Lowering Sediment - Pre-Soaking...

[Bassman2003]

Hello,

After 12 years of batch sparging I have made the switch to BIAB, which is actually BIAC with my setup. I have a SS basket/false bottom that fits inside my Sanke keg. My big hangup with BIAB brewing is all of the sediment that ends up in the boil kettle. My setup is complex, so I do not want to go too far into it but my goal is to eliminate sediment in the boil kettle.

It seems to me that most of the sediment comes from when you first dump the grain in. In my process I dump the grain in, stir and let it sit for 15 min before I turn the recirc pump on and get to firing up the heating elements. By this time everything is puffed up and seems to play nicer with recirculation.

So I was thinking today, what if I left the grain in the bucket and added three or so gallons of strike water and let it sit there for 15 minutes? Then add it to the mash. The grain would be expanded and the chance for massive sediment would decrease.

Does this sound like sound thinking?

(if you think sediment is not something to worry about, that is fine but please do not try to steer the thread in that direction. Thank you).

Thoughts? I was always very pleased with how clear my wort would run from my cooler to the boil kettle. Not only do I not want husk material being boiled but sediment is not good for heating elements.

Thanks for your input!

 

[pricelessbrewing]

That might help, but I think a better and simple solution would be to either recirculate all the wort, mash in a bag in a cooler, or get a finer bag weave so it allows less grain particles.

It might also help if you sorta filter your grains to remove any flour that is present.

 

[Gavin C]

I use a double bag. I don't see the sediment you are describing.

 

[Gavin C]

Another idea would be to moisten the grain prior to milling to minimize finer particulate and keep the husks intact.

A coarser crush closer to a conventional 3 vessel setup might also help you reach your goal. The trade-off being a lower efficiency perhaps.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for your replies. I am using a Wilser bag inside my BIAC. Although these bags look very fine, they do let a lot of stuff through. My very first BIAB was a hefeweizen and I was shocked with the pile of sediment in my boil kettle. I have seen YouTube videos of similar sediment, so I am not crazy in thinking it is too much.

Have you compared single bag vs double bag? How much does the double bag help and are they different material at all?

 

[Gavin C]

I have not compared the two as I have always used a double bag. Bought two at the outset from NB and used them every brew.

There is definitely a clearer wort to be had with a mash tun and a vorlauf judging by the images people post so I cannot claim clearer wort after lautering.

but I don't see a lot of debris in the kettle aside from break material and a bit of pellet hops that escape my spider.

Perhaps my version of not much crud, another might view as a lot.

 

[JPicasso]

I do not see the sediment you are describing either, probably because I brew at night, and just dump everything from the kettle into the fermenter.

Since switching to BIAB, do you mill finer? BIAB crushes tend to create more flour.

I think the idea of wetting the grains a bit (not soak, I think there are posts around here regarding "conditioning" the grains) and giving them time to absorb the bit of water you mix in before the crush is a good plan.
If you're using a corona mill that might not help all that much, but a normal roller mill would probably respond favorably.

It maybe be helpful to explain a bit more why you're trying to limit sediment in the kettle. We could just tell you "don't worry about it" but you're already knowing that's not helpful. Maybe BIAB is just not compatable with less kettle sediment, but if you explain a bit more why you're avoiding it, maybe we can help with an alternative so that you can work around the sediment.

 

[Bassman2003]

Hello,

I made the switch last year and have kept all of my practices the same. The process is great and my efficiency want up. All is good outside of sediment in the kettle. Since I have an electric setup, I am wary of burning up the elements or scorching the wort as all of the sediment laying around the bottom of the kettle restricts the heat flow away from the elements.

Also, I just do not like the idea of boiling grain particles. I am aware this can be a relax and have a homebrew situation for many, but from my point of view BIAB is an adapted brewing method. The separate mash tun approach was made just for this reason, to separate the wort from everything else.

I often read about people trying so hard to avoid tannins yet boiling grain particles is not an issue? Does not make sense to me.

I have attached a screenshot from a YouTube video of a guy brewing hefeweizen with a BIAB setup. This shows his fermenter right after he pitches his yeast. I don't think anybody would disagree that this is a lot of sediment. I do not know the bag he is using but my experience is not that far off.

