME. I posted the LME .pdf not knowing you'd prefer dry extract.
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CBWPaleAleDME.pdf

 

[stylus1274]

Just in case you didn't catch it, here's a .pdf link for the Briess DME. I posted the LME .pdf not knowing you'd prefer dry extract.
http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CBWPaleAleDME.pdf

Thank you Lefou

 

[madscientist451]

I probably could but don't want to. I prefer DME. I'm convinced that an extract brew with nothing but LME gives you that infamous twang taste.

I've done some all LME extract experiments and my results weren't very good.
But that doesn't mean you shouldn't use ANY LME.
What about some Marris Otter LME, some DME pale malt and then do a mini-mash with your specialty grains?
I've done some extract experiments to see if I can do some quick brews, but I prefer to just go ahead and skip the extract brews and stick with all grain, the beer just seems much better.

 

[stylus1274]

I've done some all LME extract experiments and my results weren't very good.
But that doesn't mean you shouldn't use ANY LME.
What about some Marris Otter LME, some DME pale malt and then do a mini-mash with your specialty grains?
I've done some extract experiments to see if I can do some quick brews, but I prefer to just go ahead and skip the extract brews and stick with all grain, the beer just seems much better.

I'm an AG guy too. But lately it's a time thing. Either I brew extract or I don't brew.

The three places I order from do not have Maris Otter extract. I know it can be obtained elsewhere but I don't want to go elsewhere. So I'm working on a substitute.

 

[Lefou]

Thanks, hope the pale ale DME works out for you.
I've gotten away from LME myself and whatever's left over is going strictly for yeast starters. I find extract expensive and being an El Cheapo, going to grain has been good to my wallet.

 

[dcbw]

Go with pale DME and then maybe a pound of Munich DME to make up for the MO loss? Obviously it's not the same, but you'll be missing something by not using MO. Might as well make it up with a small amount something else.

 

[chickypad]

I don't know about that. Munich has a very distinctive taste that is not like MO to me. On the other hand I have subbed domestic pale ale malt (not talking the lighter kilned 2 row) for MO in recipes. IMO it would be very difficult to tell the difference in a brown ale.

 

[dcbw]

Yeah, clearly Munich isn't MO. Just thinking a small amount of something else might be useful. They don't make too many kinds of DME unfortunately.

Another option might be steeping a pound of Vienna along with your other steeping grains to get a bit of that biscuit/cracker that MO has a touch of. Might not be enough to matter though.

 

[madscientist451]

I find extract expensive and being an El Cheapo, going to grain has been good to my wallet.

I'm a cheapskate too, and sometimes after my wort is all run off my mash, I'll add 3 more gallons of water to the grain, boil that down and then add about 1/3 a container of LME at the end of the boil. Throw in some homegrown hops and re-pitch a saison yeast and I've got a pretty cheap brew. The cost would be about $3 for 2 gallons? This works better when making a big beer, I can usually get a "second runnings" gravity of 1.030 after the first beer is run off. Its actually probably cheaper to just start off with new grain and not buy the LME.
Sorry about going off topic, but back to the OP question:
If you're making an extract brew you have to compromise on what your final results are going to be. If you are going to narrow down what extract your NOT going to use, that's another compromise.
Can you get a UK pale malt extract at your LHBS? That might be closer to what you are trying to achieve.

 

[stylus1274]

Can you get a UK pale malt extract at your LHBS? That might be closer to what you are trying to achieve.

I wish my LHBS had it. They are lacking on items in general.

 

[ericbw]

I think Pale Ale is Briess' answer to Maris Otter/British ale styles - same Lovibond nutty, rich, malty, etc.

To further avoid the alleged "twang," steep your specialty grains, start the boil, and then add a portion of the DME. Add the remaining DME with 10 minutes left in the boil.

Are you going extract to save time? Just curious about your reasons. I love doing all grain, but sometimes I use extract because it shaves a couple of hours off the brew day. (I usually use Golden Light or Pilsen DME, sometimes LME, and then build up the rest with specialty grains. I've never used any of the darker extracts.)

 

[kh54s10]

If you really want Maris Otter you are going to have to use some Maris Otter. You might combine the MO LME with Pale DME to lessen the "Twang" Though I brewed 4 extract kits when I started brewing 6 years ago that used LME and I detected no twang. In fact I would place one of them in my top ten of 93 batches.

For the beer you are talking about - A brown ale - the darker malts are going to overpower the flavor of MO anyway so any light DME will be fine. The difference between Light DME and Maris Otter LME would be minimal at best in a brown ale.

