Looking to go electric and could use some advice

[Anchors_n_Ales]

Hello Everyone!

So like many people before me have done, I have been scouring this forum and trying to gather as much info on electric brewing as I can. I am hoping to be able to start my upgrade in the next couple of months and think I have narrowed it down to the attached diagram.

My vision is a two vessel system with a small rims tube to maintain my mash temp and larger element in my HLT/BK. From looking at the diagram it looks like both elements are capable of firing at once. The notes also say that the power supply is 240v 30amps. My question is, is a 30 amp circuit capable of handling a 4500 and 1500 watt element firing at once or would this require 50 amp service? I know PJ usually adds an interlock in his drawings if the elements are not supposed to fire at the same time.

My next question is, is there any setup out there that is capable of firing two elements at once on a 30 amp circuit? And if so, would the element in the HLT/BK be large enough to boil 12 gallons of wort? I brew mostly 5 gallon batches but do like to do the occasional 10 gallon batch so I am really looking for a system flexible enough to do both.

Any insight you guys/gals can throw my way will be appreciated and thanks to everyone that has posted in this forum so far. I have already learned a ton!

Mike

 

[Bensiff]

Anyone correct me, but IIRC you generally want to go to only 80% capacity, so running 6000W of elements on a 30 amp circuit at 240V would put you in around 83-84%. You can play around with this by doing something like running an element on your RIMS at 120V so you are using lower wattage which would give you the benefit of running both items on a 30 amp circuit, keeping you with a safe overhead, and lowering the watt density of your RIMS.

 

[Anchors_n_Ales]

Bensiff, thanks for the reply! So if I run a 1000 watt 120v element in my rims tube and convert the rims receptacle to 120v by removing the black wire from the hot terminal and moving it to the neutral terminal then I should be good. Do I have this right or do I need to do like some others that I have seen and run two dedicated circuits for the elements?

 

[Bensiff]

Do your research to figure out exactly how it is accomplished, I have never done it; but, know you can run a 240V element off of 120V, it is not linear though, meaning, it cuts the wattage by more than half. You would have to look up the specifics though.

How I would set something like that up would be to run a 10/4 mainline into the panel (that gives you the neutral line so you can split off for 120v). The neutral and ground go to terminal blocks and the two hots go into a contactor. From the contactor you can send one of the hots (black) to a terminal block for feeding other 120v needs and take the red straight to your element contactors in series, or take the red to its own hot terminal block and run in series. I have gone both ways.

I'd read through Kal's electric brewery website to start building a foundation of how things go together as he explains them well and he is explaining them in terms of building a brewing control panel, so it helps to make even more sense and give you a point to do further research to figure out where you need to develop more knowledge.

Also, invest in good wiring tools if you have not. Ratcheting crimpers, wire stripper, wire cutters, etc...if they all those come in one tool for $10 its not something you want to build a panel with.

 

[doug293cz]

Anyone correct me, but IIRC you generally want to go to only 80% capacity, so running 6000W of elements on a 30 amp circuit at 240V would put you in around 83-84%. You can play around with this by doing something like running an element on your RIMS at 120V so you are using lower wattage which would give you the benefit of running both items on a 30 amp circuit, keeping you with a safe overhead, and lowering the watt density of your RIMS.

The 80% rule is pretty controversial around here. Code requires no more than 80% continuous load vs. the rating of the breaker/wiring. What I have heard electricians say is that "continuous" means more than 3 hrs straight. This is unlikely to occur with a typical homebrew system. Personally, I'd be comfortable with a 30 amp service for a 6000W intermittent load.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Do your research to figure out exactly how it is accomplished, I have never done it; but, know you can run a 240V element off of 120V, it is not linear though, meaning, it cuts the wattage by more than half. You would have to look up the specifics though.

...

Power (W) is equal to V^2 / R, where R is the resistance of the heater. If you cut the voltage in half, the power of the heater is reduced by 4X.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

There is a much better controller available for brewing applications than the SYL-2352. Auber has just introduced the DSPR120, which is an upgrade of the DSPR110. Folks who have used both the SYL-2352 and the DSPR110/120 report much better temperature control (less overshoot) when mashing, and better uniformity of boil with the DSPR's.

