Low hop aroma with High Hopped Beers Issue!

[Hudini56]

So my last 2 attempts at some pretty hearty hopped beers, very low hop aroma. Both batches hops are coming across very muted. Cant figure out why! Heres my recipe for batch 1

2 row 18#
white wheat #3
carapils #2
crystal 20L 1#

fwh Apollo .3oz
flame out apollo 1oz
wp citra 2oz 60min 185deg
wp citra 2oz 40min 165deg
wp citra 2oz 20min 145deg
60min mash at 156deg
60min boil
split into 2 5 gal ferms
citra 1 oz 6 days each added to primary at 48hours
trans to secondary day 8
citra 1 oz 6 days each
trans to keg
centennial 1oz in keg each

yeast - 1 ferm s04 1L starter
1 ferm wyeast 1318 london ale 1L starter

Ferm temp 68 deg start within 12 hours, no noticeable activity after 48 hrs.
og 1.063 - fg 1.018 and 1.017

Force carb in keg. Cold 45 deg.

After 10 days in keg at 12psi carb was good, lacing good, color hazy and very east coast ipa style, but lacked hop aroma big time. I thought I would get a good hop bomb from this recipe. But it is very muted.

The only variable I have is water profile. I dont know what the profile is. I have a cold spring locally where I got my water from. Its free clean water. So I use it. I do add perfect PH to my water in the HLT.

I did another batch using my well water, different hop profile, Citra apollo and simcoe, grain bill slightly diff. Used propagated conan yeast, ferm at 66deg and similiar results. Muted aroma.

My local brew store is a busy store, and hops rotate all the time, so I dont think theyre old hops, smell perfect prior to usage. My sanitation is up to par

Brewing on a 3 Keggle system with pumps, plate chiller, whirlpool arm in kettle.

Shake buckets to aerate method.

Thoughts? Longer dry hop time? Could it be my water? Could it be my temps?

 

[day_trippr]

I'd start here and see how to get the water checked out - and straightened out if necessary for future batches.

Then look for anything in your post-fermentation handling that could be introducing oxygen, like when transferring between fermentors, cold-crashing, and packaging. Oxygen will knock the hell out of the most volatile characters first, then will take down deeper and deeper flavor characters until there's not much left...

btw, I feel sorry for that poor ounce of Centennial

Cheers!

 

[Hudini56]

Thanks for the link. Will check that out. I was thinking I should be purging my secondary and kegs with co2. Will start that on my next batch. Thinking of getting to oxygen aeration next. Obviously doing all my transfers via syphon. Thank you!!

That cent won't b there next time around for this recipe

 

[day_trippr]

For sure, purge your kegs, particularly if you're force-carbing and not using yeast and primer. The latter method does have the marked advantage of O2-scavenging yeast activity, while the former will have little of that going on, so oxygen exposure can take a major toll.

For purging a keg, a highly effective method is fill it completely with sanitized water with the lid on through the Out post until it comes out the PRV. Then set it on a bench/table, attach your CO2 line to the gas post, pop the PRV a few times to flush that bit of head space out, then lock the PRV closed and push the sanitizer through the Out post and back to your holding vessel on the floor.

No need to use much pressure - think of just back-filling the head space while siphoning. The lower the pressure the less CO2 used. I usually set the reg for a ~.5 psi, pour a beer and put some music on in the shop while I wait.

As for transfers between fermentors: you should give some thought to not doing that at all. There's rarely a good reason for using a "secondary" fermentor, and taken against the oxidation thing, even less so. You can do all your dry hopping in the primary, works just fine, and the beer will clear no slower than having been racked an extra time...

Cheers!

 

[Hudini56]

I've been debating the no secondary with a friend homebrewer of mine for years. He is all about secondary, and I couldn't see a reason why..I've done a couple batches with no secondary, and had no issues. But fell back into the "norm".

As far as pressure yea I'm carb at 11 or 12 and pouring at 7 or so.

Like the keg purge method! Effective and simple.

I'm brewing a big hopped ipa monday, 30 ounces total hop, and 23# grains. 10 gal. Going to go back to my old ways and stick with just a primary. Will purge the kegs as you mentioned.