 

[stylus1274]

I think Pale Ale is Briess' answer to Maris Otter/British ale styles - same Lovibond nutty, rich, malty, etc.

To further avoid the alleged "twang," steep your specialty grains, start the boil, and then add a portion of the DME. Add the remaining DME with 10 minutes left in the boil.

Are you going extract to save time? Just curious about your reasons. I love doing all grain, but sometimes I use extract because it shaves a couple of hours off the brew day. (I usually use Golden Light or Pilsen DME, sometimes LME, and then build up the rest with specialty grains. I've never used any of the darker extracts.)

With all the extract I do I do a small portion for the full boil then add the remainder at flame out. Helps with like you said the twang but also with hop utilization. Plus I hate stoping mid-boil to add extract

Time is a factor but truth be told I'm actually opening a LHBS. So I'm mad brewing my recipes as extract kits for testing. We will have our 'own' kits so it's important they don't suck lol

 

[Lefou]

I wish my LHBS had it. They are lacking on items in general.

There are two outlets I usually frequent. Both have excellent LME choices, but DME is lacking. Pilsner, Golden light, amber, and dark are the only DME alternatives. Brand selection is mostly domestic, though I do see Muntons occasionally. Both are small warehouse operations and their business models cover different markets. One is a brew on premises and the other runs a good online service business, one of the best in NJ.

 

[madscientist451]

truth be told I'm actually opening a LHBS. So I'm mad brewing my recipes as extract kits for testing. We will have our 'own' kits so it's important they don't suck lol

Since you're testing extract recipes that "don't suck" why not use Marris Otter LME along with pale malt DME and specialty grains?
Since you'll be running a store, you should be able to get the Munton's Or Malliard Maris Otter Extract:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00XPVG9K6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B8VGTGO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[stylus1274]

Since you're testing extract recipes that "don't suck" why not use Marris Otter LME along with pale malt DME and specialty grains?
Since you'll be running a store, you should be able to get the Munton's Or Malliard Maris Otter Extract:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00XPVG9K6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B8VGTGO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I tried my best not to mention the store part because I knew it would lead down a path of other suggestions and comments. But every time I came up with a way not to mention it I was hit with another one lol. So I buckled

Believe me I have already thought about the scenario of mixing the two but because of cost, logistics, shelf life and packaging the kits will strictly be DME period.

Now I may entertain the idea of mixing them down the road but as of right now it will be a no-go.

Thank your for the suggestion and links Madscientist.

 

[stylus1274]

I forgot to mention I did an all LME brown ale with Mallard Malts and it was friggin' terrible. I had a bad perception of LME before this and this doesn't help.

Of course it could have been the recipe and a million other things. But every kit/recipe I've ever made that was LME based just was not that good. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it

 

[madscientist451]

Yeah, I had similar experiences with all LME experimental beers. However, I've had good success when using LME as an ingredient in the brew.
I have to think that if all LME was useless crap, then they wouldn't
be able to sell it and then they wouldn't make it either.
But I think you are on the right track, trying to find a combination that is worth making.
A DME brew just isn't going to have the richness of flavor that an all grain beer with Maris Otter has.
Something to try: Use some Maris Otter as a steeping grain along with your specialty malts and DME base malt. Perhaps you can get some flavor out of it.

 

[stylus1274]

A DME brew just isn't going to have the richness of flavor that an all grain beer with Maris Otter has.
Something to try: Use some Maris Otter as a steeping grain along with your specialty malts and DME base malt. Perhaps you can get some flavor out of it.

Now that is a good suggestion. I didn't think of steeping some MO with the specialties. Or possibly I'll do a partial mash. Not all kits will be straight extract. A few will be partial mashes.

I wish I would have thought of this sooner as my order just shipped and there is no MO in it lol....maybe my local shop has some

 

[madscientist451]

I didn't think of steeping some MO with the specialties. Or possibly I'll do a partial mash. Not all kits will be straight extract. A few will be partial mashes.