Now, on to my method tweak.

My thought was to basically start the mash in my grain bucket before dumping into the kettle. I would heat the strike water then just add some of it to the milled grain. Let it sit for 15 minutes then pour in. The hope would be that the soaked up grain would stay in the bag more so than a straight dry pour. I usually do this 15 minute rest anyway before turning my pump on and treat it as a high protein rest around 131f.

I am brewing next week so I will give it a shot.

 

[Gavin C]

This is what I get in my FV as typical for a 5.5 gallon batch in the FV.

Crash Cooled and ready to keg.

 

[Balloonknot]

wow is that a 5.5 or 6.5 gal carboy? That seems like a heavy load of sediment! I normally see what Gavin has in his pic.

 

[TexasWine]

I have attached a screenshot from a YouTube video of a guy brewing hefeweizen with a BIAB setup. This shows his fermenter right after he pitches his yeast. I don't think anybody would disagree that this is a lot of sediment. I do not know the bag he is using but my experience is not that far off.

Is this guy dumping everything from the kettle into the fermenter? For some reason I doubt this is all sediment and includes a lot of protein material from the breaks.

 

[Bassman2003]

He had a bazooka screen in his boil kettle.

This might be just a wheat beer thing though. Wheat makes more powder as it is a harder kernel.

 

[Bassman2003]

Just wanted to update this thread.

I milled my grain in a bucket then added 2-3 gallons of 145f water and did a high protein rest inside the bucket. I then dumped the contents in my BIAB mash and went right to my sacc. rest.

Sediment was almost non-existent! When I was recirculating at mashout I took a lot of samples and all I could find was very, very fine haze-like particles. The kind that are the size of pellet hops at the end of the boil. Basically almost clear wort, nothing of any size. Great stuff!

I might try putting some sort of filter like a 70 micron paper grease filter during mashout to see if I can get it clear. But this is way better than dumping the grain in the kettle from the start.

Letting the grain puff up really stopped anything from going through the bag. This might only need 5 minutes. I did 15.

 

[Bobby_M]

Sounds like the kind of process that negates the simplicity of BIAB.

 

[Bassman2003]

A little, but not too much. The grain is already in a bucket, I just added some water to it before dumping in the kettle.

 

[DurtyChemist]

Sounds like the kind of process that negates the simplicity of BIAB.

This. I use super moss and wait 30 minutes after a boil to let everything settle. Add some gelatin which is cheap at Brewchatter and lasts a long time and my beers are good to go. I haven't seen sediment more than a half gallon in a long time and I'm getting 70% brew house efficiency without much effort.

 

[Gavin C]

Glad to hear things worked out well for you. Did you have any difficulty calculating the strike temperature prior to adding the bucket mash.

 

[ArcLight]

I BIAB and crush finely, and do get more "gain dust". While some of it enters my fermentor, it's nothing especially noticeable. I have a fine, not coarse, bag.

My understanding of Tannins is they reside in the husk, which is staying behind in the bag.
If Tannins were a problem with BIAB I think there would be a lot more discussion about it.

I've never had anywhere near the trub as shown on the picture above. It's almost as if the brewer used many ounces of hops and transferred all of them to the fermentor. Or the BIAB bag tore. Break material wouldn't account for that.


I would definitely not pre-wet my grain. Grain conditioning is needed fro traditional mashes, not BIAB.

 

[doug293cz]

Tannins are extracted when your pH is above about 6. Keep your pH in the mid 5's and you won't have issues. In decoction mashing some of the grain, along with husks, is boiled and added back to the mash. If this can be done without excessive tannins, then it takes more than husks + high temp to extract tannins.

Brew on

 

[Bassman2003]

Glad to hear things worked out well for you. Did you have any difficulty calculating the strike temperature prior to adding the bucket mash.

Actually it was very easy in Beersmith. Since the grain was the total batch size, I just went to the infusion calculator and tried to get 2-3 gallons to hit a target of 131f. I heated up the rest of the water in the kettle so I would be pretty close to 152f for my sacc. rest after adding in.

So this is really starting the mash in a bucket instead of "pre-soaking". My electric heating elements were very clean after the boil. The only real pain was that pouring the mash resulted in a lot of splashing because the water level was lower to start with.