Using my "conan" strain again with a triple starter = 3 steps .040 1litre each. And a s04.

Ferm temp should be low 60s this time for 2 days, then upping it to 68 or so.

Thanks for all the info. Glad to be apart of this community. Trying to lend my help to others, and loving getting the feedback from you all.

CHEERS!

 

[Hudini56]

Skipped the transfer to secondary on my last NE ipa. Heavy dry hop in primary for 10 days. 2 Oz citra into each keg. For kegging I purged each keg prior to filling by cleaning and sanitizing with idofer then pouring the idofer out via my tap. Leaving me what should be a completely purged keg. After 9 days in keg, still very low to none hop aroma. I'm beginning to think it's my water. Setting up to have a full water test done asap. Wasting a lot on hops, and getting nothing in return!! Good news is my base beer is awesome, just missing the hop aroma..

 

[homebrewdude76]

I have always had the same issue. I just racked a bitter and no hop aroma.

 

[Smellyglove]

Skipped the transfer to secondary on my last NE ipa. Heavy dry hop in primary for 10 days. 2 Oz citra into each keg. For kegging I purged each keg prior to filling by cleaning and sanitizing with idofer then pouring the idofer out via my tap. Leaving me what should be a completely purged keg. After 9 days in keg, still very low to none hop aroma. I'm beginning to think it's my water. Setting up to have a full water test done asap. Wasting a lot on hops, and getting nothing in return!! Good news is my base beer is awesome, just missing the hop aroma..

My experience is that you lose a lot of aroma if leaving dryhops in for more than five days. Especially if you added them before/during volatile fermentation.

Next time I'd A: Dryhop for five days, then cold crash or transfer. After day five it will start to be more taste than aroma.

B: If you want dryhops for taste, but alsso aroma. Dryhop twice, with the second addition being five days from packaging/cold crashing. Do not transfer to any form of secondary.

 

[plazola86]

You need way more dry hops for a hop bomb. 3oz of dry hops (1oz a charge) isn't going to do much. Try two charges with 3oz. One charge when fermentation is almost complete, the second two days before cold crashing or transferring to a keg. After the transfer to the keg check the aroma, if you still want more then add another charge to the keg. You want a lot of aroma? You need a lot of dry hops! Simple as that

 

[DemonsRun]

I'll second the no secondary, and the multiple hop additions 10 days before kegging and 5 days before kegging. sometimes Ill do 1 massive dry hop 7 days out (5 days at 68F and two days cold crash)., but only if I'm feeling lazy.

 

[jerbrew]

In an IPA I dry hop hop for 5 days and keg with more hops. IPAs don't last long in my place which is good because freshness is key. I've had them from brew day to kicked in 3 weeks. A usual dry hop is about 4-6 oz in primary depending on the beer and hops and then half again in the keg. Maybe it's overkill maybe not. I like the result and the aroma is fantastic. The key to getting what you want here is to not be scared of really dry hopping the crap out of it, reducing your dry hop time, and eliminating oxygen exposure.

How are you transferring to your keg? Is it a closed transfer like this?

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1483112715.594703.jpg

Beer into c02 purged keg and c02 from keg into carboy headspace. It may be that you're getting a lot more oxygen in you beer than you think and by allowing it to sit in your keg time and oxidation is ridding you of delicious hop aroma.

 

[grundlepunch]

I am local to you ( I used to live 10 min from willi ) and brewed similar IPAS with my well water and had tons of hop aroma. I dont think its your water or your hops, i assume you are getting them from zoks.

Like others have mentioned it might be something in your process. Another thought is you might be over critical of your own brew. have other people thought the same? I am willing to come over and test for you! haha

 

[Hudini56]

My transfer is not c02 from primary to keg. but I try and keep everything covered as much as possible - I go through my airlock hole in the primary and do not remove lid, and keg is open lid enough to insert racking hose. As for my dry hopping I thought I was hitting it with enough. The original post had my first ne ipa - the last one I am reffering to now was hopped like this

20-5min .5oz falc flight, 170-150-130deg 20 min hop stands/whirlpooling with 3oz citra each stand, 3 days primary at 62 deg, move up to 68deg with 4 oz simcoe (now split 10 gallon brew into 2 5 gallon) 7 days, into keg 2oz citra each keg cold crash and force carb at 8psi 5 days, 20 psi 3 days, back to 8 psi. Carb is perfect, body of the beer is amazing, and aroma is muted at best. Had some friends sample, and they agree, needs more aroma. I will go at again, and adjust to the 5 day schedule, and maybe a heavier dry hopping. Grundlepunch, if youre ever up in the chaplin area, send a message, be happy to share a beer.