I thought about this some more and decided to hunt around and see what I can find about using base malts to help extract brews. Here's an article where they talk about using base malt to help with aroma of extract brews:

http://beerandwinejournal.com/add-base-malts-to-your-extract-beers/

Chris Colby covered the subject for BYO magazine, again the aroma component is discussed:

https://byo.com/malt/item/2543-converting-to-partial-mash

And Brulosophy did a comparison between All LME Maris Otter and
All Grain Maris Otter (Crisp Floor Malted):

http://brulosophy.com/2014/07/21/extract-vs-all-grain-exbeeriment-results/

I was somewhat surprised that more than half of the tasting panel (57%) preferred the extract (All LME) brew. I was also surprised that the all LME beer finished at 1.011, my LME experiments, where I DIDN"T use 100% base malt extract, wouldn't ferment that low.
Also mentioned is that a 5 gallon batch with all Maris Otter extract cost $28 versus $11 for the all grain (purchased in bulk).
So if you make your kits with more grain and less extract, you can bring the price down.
He also talks about a survey he did that gives some interesting information about how homebrewers got started. 59% said they used extract and steeping grains, 22% said all extract.
Although I have never used an ingredient kit, it appears that many others HAVE used them so The OP's experiments in making better extract kits could pay off.
My limited experience with extracts has made me not want to use them except in certain circumstances, and I'm thinking the only all extract beer I would like would be a hop forward beer, or maybe something with a fruit or yeast character. But I still think extract is worth experimenting with.

 

[stylus1274]

I thought about this some more and decided to hunt around and see what I can find about using base malts to help extract brews. Here's an article where they talk about using base malt to help with aroma of extract brews:

http://beerandwinejournal.com/add-base-malts-to-your-extract-beers/

Chris Colby covered the subject for BYO magazine, again the aroma component is discussed:

https://byo.com/malt/item/2543-converting-to-partial-mash

And Brulosophy did a comparison between All LME Maris Otter and
All Grain Maris Otter (Crisp Floor Malted):

http://brulosophy.com/2014/07/21/extract-vs-all-grain-exbeeriment-results/

I was somewhat surprised that more than half of the tasting panel (57%) preferred the extract (All LME) brew. I was also surprised that the all LME beer finished at 1.011, my LME experiments, where I DIDN"T use 100% base malt extract, wouldn't ferment that low.
Also mentioned is that a 5 gallon batch with all Maris Otter extract cost $28 versus $11 for the all grain (purchased in bulk).
So if you make your kits with more grain and less extract, you can bring the price down.
He also talks about a survey he did that gives some interesting information about how homebrewers got started. 59% said they used extract and steeping grains, 22% said all extract.
Although I have never used an ingredient kit, it appears that many others HAVE used them so The OP's experiments in making better extract kits could pay off.
My limited experience with extracts has made me not want to use them except in certain circumstances, and I'm thinking the only all extract beer I would like would be a hop forward beer, or maybe something with a fruit or yeast character. But I still think extract is worth experimenting with.

I'm the OP Madscientist

I am surprised to hear that too about the preference of LME. I never reached that low of a FG either. Maybe it's just us lol

When trying to sell brew supplies and make money from a store you can't ignore that 59% use kits. That is a HUGE number. That's the focus here.

The brown ale is just one kit out of many. But I need it to be delicious. The few kits I've tried from other stores have sucked. So hopefully I can get this nailed down.

Thanks for sharing the links/info. You are appreciated

 

[stylus1274]

So Madscientist I read through the article from Brulosophy and the biggest thing that stood out was color. Especially using a LME. Wow the difference is crazy.

With a brown ale I suppose it doesn't matter much but with other recipes I want to be as close to the SRM as possible and DME surely helps with that.

 

[ericbw]

I honestly think that technique is a greater influence on the beer than the ingredients (LME, DME, or grain). I have made crappy extract and crappy grain beers. Then I got better (better control of fermentation, better yeast pitches, better yeast choices, etc.) and I have made better grain and extract beers.

The Brulosophy guys making an extract beer might just be better than most other people's beers because of their level of experience. The color difference is notable, obviously.

 

[stylus1274]

I honestly think that technique is a greater influence on the beer than the ingredients (LME, DME, or grain). I have made crappy extract and crappy grain beers. Then I got better (better control of fermentation, better yeast pitches, better yeast choices, etc.) and I have made better grain and extract beers.

The Brulosophy guys making an extract beer might just be better than most other people's beers because of their level of experience. The color difference is notable, obviously.

This is a good point and for the most part I agree with it. However, I think recipes follow the same suit. There is no denying a recipe when it is good and vice versa.

 

[madscientist451]

To some extent, I agree with ericbw, my extract experiments were failures mostly because I wasn't all that familiar with using extract and really didn't use it properly.
In the Brulosophy experiment, they made a decent LME beer because they used the More Beer Marris Otter Base malt. No added crystal or anything else, except hops. Yes, he had a solid yeast handling routine, that surely helped with the attenuation, But I'm thinking its the 100% MO malt that made the difference.