Brew on

 

[Anchors_n_Ales]

Thanks for the replies guys, I have noticed a couple of topics that are pretty controversial around here. Another one being shunting the e-stop to ground (which is a no no in my world). I work as the Chief Engineer on a river boat so I'm pretty savvy when it comes to rewiring existing circuits and conducting some basic troubleshooting but building a complete system from the ground up is something I have never tackled. It also seems to me that shipboard wiring is a completely different animal from shore side.

I should have mentioned that this is my basic plan and that the specific components listed aren't necessarily what will be included in the build. I did look at the DSPR120 and planed on using that for my boil kettle but now that I have compared the prices I guess I'll get one for my rims tube as well. I guess I just figured the 2352 would be considerably cheaper.

Do either of you ever brew 10 gallon batches? I also want to make sure that a 4500 watt element would be able to bring 12-13 gallons of wort to a boil in a reasonable amount of time. If it wasn't I figured I might be able to drop my rims element to 1000watts and bump my boil element up to 5000 or 5500 watts.

Thanks again for all of the help and sorry for being so long winded.

 

[Bensiff]

I pretty much only brew 10+ gallon batches, I can get to a boil without much issue with a 5500W element. I will say that on larger boils it gets up to 208 pretty quick, and then lags as it pushes to a boil. But, my kettle is not insulated which would make all the difference in the world to speed up the ramp time. Once it is at a boil 5500W's is way more than enough.

 

[snowveil]

Do either of you ever brew 10 gallon batches? I also want to make sure that a 4500 watt element would be able to bring 12-13 gallons of wort to a boil in a reasonable amount of time. If it wasn't I figured I might be able to drop my rims element to 1000watts and bump my boil element up to 5000 or 5500 watts.

I can vouch that a 4500w element has no problems bringing a 10 gallon batch (12-13 preboil) up to a rolling boil. I've wrapped my kettle in reflectix and it has helped the heat up times considerably as well.

 

[milldoggy]

Your question about two 5500watt elements on a 30 amp system. Some have done this, but they need to wires as a slave and master I think is the term, so one can operate in the off time of the other. I boil at 59% on, so if I had this ability, be enough to hold a hlt at temp for a herms.

I think someone on the electric brewery forum posted their schematic.

 

[lschiavo]

Are you starting from scratch with the power feed or are you trying to utilize an existing receptacle? If you are running a new feed, I would just go with 50A. It gives you far more options without the complications of designing a system that is underpowered to start with.

I started by building an electric HERMS HLT. I ran 50A to that in case I wanted a second element which I installed a few months later and it's awesome. A while later I ditched the propane boil and ran a 30A feed for the electric BK. I have 5500W in there for 10g batches and that works great.

My system is three vessel in my detached garage and I use the HLT to heat my cleaning water (it's plumbed to my sink). I use it to heat water for plenty of other things too.

Like was mentioned, do your research. Make sure you get what you want from the start.

 

[Bensiff]

I much agree with Ischiavo on this. I built a modded version of a Kal 30 amp panel four or so years ago and am currently ripping it apart and switching it over to a 50 amp panel so I can do things like keep my sparge water heating while beginning my boil when the wort gets above the element in my BK or do back to back brews.

 

[Anchors_n_Ales]

I wish installing 50 amp service was an option for me but unfortunately I don't own the house. Also due to being in the military I have to move every 3-4 years so upgrading every place I move would get expensive. I'm not looking to do step mashes or anything so I figured a 30 amp panel will provide me a lot more flexibility from house to house. I also have 2 boys, my oldest is 2.5 yrs and my youngest 3 wks, so the more automated and shorter my brew day, the happier my wife stays and the more I get to brew. Besides I already told my wife in 10-15 years when I can finally retire the first thing I am doing when we buy a house is putting a brewery in it so I'll be able to go all out when that day comes.

 

[akthor]

I'm going to be running two 5500w elements at the same time off a 240v 50amp gfci circuit. My 81 yrs old electrician father in law insists I'll burn down the house. Though when I explain its the same thing as wiring a hot tub he sputters and stomps away.

Point is. Do what others have done and not burnt down their house. There will always be "alarmists" and the overly paranoid telling you not to do it or that you can't do it.

 

[Anchors_n_Ales]

Milldoggy, I'm not looking to run 2 5500w elements. My plan right now, I think I'm on about plan "X" by now, is to run 4500w to the BK and a 5500w @ 120v for my rims. This should give me a total of 5875w which will draw about 24.5 amps. So I'm sure the system will work I just want to make sure that it will work for what I want to do. i.e. not make my brew day longer, add some automation, and increase repeatability.