 

[bbrim]

I would recommend cutting the carapils down and reducing the mash temp. 1.017-18 has quite a bit of residual sugar which tends to mute hop flavors and aromas a bit. If you can get your FG down around 1.010-12 it should help bring the hops forward. I also second taking a look at water chemistry. Good luck with the hops.

 

[Hudini56]

Ok, yes mashing 155 156, and dosing the carapils pretty heavy. My thought was higher fg bigger body, but I am gaining more understanding into that side of things. Attached is a pic of my last split 10 gallon. Left is s04 and right is my heady topper yeast. What a difference.

View attachment 1483152037500.jpg

 

[Hudini56]

For dry hopping is a total of 6 ozs low or high? Or just not enough to have that punch in the face hop aroma? And yes I'm looking for that over the top holy hell hop aroma! Just for fun. Not trying to emulate tree house or trillium, but it's always nice when that hop aroma resin body whatever the hell they're doing happens.

 

[aeviaanah]

London ale 3 with lots of dry hop

 

[brewstergalVT]

I've not used Wyeast 1318 but it looks like it's a high flocculator and my experience with high flocculating yeast is that they strip out hop aromas (White Labs 007 is my go to high flocculating British yeast). So if you're up for changing the yeast to something that is a moderate flocculating yeast like Wyeast 1056/White Labs 001 you may find you get more hop aroma.

Another suggestion is pushing back your hop additions in the kettle. Besides a bittering addition, I only do a 10 minute, 5 minute and KO/flame out addition and then once I've chilled the wort down to about 160 (I use an immersion chiller) I add more hops, let them sit 10 minutes, then finish cooling . Make that last addition the biggest addition, the equivalent of what you put in for 10 and 5 minutes. I know you're using a plate chiller so the partial chill can't really work for you but still, try moving your hop additions to the very end.

I agree with all that say skip the secondary. The only time I'd been doing it was for IPA's for the dry hopping. Then I moved to using a hop bag in the keg which worked fine but I've started dry hopping in the secondary and have been very pleased with the results. I add hops as fermentation starts to slow but is still active. The only issue is with racking. I have to attach a small sanitized hop bag to the bottom of my siphon to prevent hop particles from going into the keg (clogged poppet, headaches, etc).

 

[Hudini56]

I can do partial chill, just let the.pumps run wort through the chiller but shut the water off. If i.need to I have added heat to hold temps, last brew day it was 30deg outside so heat was a must. This is all great info! Waiting on my water test results before my next batch. Thanks everyone!

 

[Hudini56]

Here's my setup

View attachment 1483313295534.jpg

 

[Hudini56]

Got my water results today from Ward - Posted them to the Chemistry section of the forum. But I thought I would add it here as well.. I think it explains a lot.. Even a rough run through Bru N Water puts my levels into the very malty category.

ph 7.6
na 8
k 3
ca 25
mg 3
CaCo3 75
NO3-N .4
SO4-S 3
CI 30
CO3 <1.0
HCO3 56
CaCO3 46

Thoughts welcome!

 

[Smellyglove]

Got my water results today from Ward - Posted them to the Chemistry section of the forum. But I thought I would add it here as well.. I think it explains a lot.. Even a rough run through Bru N Water puts my levels into the very malty category.

ph 7.6
na 8
k 3
ca 25
mg 3
CaCo3 75
NO3-N .4
SO4-S 3
CI 30
CO3 <1.0
HCO3 56
CaCO3 46

Thoughts welcome!

It's stoll more about process and recipe, mostly process if you don't make some weird recipe which is bound to fail in the aroma department. The water is mostly (imo) just how "harsh" or "round" the taste will be, and doesn't affect aroma as much.

 

[Patrick87]

I think it's really as simple as adding more dry hops. 6-8oz of really aromatic hops (Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy, etc.) 8 days after pitching/5 days before cold crashing does it for me. I've never keg hopped, but another ounce or two in the keg after that should really make it shine.

 

[Smellyglove]

I think it's really as simple as adding more dry hops. 6-8oz of really aromatic hops (Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy, etc.) 8 days after pitching/5 days before cold crashing does it for me. I've never keg hopped, but another ounce or two in the keg after that should really make it shine.

If you have a "bad" process then adding more hops just mean that you add more of what spoils easily. It might be hoppy and nice right after, but maybe after bottle conditioning you're down to half of what you added when it comes to quality of the aroma.

For instance. If you're good at minimizing oxygen uptake you can get away with less hops, but the beer will still have more and fresher aroma than one which hasn't been gently treated when it comes to oxygen uptake.

 

[Patrick87]

If you have a "bad" process then adding more hops just mean that you add more of what spoils easily. It might be hoppy and nice right after, but maybe after bottle conditioning you're down to half of what you added when it comes to quality of the aroma.

For instance. If you're good at minimizing oxygen uptake you can get away with less hops, but the beer will still have more and fresher aroma than one which hasn't been gently treated when it comes to oxygen uptake.

Other than transferring to secondary, which the OP stated he didn't do on the last batch, his process seems fine. He's not bottle conditioning. My point is that if 3-4oz of dry hops isn't cutting it for the aroma he's looking for, 6-8oz will probably do the trick. Keg hopping in addition to the dry hops should keep the flavor/aroma fresh longer.

 

[Smellyglove]

Other than transferring to secondary, which the OP stated he didn't do on the last batch, his process seems fine. He's not bottle conditioning. My point is that if 3-4oz of dry hops isn't cutting it for the aroma he's looking for, 6-8oz will probably do the trick. Keg hopping in addition to the dry hops should keep the flavor/aroma fresh longer.

I guess you're right. Although 4oz in a 5g batch "should" be enough, at least to my nose. I'm just comparing with what OP said, "muted".

 

[Hudini56]

You need way more dry hops for a hop bomb. 3oz of dry hops (1oz a charge) isn't going to do much. Try two charges with 3oz. One charge when fermentation is almost complete, the second two days before cold crashing or transferring to a keg. After the transfer to the keg check the aroma, if you still want more then add another charge to the keg. You want a lot of aroma? You need a lot of dry hops! Simple as that

My last attempt I went with all late additions in the kettle - started at 20min to fo, with .5oz every 5 min of falc flight. Then wp 170-150-130 holding temps and adding 3oz citra at each step. At 72 hours in ferm added 4 oz of Citra, 7 days later 4 oz Simcoe - Keg in 5 days cold crash with 1 more oz of simcoe in keg. I have little to no noticable Aroma, I think I have more than 1 issue. Reviewing all my brewing techniques, water and timelines. I gotta be doing something wrong. I mashed high at 156deg - Think this could be one issue. Water might lend some very minimal effect, and my grist bill could be doing the same. Mash PH was high 7.5 if I go by my test results.. Making sense I guess?

 

[plazola86]

Yeah with that amount of hops you should be getting a hop bomb. I wouldn't think water would have THAT much to do with it but since you've already tried a hop schedule that should have gotten you good results I'd say its time to tackle the water issue. The easiest way to do it would be to use all distilled water and make up the water profile your looking for. Since you like hops I'd say you might like your sulfate in the upper levels around 300ppm, chloride 50-100ppm, calcium +/- 125. Adjust or hit your mash PH to 5.1 - 5.3. 156 mash temp is pretty damn high for an IPA IMO. I mash my IPA's from 150-148.

 

[homebrewdude76]

I whirlpool my wort with a pump. I have a hop back and counterflow chiller inline with my whirlpool.
I can basically add hops to the hopback at any point in time. I typically add them at the same time I turn on the chiller water, and they remain in the hop back throughout the entire chill cycle. My water is not that cold, so I have to whirlpool and chill before I go to the fermenter. Any issue with my setup?