 

[milldoggy]

Your calc are off, that is a total of 31 amps. 1375/110 is 12.5 amps

 

[wilserbrewer]

Do you need to fire the rims tube and kettle element concurrently?

If possible, I'd prefer to see a 5500 in the kettle for 10 gallon batches. But if the 10 gallon batches are only occasional, the wait times and lesser boil intensity is not likely a deal breaker.

What size kettle are you using?

 

[doug293cz]

Your calc are off, that is a total of 31 amps. 1375/110 is 12.5 amps

You are correct*. OP would be better off staying with the 1500W @ 240V for the RIMS heater.

* Your math is slightly off. A heater rated for 5500W @ 240V would provide:

5500W * (110V ^ 2) / (240V ^ 2) = 1155.4W @ 110V, not 1375W
and would draw: 1155.4W / 110V = 10.5A
the same heater @ 120V would draw 11.5A
​

A 1500W @ 240V element would draw:

1500W / 240V = 6.25A​

Brew on

 

[milldoggy]

Sorry, I did it based on his watt calculations, either way, 30 amp circuit can run what he is looking to do

 

[Anchors_n_Ales]

Milldoggy, you are correct I was calculating everything based on 240v circuits. So I guess I need to stay 240v across the board. Thanks for pointing that out!

Wilserbrewer, I don't brew 10 gallon batches often but I do do them so if I'm going to take the plunge into electric I want the option. The occasional longer brew day isn't a deal breaker for me. Right now I'm brewing in a 20 gallon kettle, putting an element in it is going to be a little tight but not a hindrance. I do think that I'm going to add a float switch since my margin for error is so little.

Thanks again everyone for the replies, I have had this in the back of my mind for a while now but apparently I need to think it out a little more.

 

[milldoggy]

Milldoggy, you are correct I was calculating everything based on 240v circuits. So I guess I need to stay 240v across the board. Thanks for pointing that out!

Wilserbrewer, I don't brew 10 gallon batches often but I do do them so if I'm going to take the plunge into electric I want the option. The occasional longer brew day isn't a deal breaker for me. Right now I'm brewing in a 20 gallon kettle, putting an element in it is going to be a little tight but not a hindrance. I do think that I'm going to add a float switch since my margin for error is so little.

Thanks again everyone for the replies, I have had this in the back of my mind for a while now but apparently I need to think it out a little more.

They do make lower watt 240 volt elements

For instance https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000XPGGFU/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Anchors_n_Ales]

Ok so final plan...hopefully. I am going back to my plan from my first post. 1500w 240v element for rims tube (found one at brewhardware.com) 4500w 240v element for BK, two pumps, two PIDs. The only difference is I am going to build the panel for 50 amp service so if/when that becomes available all I have to do is switch out my elements.

Thanks again for everyone's help, I'm sure I'll have more questions along the way.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Ok, I have a little concern putting a 4500 in a 20 gallon kettle as heating losses increase pretty quickly as kettle size increases....

Sorry not trying to be a doubting Thomas, just hate to see you with an underpowered system. Maybe someone can confirm it works fine....and not reference a heating chart that neglects losses, actual field experience.

Since my question about not running the BK and rims tube concurrently wasn't answered perhaps it was a silly question?

Reason being that would allow you to go w a 5500w and still go 30A....

 

[Anchors_n_Ales]

Wilserbrewer, sorry I wasn't trying to ignore the question, I had an answer typed out but lost it. Being able to fire both elements at the same time is not necessary just desired. I would like to be able to heat sparge water while mashing to save time.

The 20 gallon kettle is a little oversized for the batch sizes I brew and I eventually see myself settling on a pair of 15 gallon pots but for now it's what I have. I am also concerned about using a smaller element in a large kettle but I think I'm going to give it a shot.

I'm not looking to do do step mashes so all the rims needs to do is maintain whatever temp I mash in at. If it doesn't work out then I can max out my BK element and just run one element at a time.

 

[mkirkland]

I run a 3 vessel electric RIMS system on a 240V 30a circuit. The RIMS tube is a 2000W 120V element and the HLT and BK are both 5500W 240V each. BUT the HLT and the BK are on a 3way switch so only 1 240V element can be on at any one time.